The more I try and logically wrap it, the less sense it makes Ashara threw herself off a tower

[Mister Smikes]

2 hours ago, James Steller said:

I mean, it's not like Edric was sent to the BWB after they were formed. His lord was caught up in the war and went rogue to protect the smallfolk

Beric never really "went rogue", since he died while Robert was still King.

As for UnBeric, he did not really go rogue to protect the smallfolk.  He persists in Beric's mission, because that's just the kind of zombie he is -- the kind that is driven by the oaths and missions he had in life - at least so says GRRM in an SSM.  However, defending the smallfolk was part of the mission Ned gave him.

[Mister Smikes]

On 5/6/2021 at 11:23 PM, Leonardo said:

Edric Dayne? And his nickname is Ned? That's far too uncanny. It has to be a reference to Ned ...

In this story the different people sometimes have the same name.  But Edric and Eddard are not even the same name, so it is a HUGE stretch to suppose that one is named after the other.   Edric is called "Ned" because "Ned" is short for "Edric"; and Eddard is called "Ned" because "Ned" is also short for "Eddard".  This merely mimics our real world where "Ned" is short for whole host of names such as "Edward", "Edwin", "Edgar" "Edmund" and "Benedict"

[Kolx]

Ashara probably faked her own death to support whatever cause Rhaegar had. It’s the only logical answer to me, her suicide story looks fishy and far too related to the lie of Jon being her son to be true. Also, George always avoids answering questions about her, so yeah, something happened that made her make up her death.

[Egged]

On 5/7/2021 at 11:30 AM, Lord Lannister said:

I always thought House Dayne as a whole was one giant red herring to detract the reader away from R+L=J. It offers the reader a simple explanation for Jon's mother with the speculation of Ned and Ashara coupled with Edric Dayne being his "milk brother." That explanation even comes with the bow tie of a legendary sword on top of it.

Yep, it was clearly setup for that but it didn't work.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 5/7/2021 at 9:23 AM, Leonardo said:

I don't think she was in love with Ned; if anything it was Brandon, and he died long before Ned got to Dorne. There would have been news... Maybe if Ned rejected her, but the story sounds a lot more like it was her and Brandon who may have hooked up; he did for Barbrey Dustin as it were, it's much more within his personality.

I dunno about the Lemore thing but I really think she was a key member of the Snow conspiracy... Something is going on with House Dayne. Edric Dayne? And his nickname is Ned? That's far too uncanny. It has to be a reference to Ned; even if it was just being honorable with Dawn, but I don't believe that either. Something. Is. Up.

From what we know thanks to Lady Barbrey is that Brandon was doing it all over the place, but he had a special thing on her (or so does she claim). However, when Lord Rickard arranged the betrothal between him and Catelyn, Brandon became 'obsessed' with her (for she was beautiful, I suppose), and eventually lost interest in her. So there actually is no reason to believe Brandon was still knocking on every door, especially if his own brother had a thing for that girl. That's probably why he arranged the dance between Ned and Ashara.

In light of this, I think Ashara faking her own death makes sense. The only person Ned ever told a name was Robert, and that name was Wylla. However, most people think Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother, and people obviously can't ask the dead. Yes, it's not really enough to fo such a thing, but maybe it lined up with 'future plans', if there ever was any, and Edric having the nickname might be a coincidence or proof that Eddard made no harm to House Dayne.

[Hippocras]

On 5/7/2021 at 8:23 AM, Leonardo said:

I don't think she was in love with Ned; if anything it was Brandon, and he died long before Ned got to Dorne. There would have been news... Maybe if Ned rejected her, but the story sounds a lot more like it was her and Brandon who may have hooked up; he did for Barbrey Dustin as it were, it's much more within his personality.

I dunno about the Lemore thing but I really think she was a key member of the Snow conspiracy... Something is going on with House Dayne. Edric Dayne? And his nickname is Ned? That's far too uncanny. It has to be a reference to Ned; even if it was just being honorable with Dawn, but I don't believe that either. Something. Is. Up.

Yep. Something's up. This is my guess:

Improbable as it may seem, maybe Aegon really is Prince Aegon. Which means that the baby that was killed by Clegane was NOT Aegon. So where might one find a convincing baby to swap with Prince Aegon? After all, his hair and eye colour were rather rare in Westeros. Maybe all along it has been the Blackfyre hints that were the red herrings, meant to drive overzealous fans too smart for their own good down a fascinating rabbit hole.

So imagine a mother learning what happened to her child, and the extreme grief she would have felt. Also, given what happened, there would have been an urgent need to make sure noone came looking for children of House Targaryen at Starfall. So they told the world instead that Ashara birthed a stillborn daughter. Dead and a girl. Nothing to look for here folks.

This theory of course does not require that Ashara died. If she truly did commit suicide, it is certainly believable if her child was brutally murdered, her brother killed, the great plans of Rhaegar and company of which she played an important part seemingly brought to naught. However if she lived and Aegon is alive, then she faked her death in order to help secure the alliances that were needed to keep the prince safe and secret. 

As for Ned, he killed the Kingsguard including Arthur in order to, he believed, rescue his sister. Once he reached Lyanna he learned that he had been mislead and that Lyanna was not a prisoner at all, and he had killed men he admired because of someone's lies. Suddenly he had a baby to feed and protect because Lyanna died. He needed help quickly but there was almost noone in the vicinity of Summerhall who could be trusted to know about that baby except for Ashara Dayne, who he knew had been part of Rhaegar's plans because of Harrenhal. So with the baby he headed to Starfall in secret, obtained Wylla the House Dayne wet-nurse to accompany him on his journey home to Winterfell to feed the baby. He promised those at House Dayne that he would protect Rhaegar's child from Robert by claiming Jon was his bastard, and House Dayne agreed to play along.

It seems possible to me that noone actually knew for certain who the father of Ashara's child was, they just knew she was pregnant and not married. This would be why so much importance is given to her various dance partners. It amounts to gossip and speculation that it must have be one of those who she danced with. And of course the dance partners are also a hint about who was probably involved with Rhaegar's plans.

 

[The hairy bear]

On 5/7/2021 at 8:23 AM, Leonardo said:

I don't think she was in love with Ned; if anything it was Brandon, and he died long before Ned got to Dorne. There would have been news... Maybe if Ned rejected her, but the story sounds a lot more like it was her and Brandon who may have hooked up;

The reason behind Ashara's supposed suicide can be something else than a broken heart. A possible scenario is that Ned went to Starfall and it was Ashara who revealed to him that Lyanna was being kept at the Tower of Joy with a guard of only three. Eddard would promise that he'd do everything he could to spare Arthur's life, but when he came back to Starfall with Dawn, she'd knew that she was responsible for her brother's death.

On 5/8/2021 at 8:14 PM, Nathan Stark said:

I think Ashara is in the Neck with Howland Reed. Meera is 16, old enough to have been born around the same time as Jon and Robb.

Meera, Robb and Jon were all born in 283 AC. Since the Battle of the Bells and the Sack of King's Landing also took place in 283, it means that there's no time for Howland Reed to come south to Starfall, impregnate Ashara, and have her give birth to Meera in the same year.

On 5/8/2021 at 10:34 PM, DisneyDoc2425 said:

Ashara is Howland Reeds' wife Jyanna (a name play for Jon and Lyanna). Their daughter is Meera Reed. Howland took her with him when he and Ned visited Starfall after the Tower of Joy incident. She needed to get away from Robert B's possible grasps after the rebellion.

I fail to see why Ashara would need to hide from Robert. The new Baratheon dynasty did not punish any of the loyalist houses that had lost the war, and they made everything they could to appease the Dornish.

To be honest, that's the main problem with the "Ashara is alive" theories. I can't see a good reason for her to disappear.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 5/8/2021 at 2:21 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Though I'd call that more acknowledging more than addressing. Even with the Ned connection it just seems a really bizarre thing to tell a kid. "Hey you and this other random bastard you don't know once nursed from the same teat years apart." Even if you're deliberately planting a misleading clue about Jon's parentage on the off chance he(or in this case the reader) happens to meet Edric Dayne, that's kinda just out there.

Remember that Ned Dayne believes Wylla is Jon's mother. It doesn't have to be necessary for anyone to explicitly tell him they milked from the same teat for him to draw that conclusion.

On 5/8/2021 at 4:14 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Kind of what I was getting at. He was with Dondarrion when all that went down. I get warding out young lords is something of a thing, but typically you want to do that in a more controlled environment with a house that's friendly to your cause. Beric was engaged to a Dayne I guess, but that's still a very odd choice to put your House's Lord out of all the possible choices.

I think the betrothal is pretty straightforwardly the explanation (in fact, I'd assume that the entire reason Martin had Beric be betrothed to a Dayne is to justify Ned being with him).

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 5/9/2021 at 6:27 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

From what we know thanks to Lady Barbrey is that Brandon was doing it all over the place, but he had a special thing on her (or so does she claim). However, when Lord Rickard arranged the betrothal between him and Catelyn, Brandon became 'obsessed' with her (for she was beautiful, I suppose), and eventually lost interest in her. So there actually is no reason to believe Brandon was still knocking on every door, especially if his own brother had a thing for that girl. That's probably why he arranged the dance between Ned and Ashara.

Brandon was only 14 or 15 when he was betrothed to Catelyn, I'm not sure where in the text it implies that he stopped fooling around after that or at any point.  There's several reasons why I'm skeptical of Ned + Ashara being a thing, but the top two are probably this: 1) Ned literally never thinks of Ashara in AGOT, he has no reaction whatsoever when Cersei throws her name in his face 2) In addition to his respect Ned that would seem odd if he hooked up with Ashara, and there's a section in ADWD where Barristan says that young girls prefer "fire" to "mud." Based on how he describes things, Ned is the quintessential mud man and Brandon is very much a fire man. It'd be odd for Barristan to have that perspective if the one girl he'd ever crushed on his life got with Mr. Mud.

On 5/9/2021 at 6:27 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

In light of this, I think Ashara faking her own death makes sense. The only person Ned ever told a name was Robert, and that name was Wylla. However, most people think Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother, and people obviously can't ask the dead. Y

We don't necessarily know that "most people" believe Ashara is Jon's mother. It was the big rumor around Winterfell according to Catelyn, but the only other place it's come up is Cersei's accusation to Ned, but she says it in the same breath that she accuses him of fathering Jon on a whore or a Dornish peasant he raped, so she clearly has no firm belief on the matter. People in the Three Sisters believe Jon's mother is the daughter of a local fisherman, and Ned Dayne believes it's Wylla despite also believing that Ned and Ashara had a thing.

[Daeron the Daring]

11 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Brandon was only 14 or 15 when he was betrothed to Catelyn, I'm not sure where in the text it implies that he stopped fooling around after that or at any point.  There's several reasons why I'm skeptical of Ned + Ashara being a thing, but the top two are probably this: 1) Ned literally never thinks of Ashara in AGOT, he has no reaction whatsoever when Cersei throws her name in his face 2) In addition to his respect Ned that would seem odd if he hooked up with Ashara, and there's a section in ADWD where Barristan says that young girls prefer "fire" to "mud." Based on how he describes things, Ned is the quintessential mud man and Brandon is very much a fire man. It'd be odd for Barristan to have that perspective if the one girl he'd ever crushed on his life got with Mr. Mud.

First of all, Lady Barbrey tells us that she had a special thing wih him, and altough Brandon was willing to take what he wants, including women, how do you imagine Lady Barbrey thinking this if he was fucking everyone around him?

The logical explanation to this is that altough he had many girls, he didn't fool around when he had a 'special' one like Barbrey Ryswell.

However, she claims that Brandon never wanted to marry Catelyn, which is rather false than the previous parts of her story for a simple reason: Catelyn tought he loved her. If he didn't want the martiage, it would've been at least sensable by others, I mean Catelyn. But this didn't happen.

Going forward: Yes, your explanation with fire and mud makes sense, but here's the thing: Everyone knows someone made Ashara pregnant at Harrenhall, Barristan claims she was dishonored, but that doesn't mean much in the light of Barristan's high morality. 

But the thing is, whether he was dishonored or not, it might not have been a Stark who did it. It's just that she looked for Stark, not that that Stark dishonored her.

And if Brandon simply fucked her, then Barristan can't consider this dishonoration, unless Brandon raped her, because Brandon was the betrothed one and Ashara wasn't. And if Brandon had Ashara, and someone like Barristan knows this (someone who had nothing to do with any of the two), how didn't others, including Catelyn, know it? Makes no sense, after all. Just think it trough.

11 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

We don't necessarily know that "most people" believe Ashara is Jon's mother. It was the big rumor around Winterfell according to Catelyn, but the only other place it's come up is Cersei's accusation to Ned, but she says it in the same breath that she accuses him of fathering Jon on a whore or a Dornish peasant he raped, so she clearly has no firm belief on the matter. People in the Three Sisters believe Jon's mother is the daughter of a local fisherman, and Ned Dayne believes it's Wylla despite also believing that Ned and Ashara had a thing.

The Stark soldiers spread the rumour around Winterfell, and Catelyn considered it a possibility, Cersei consideret it a possibility, etc. You can't say it isn't a widespread rumour, and in the light of Brandon raping Ashara, little sense this would make.

[Lady_Qohor]

16 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I fail to see why Ashara would need to hide from Robert. The new Baratheon dynasty did not punish any of the loyalist houses that had lost the war, and they made everything they could to appease the Dornish.

To be honest, that's the main problem with the "Ashara is alive" theories. I can't see a good reason for her to disappear.

Totally agree, nothing we've seen suggests that Ashara's life was in any danger after the war, which is why I can never buy the theory that she is Jyanna Reed - why hide that marriage? 

The only reason for her to fake her own death is if she was planning to go underground and get up to something dodgy. Say raising a secret Targaryen Prince. 

I don't know who Septa Lemore is and I kinda hope her name really is Lemore and she's a character in her own right. But if Ashara did fake her death then it would support the Lemore = Ashara theory. 

[Mister Smikes]

On 5/12/2021 at 12:51 AM, Lady_Qohor said:

I don't know who Septa Lemore is and I kinda hope her name really is Lemore and she's a character in her own right. 

I can't agree.  We are at a stage in the story where threads ought to start coming together, and not branching off in new directions.  I don't want a brand-new mystery involving a brand-new mystery character, who will develop in her own right and finally get her own POV in book 8.  If there is a mystery surrounding Lemore (and it seems that there is) I hope it connects with threads and people and mysteries we have already heard of.

Don't think she's Ashara, though.

 

[Hippocras]

On 5/11/2021 at 7:50 PM, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Remember that Ned Dayne believes Wylla is Jon's mother. It doesn't have to be necessary for anyone to explicitly tell him they milked from the same teat for him to draw that conclusion.

He used the term milk brother, which can mean the biological child of his wet nurse, as he believes, but can also mean a child of someone else who also had Wylla as a wet nurse. Edric was basically told that Jon was his milk brother at some point without being told specifically how or if Jon was related to Wylla.

 

19 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I can't agree.  We are at a stage in the story where threads ought to start coming together, and not branching off in new directions.  I don't want a brand-new mystery involving a brand-new mystery character, who will develop in her own right and finally get her own POV in book 8.  If there is a mystery surrounding Lemore (and it seems that there is) I hope it connects with threads and people and mysteries we have already heard of.

I agree. Whoever Lemore is she needs to tie into some story thread that was already there. But clearly there is some sort of secret identity to her as well. She is just as hidden as the rest of the people in Aegon's group.

 

On 5/12/2021 at 9:51 AM, Lady_Qohor said:

The only reason for her to fake her own death is if she was planning to go underground and get up to something dodgy. Say raising a secret Targaryen Prince. 

Ashara may very well have been involved in getting Aegon to where he is and in making arrangements for his safety, education, etc. and if she is alive that is very probably why. But I also have some doubts that she is Lemore.

[Lady_Qohor]

22 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I can't agree.  We are at a stage in the story where threads ought to start coming together, and not branching off in new directions.  I don't want a brand-new mystery involving a brand-new mystery character, who will develop in her own right and finally get her own POV in book 8.  If there is a mystery surrounding Lemore (and it seems that there is) I hope it connects with threads and people and mysteries we have already heard of.

Don't think she's Ashara, though.

 

That's fair enough. However, I would say that she doesn't have to be tied to a new plot line/mystery thread. She could just be a random world building background character that GRRM added stretch marks to in order to add a little colour. 

Lemore could just be Lemore and remain in the background for the rest of the series. 

In fact that would take up less of a word count than tying her to an existing characters/plot lines and seeing that reveal pay off. 

[LynnS]

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

"Even the bravest of your forebears kept his Kingsguard close about him in times of peril." Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. "What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore."

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

Why is it so important that she also go unrecognized?.  Is it possible that someone from Westeros might recognize her if  she calls attention to herself??  How does she know that Rhaegar kept the KG close to him?  Is she related to one of the KG?  

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 5/11/2021 at 10:57 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

First of all, Lady Barbrey tells us that she had a special thing wih him, and altough Brandon was willing to take what he wants, including women, how do you imagine Lady Barbrey thinking this if he was fucking everyone around him?

 

Are you really asking me if it's plausible that the medieval equivalent of an attractive, rich playboy could convince girls that he felt something special for them when this was not actually the case?

On 5/11/2021 at 10:57 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

However, she claims that Brandon never wanted to marry Catelyn, which is rather false than the previous parts of her story for a simple reason: Catelyn tought he loved her. If he didn't want the martiage, it would've been at least sensable by others, I mean Catelyn. But this didn't happen.

I don't recall Catelyn saying Brandon loved her. I think it's entirely plausible (and likely) that Brandon was fine with the marriage to Catelyn but didn't particularly care about her, and it's perfectly possible that he lied to Barbrey and said he didn't want to marry Cat to tell her what she wanted to hear.

On 5/11/2021 at 10:57 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

Going forward: Yes, your explanation with fire and mud makes sense, but here's the thing: Everyone knows someone made Ashara pregnant at Harrenhall, Barristan claims she was dishonored, but that doesn't mean much in the light of Barristan's high morality. 

Does "everyone" know that? Barristan's recollections are the first indication we get of Ashara potentially becoming pregnant at Harrenhal (though it's implied rather than explicitly stated that her pregnancy was the result of her "dishonor" at Harrenhal).

On 5/11/2021 at 10:57 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

But the thing is, whether he was dishonored or not, it might not have been a Stark who did it. It's just that she looked for Stark, not that that Stark dishonored her.

I'm aware of this interpretation, but I just don't think it makes sense given the text. The passage is all about Barristan's feelings for Ashara and he wonders if she would have turned to him instead of Stark had he won and crowned her. I think there's a pretty clear romantic implication there.

On 5/11/2021 at 10:57 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

And if Brandon simply fucked her, then Barristan can't consider this dishonoration, unless Brandon raped her, because Brandon was the betrothed one and Ashara wasn't.

Barristan is an old highborn guy. It makes perfect sense if he thinks a young noblewoman having consensual sex outside of marriage constitutes dishonor, it doesn't require rape to be involved.

On 5/11/2021 at 10:57 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

The Stark soldiers spread the rumour around Winterfell, and Catelyn considered it a possibility, Cersei consideret it a possibility, etc. You can't say it isn't a widespread rumour, and in the light of Brandon raping Ashara, little sense this would make.

You literally just repeated the examples I gave. We know it was a rumor at Winterfell, and we know Cersei's aware of it, but clearly she doesn't have any firm convictions on who Jon's mom is as she makes two other wild accusations. That's enough to say it's a rumor in Westeros, it's a big leap from there to "most people" believing Ashara is Jon's mother, especially when we have two examples of contrary rumors (in addition to Cersei's other possibilities).

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

He used the term milk brother, which can mean the biological child of his wet nurse, as he believes, but can also mean a child of someone else who also had Wylla as a wet nurse. Edric was basically told that Jon was his milk brother at some point without being told specifically how or if Jon was related to Wylla.

We don't know either way. Ned presents Wylla being Jon's mother as if it's common knowledge, he's surprised Jon never told Arya, let alone that Jon didn't even know. There isn't a basis at this point for concluding that he merely assumed Wylla was Jon's mother without actually being told she was.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

And now for something completely different.

I think Ashara died in King's Landing during the Sack. I think she is the one Gregor murdered in that nursery. 

Catelyn is the only one who mentions that Ned returned Dawn to Ashara. But in reality, we have no clue if he even saw her since he never brings it up. Ashara had an older brother. So for all intents and purposes, he is the one who should have received Dawn from Ned with an explanation as to what happened to Arthur.

I think she died, then to cover up for another Dornish woman whose survival impacts the story in a very big way, the Daynes were asked to put out the story that Ashara killed herself. So they would actually be protecting two secrets instead of just the one.

Maybe the story about the pregnancy was just that, a story. 

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

How does she know that Rhaegar kept the KG close to him?  Is she related to one of the KG?  

I mean she didnt say that, but still, interesting. TofJ was in Dorne. Thats also interesting. 

Its always been a mystery to me on how Ned knew where to find Lyanna, but old flings can look out sometimes. And how does this fling know where Lyanna is? Her brother, the noticeably absent knight. 

Convincing stuff, dabbling with treason/getting your brother killed are also good reasons for faking your death and self exiling/giving your life to God and becoming a septa