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Daenerys Mistakes in Slaver's Bay


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5 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Dany is going to bring fire and blood to the whole master class,

  • Volantis
  • Qarth
  • Tyrosh
  • Lys
  • Myr
  • Mantarys
  • Yunkai
  • Meereen
  • Astapor
  • all the Dothraki
  • the quasi-slave cities of Pentos and Qohor

Is she going to precisely burn the "master class" across a dozen regions and cultures?

Is it going to be obvious from dragonback, who they are? It's not called weapon of mass precision.

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14 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:
  • Volantis
  • Qarth
  • Tyrosh
  • Lys
  • Myr
  • Mantarys
  • Yunkai
  • Meereen
  • Astapor
  • all the Dothraki
  • the quasi-slave cities of Pentos and Qohor

Is she going to precisely burn the "master class" across a dozen regions and cultures?

Is it going to be obvious from dragonback, who they are? It's not called weapon of mass precision.

I mean, she already annihilated the master class of Astapor, one of the locations you cite.

The coalition of forces currently opposing her in Meereen is going down, hard, and she's going to topple Volantis, which is shown to already be on the verge of a slave uprising anyway. It's not hard to see how this could/will spread.

I don't know that it's going to touch every single location, but once you reach a certain point the whole region's trajectory has been changed and there's nothing one or two cities could do about it.

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1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

I mean, she already annihilated the master class of Astapor, one of the locations you cite.

The place that is hell on earth? That's a terrible example.

It's where a former slave turned the masters into slaves and the highborn boys into unsullied. Weren't you arguing that such a thing would never happen?

Somehow I think your answers are a bit too wishful. "You can have the power to destroy but that doesn't give you the power to reform, improve, or build." What you're proposing is that the author write the opposite of the principles he's stated - that she destroys and improvement magically happens just because she destroyed things.

The key is governance (Aragorn's tax policy). Which she isn't doing. If you think "leaving it up to the freedmen" is the way forward, we're shown why that's too simple. It's also giving Dany a free pass on responsible rule so she can fly off to another continent.

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

I don't know that it's going to touch every single location, but once you reach a certain point the whole region's trajectory has been changed and there's nothing one or two cities could do about it.

Who knows what cities might rise to power in the future? It's a huge region and no one will be there to enforce rule of law. 

History isn't a straight line. Slavery came back after ancient Rome. 

There's also something to be said for the cycle of destruction - see Ghis/Valyria. If Dany destroys these cities it's just a repeat of that.

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The place that is hell on earth? That's a terrible example.

The final fate of Astapor was because of the intervention of all the outside powers.

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's where a former slave turned the masters into slaves and the highborn boys into unsullied. Weren't you arguing that such a thing would never happen?

Cleon's coup was the result of Daenerys' replacement government not having sufficient force to remain in power.  Which is a good example of something that will have to be sorted out in any future political settlement.

I never said that it could never happen, I said that acting as if it was automatic is nonsensical.  Most of the freedmen that we see in the books have no desire to recreate slavery.

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The key is governance (Aragorn's tax policy). Which she isn't doing.

She has been governing, in fact.  Her biggest problem is that she's been trying to walk a middle road between placating the master class and actually solving the region's problems (and also, on a practical level, losing her dragonpower at a very inconvenient time).

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1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

The final fate of Astapor was because of the intervention of all the outside powers.

So leaving Meereen would appear to do the same thing.

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Cleon's coup was the result of Daenerys' replacement government not having sufficient force to remain in power.

So leaving Meereen would appear to do the same thing.

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Most of the freedmen that we see in the books have no desire to recreate slavery.

Dany is also turning masters into slaves. Very contradictory.

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

She has been governing, in fact.  Her biggest problem is that she's been trying to walk a middle road between placating the master class and actually solving the region's problems (and also, on a practical level, losing her dragonpower at a very inconvenient time).

She was solving Meereen's problems, by governing. She ended slavery in Meereen even with her dragons chained up.

Her biggest problem will be leaving. Effectively throwing her work in the trash.

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21 hours ago, frenin said:

I swear, there's a thread about this once every three months. :bawl:

Blame @divica. This is not proving to be as entertaining as he said it would be, with Dany worshipers screaming at me. 

19 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She was solving Meereen's problems, by governing. She ended slavery in Meereen even with her dragons chained up.

 

Weeee, "solving" Meereen's problems by being a stronger version of Aenys. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
51 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Outlawing instead of reforming slavery. She should've made it illegal to abuse slaves but allow the usual slave trade.

Nah, slavery isn't a matter where half measures work. To own a human as property is inherently abusive. Dany was right to outlaw slavery. She was wrong to seek a peaceable compromise with the slavers she defeated. She should have roasted their asses at the start.

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2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Nah, slavery isn't a matter where half measures work. To own a human as property is inherently abusive. Dany was right to outlaw slavery. She was wrong to seek a peaceable compromise with the slavers she defeated. She should have roasted their asses at the start.

That's a very good idea if you intend to kill everyone in Slaver's Bay, including the slaves.

 

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15 hours ago, The Hoare said:

That's a very good idea if you intend to kill everyone in Slaver's Bay, including the slaves.

 

Whose going to kill all the slaves? Dany? Pfft.

The slaves and freedmen are Dany's coalition, and they vastly outnumber the slavers. Trying to find a peaceful solution with awful human beings when you have the means of forcing an unconditional surrender on them means you should probably go for the latter option.

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15 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Whose going to kill all the slaves? Dany? Pfft.

The slaves and freedmen are Dany's coalition, and they vastly outnumber the slavers. Trying to find a peaceful solution with awful human beings when you have the means of forcing an unconditional surrender on them means you should probably go for the latter option.

Starvation will kill them. The material conditions that would make the end of slavery viable simply doesnt exist in Slaver's Bay.

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On 5/26/2021 at 3:57 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Yes, and then it was basically replaced when she left. 

Not really.  But in any case, that's a matter of setting up a government capable of defending itself and also preventing other slaver powers from interfering in the future.

23 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Outlawing instead of reforming slavery. She should've made it illegal to abuse slaves but allow the usual slave trade.

The slave trade is intrinsically abusive.  You cannot allow it to continue while somehow outlawing abuse.

Like seriously, GRRM goes out of his way to depict slavery in Slaver's Bay in the most cartoonishly evil light imaginable (Astapor's entire economy runs on child murder), yet some people think the takeaway is the region needed more moderate slavery?

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4 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Starvation will kill them. The material conditions that would make the end of slavery viable simply doesnt exist in Slaver's Bay.

Of course they do. It just requires wealth redistribution and setting up some profitable alternative to the slave trade. It might not be a quick and easy solution, but that doesn't make slavery preferable. France is much better off for the French Revolution, even though it caused a lot of chaos and destruction in the short term.

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1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Of course they do. It just requires wealth redistribution and setting up some profitable alternative to the slave trade

Not possible in a medieval setting at all. Wealth redistribution demands a industrial society where people dont starve en mass every winter.

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

France is much better off for the French Revolution, even though it caused a lot of chaos and destruction in the short term.

You cant compare the two. The Revolution happened precisely because the bourgeoisie had grown strong enough(mainly because of technological developments) to challenge the old aristocracy. A Revolution like that wouldnt have happened in medieval France.

2 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

The slave trade is intrinsically abusive.  You cannot allow it to continue while somehow outlawing abuse.

It is abusive, but so is serfdom(which by modern standarts is slavery all the same) and wage-slaving, but it's still necessary given the realities of each epoch.

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13 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Not possible in a medieval setting at all. Wealth redistribution demands a industrial society where people dont starve en mass every winter.

You cant compare the two. The Revolution happened precisely because the bourgeoisie had grown strong enough(mainly because of technological developments) to challenge the old aristocracy. A Revolution like that wouldnt have happened in medieval France.

It is abusive, but so is serfdom(which by modern standarts is slavery all the same) and wage-slaving, but it's still necessary given the realities of each epoch.

Western Europe had largely abolished slavery by 1100.  Serfdom is in fact as big improvement on the chattel slavery of Essos.  Xaro may claim that slavery is necessary, but much of the world does fine without it.

On 5/26/2021 at 9:58 PM, The Hoare said:

Outlawing instead of reforming slavery. She should've made it illegal to abuse slaves but allow the usual slave trade.

How exactly do you trade slaves without abusing them?

Her essential mistake was to fail to foresee how savagely the slavers would fight to reinstate their Peculiar Institution, and to leave them in a position to cause harm to the freedmen.

What she did not do in Astapor, and what she should have done, and will have to do in other cities, is to leave the freedmen (who have plenty of administrators and technicians among their ranks) the means to defend themselves, that is trained soldiers who can train fresh men.

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