Daenerys Mistakes in Slaver's Bay

[Colonel Green]

18 hours ago, The Hoare said:

It is abusive, but so is serfdom(which by modern standarts is slavery all the same) and wage-slaving, but it's still necessary given the realities of each epoch.

Neither serfdom nor wage-slaving were "necessary".

[The Hoare]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

Serfdom is in fact as big improvement on the chattel slavery of Essos.  Xaro may claim that slavery is necessary, but much of the world does fine without it.

This applies to real life serfdom, but Westeros has a harsher type of serfdom than most of Europe did. That's why Tyrion thinks there's no major difference between a westerosi peasant and a ghiscari slave.

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

Her essential mistake was to fail to foresee how savagely the slavers would fight to reinstate their Peculiar Institution, and to leave them in a position to cause harm to the freedmen.

Her essential mistake was not realising that when you abolish a country's main source of income it everything falls apart.

[Colonel Green]

55 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

This applies to real life serfdom, but Westeros has a harsher type of serfdom than most of Europe did. That's why Tyrion thinks there's no major difference between a westerosi peasant and a ghiscari slave.

That's clearly not true, though.  The smallfolk in Westeros have way more rights than slaves do.

55 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Her essential mistake was not realising that when you abolish a country's main source of income it everything falls apart.

When you're under siege by regional rivals and the masters conducted a scorched earth campaign on their own agricultural lands before you took power, there's disadvantages right off the bat.

Obviously shifting away from slavery will require economic restructuring, but that's a necessary shift.

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, The Hoare said:

This applies to real life serfdom, but Westeros has a harsher type of serfdom than most of Europe did. That's why Tyrion thinks there's no major difference between a westerosi peasant and a ghiscari slave.

Her essential mistake was not realising that when you abolish a country's main source of income it everything falls apart.

The lords of Westeros can be cruel and oppressive, but the majority of them prefer to make fun of dwarves at banquets, as opposed to feeding them to lions - and the Yellow Whale is supposedly one of the better masters.  They don't castrate boys, or organise fights between children and bears. Ramsay Bolton's behaviour is considered deviant in the North;  in Slavers Bay it's been institutionalised. 

As to slavery, it generates no income at all for 75-85% of the Eastern population (the slaves).  In fact, it robs them of their income.  The effect of slavery is to redistribute wealth from the majority to the minority, not to create wealth.

[Nathan Stark]

15 hours ago, The Hoare said:

This applies to real life serfdom, but Westeros has a harsher type of serfdom than most of Europe did. That's why Tyrion thinks there's no major difference between a westerosi peasant and a ghiscari slave.

Her essential mistake was not realising that when you abolish a country's main source of income it everything falls apart.

What would Tyrion know about being a Westerosi peasant? He was a high born lordling and son of the most powerful lord in Westeros with all the money of Casterly Rock at his disposal. His entire experience interacting with commoners amounts to them serving him. Tyrion's thoughts on the matter of peasant rights are not objective and we shouldn't treat them as such.

Even as a slave, Tyrion ends up being better off than 99% of slaves. The little dude just fails upwards wherever he goes.

[HoodedCrow]

Well, he did marry one, though it didn’t work out. The pain of the peasants in the time of war or famine is not much better than slavery, though slavery is an evil to start with.

Tyrion fails up because of his wits, and courage. His emotions/ impulsivity get him in trouble. He is under deadly threat quite a lot, yes, he gets help from others, knowledge and money.

[Rose of Red Lake]

16 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Her essential mistake was not realising that when you abolish a country's main source of income it everything falls apart.

This reminds me of the phrase "nation building on the cheap," during the Iraq War years. Usually it meant

• underestimating the work it would take to rebuild a society after destroying it
• unprepared for a long, clostly, bloody insurgency 
• no plans for long-term occupation
• strategy of quickly "bombing targets" and leaving 

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

Well, he did marry one, though it didn’t work out. The pain of the peasants in the time of war or famine is not much better than slavery, though slavery is an evil to start with.

Tyrion fails up because of his wits, and courage. His emotions/ impulsivity get him in trouble. He is under deadly threat quite a lot, yes, he gets help from others, knowledge and money.

Smallfolk struggle for survival.  Exiles on the Wall struggle to keep the apocalypse at bay.  Meanwhile Tyrion is mad at his dad, because his Dad wants to give him Winterfell but not Casterly Rock.  That pretty much sums up Tyrion.

[HoodedCrow]

I would say Tyrion is mad at his dad for, not making him an heir, manipulating him into gang rape, having him clean out the sewers, sleeping with his mistress, trying to get him to force Sansa, putting him in harms way in battle, presiding over a sham murder trial against him, so, no it is not just Winterfell( which he accepted as noble marriages went) instead of Casterly rock. I would say this not just capricious villainy and he does not hate smallfolk, but he has limited perspective, good and bad impulses.

I do not know his end story.

[Loose Bolt]

32 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Meanwhile Tyrion is mad at his dad, because his Dad wants to give him Winterfell but not Casterly Rock.  That pretty much sums up Tyrion.

I assume that Tyrion is smart enough to understand that his chances to actually either rule or just to survive in the North are very weak. Or travelling to North and becoming a lord of WF would be a suicide for him. So his marriage with Sansa was poisoned gift.

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

I would say Tyrion is mad at his dad for, not making him an heir, manipulating him into gang rape, having him clean out the sewers, sleeping with his mistress, trying to get him to force Sansa, putting him in harms way in battle, presiding over a sham murder trial against him, so, no it is not just Winterfell( which he accepted as noble marriages went) instead of Casterly rock. I would say this not just capricious villainy and he does not hate smallfolk, but he has limited perspective, good and bad impulses.

I do not know his end story.

Who said he hated smallfolk? My point was that he doesn't understand smallfolk. And being married to a peasant for a fortnight does not lead to him understanding them especially well. That would take years.

Truth be told, Tyrion basically hates everybody now, and he has a dangerously nihalistic worldview. If wasn't a villian before, which is debateable, he is certainly becoming one.