Daenerys Mistakes in Slaver's Bay

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, Mourning Star said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Hmmm. Fine then. One point conceded. 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Maybe the real answer is you shouldn't be taking hostages at all then.

It comes back to the question of justice, and another major theme in this series: It's wrong to punish children for the sins of their parents.

no the real answer is no half measures. another theme of asoiaf is control and how it is perceived and maintained. Hostages are useful for maintaining control when used properly. When not used properly, they become a symbol of weakness. the sons of the harpy operate clandestine in part because they want to lower the probability that dany executes any of the hostages. she does not know who the harpys are exactly, which is one of the reasons she isn't executing the children. 

there is a difference between executing the child of a rebel lord verses executing a random child as retaliation to a group of individuals undefined. (yes they are all probably nobles, but which nobles from which house? there exists the anxiety of executing a child from a house that has stayed relatively neutral or even loyal, a distinction hard to make when your enemies wear masks.

[Mourning Star]

19 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

no the real answer is no half measures. another theme of asoiaf is control and how it is perceived and maintained. Hostages are useful for maintaining control when used properly. When not used properly, they become a symbol of weakness. the sons of the harpy operate clandestine in part because they want to lower the probability that dany executes any of the hostages. she does not who who the harpy's are exactly, which is one of the reasons she isn't executing the children. 

there is a difference between executing the child of a rebel lord verses executing a random child as retaliation to a group of individuals undefined. (yes they are all probably nobles, but which nobles from which house? there exists the anxiety of executing a child from a house that has stayed relatively neutral or even loyal, a distinction hard to make when your enemies wear masks.

I think this is a question the series begs one to ask... and that it fits directly into the theme of justice.

One can make the argument that the ends justify the means, and I understand the point of view.

However, I believe both myself and a critical reading of this series condemns that way of thinking.

Honestly, is it ever ok to kill a child because of something their parent's did?

In my opinion punishment should be reserved for those, who are found guilty of doing the wrong.

We see this conflict rear its head repeatedly in the series, and it is perhaps best personified by Ned and Tywin.

Ned had heard enough. "You send hired knives to kill a fourteen-year-old girl and still quibble about honor?" He pushed back his chair and stood. "Do it yourself, Robert. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Look her in the eyes before you kill her. See her tears, hear her last words. You owe her that much at least."

Ned believes it's wrong to have a girl killed, even if she is the child of a king he deposed who will likely raise an army and invade.

But Tywin, on the other hand, would burn down an entire town if it meant victory:

"Lord Tywin would not have bothered with a search. He would have burned that town and every living creature in it. Men and boys, babes at the breast, noble knights and holy septons, pigs and whores, rats and rebels, he would have burned them all. When the fires guttered out and only ash and cinders remained, he would have sent his men in to find the bones of Robert Baratheon. Later, when Stark and Tully turned up with their host, he would have offered pardons to the both of them, and they would have accepted and turned for home with their tails between their legs."

I think an interesting and difficult question to ask is would Ned have ever actually killed Theon because of something Balon did?

[Jaenara Belarys]

7 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

One can make the argument that the ends justify the means, and I understand the point of view.

 

My point of view, on many matters. Emphasis on "many". 

8 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

"Lord Tywin would not have bothered with a search. He would have burned that town and every living creature in it. Men and boys, babes at the breast, noble knights and holy septons, pigs and whores, rats and rebels, he would have burned them all. When the fires guttered out and only ash and cinders remained, he would have sent his men in to find the bones of Robert Baratheon. Later, when Stark and Tully turned up with their host, he would have offered pardons to the both of them, and they would have accepted and turned for home with their tails between their legs."

 

A brutal, but effective way to put down rebellions. I respect Lord Tywin. 

9 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think an interesting and difficult question to ask is would Ned have ever actually killed Theon because of something Balon did?

If Balon rose in rebellion again, Ned would've sent the head of Theon to his father. A ward is also a hostage to his family's good behavior. 

28 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

no the real answer is no half measures

I agree. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3QW8PVyyNM

 

[divica]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I disagree. Mercy is never a mistake.

Not true. Mercy can get you killed. Look at what happend to ned because he tried to be nice to cersei. People in charge need to know when to be ruthless and when to be good. That is why bad men sometimes are good kings. 

21 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Ned believes it's wrong to have a girl killed, even if she is the child of a king he deposed who will likely raise an army and invade.

But Tywin, on the other hand, would burn down an entire town if it meant victory:

You are arguing against yourself. Is ti better for danny to die or for thousands upon thousands to die because drogo would invade westeros to put her on the throne? Any good lord/king should put the wellfare of his people first and just kill one girl. Someone's honnor isn't worth thousands of lives and other suferings...

Do you think rhaegar would prefer to be alive with his kids and familly or would he support jon con's decison to not burn down the entire town? Sometimes you just have to achieve results no matter the price because the cost of failure is just to big. If ned knew the consequeces of being merciful to cersei do you think he would act in the same way and let his kids and northmen suffer and die?

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think this is a question the series begs one to ask... and that it fits directly into the theme of justice.

One can make the argument that the ends justify the means, and I understand the point of view.

However, I believe both myself and a critical reading of this series condemns that way of thinking.

Honestly, is it ever ok to kill a child because of something their parent's did?

In my opinion punishment should be reserved for those, who are found guilty of doing the wrong.

We see this conflict rear its head repeatedly in the series, and it is perhaps best personified by Ned and Tywin.

Ned had heard enough. "You send hired knives to kill a fourteen-year-old girl and still quibble about honor?" He pushed back his chair and stood. "Do it yourself, Robert. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Look her in the eyes before you kill her. See her tears, hear her last words. You owe her that much at least."

Ned believes it's wrong to kill a girl, even if she is the child of a king he deposed who will likely raise an army and invade.

But Tywin, on the other hand, would burn down an entire town if it meant victory:

"Lord Tywin would not have bothered with a search. He would have burned that town and every living creature in it. Men and boys, babes at the breast, noble knights and holy septons, pigs and whores, rats and rebels, he would have burned them all. When the fires guttered out and only ash and cinders remained, he would have sent his men in to find the bones of Robert Baratheon. Later, when Stark and Tully turned up with their host, he would have offered pardons to the both of them, and they would have accepted and turned for home with their tails between their legs."

I think an interesting and difficult question to ask is would Ned have ever actually killed Theon because of something Balon did?

first I just want to say I really like this comment. you make a strong thematic argument and raise and interesting question. I will now do my best to address if from an adversarial sentiment.

Regarding justice, I think Asoiaf makes a statement that it is not always the just that win. The idea of justice is a moral and philosophical position that is greatly disputed and ultimately unknowable. it is a matter of personal choice and perception, as opposed to natural laws that are true to everybody. 

The Dothraki have an idea of what justice is as do Westerosi, and that too differs from kingdom and to person.

The truth is the World is often cruel, conflict is often inevitable, and the hero is the one that lives to tell the tale. if the backfires had won, the ones supporting them would be the loyalist, the others the traitors.

Ned was killed for idea of justice, and while there are certainly consequent to this, Volar Morgolis. all men must die. the just, the evil, the neutral.  Death is more or less the end for all. it is the final punishment. at his death, ned himself lost.

while you may not agree with the red wedding, you may at least accept from a westerman standpoint, from the standpoint of Tywin who desires to protect his house, to kill a few a dinner is better than to kill a thousand in the field.

Should a child be killed? I hope not, but how many blackfyre rebellions could have been avoided with a pillow in a crib. it is sad, yes, but it is reality. the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

Regarding Ned and his hostage, and his feelings towards Dany, your right, he does not see the sins of the father as the sins of the son. this goes on the haunt him and his family. Theon was treated kind, and as a result was seen as like a brother to Robb. this is why robb released him to treat with his father, and allowed theon's betrayal. The north was lost when Winter-fell.

as to dany, ned decries the assassination, but as you yourself write, he does insist that Robert should swing the sword himself. Sins should be taken on personally, is part of ned's definition of justice. deferment is not acceptable to him, which is respectable but probably ultimately irrelevant.

As you say, if tywin was hand and burned down the town robert hid in, the targs would be the hero's, and robert the bad guy. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

Not true. Mercy can get you killed. Look at what happend to ned because he tried to be nice to cersei. People in charge need to know when to be ruthless and when to be good. That is why bad men sometimes are good kings. 

 

YES! Thank you! 

4 minutes ago, divica said:

You are arguing against yourself. Is ti better for danny to die or for thousands upon thousands to die because drogo would invade westeros to put her on the throne? Any good lord/king should put the wellfare of his people first and just kill one girl. Someone's honnor isn't worth thousands of lives and other suferings...

 

Yes!

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Do you think rhaegar would prefer to be alive with his kids and familly or would he support jon con's decison to not burn down the entire town? Sometimes you just have to achieve results no matter the price because the cost of failure is just to big. If ned knew the consequeces of being merciful to cersei do you think he would act in the same way and let his kids and northmen suffer and die?

Hmmmm.  I don't think Rhaegar would be as close with Jon if he burned a town. 

[divica]

15 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

If Balon rose in rebellion again, Ned would've sent the head of Theon to his father. A ward is also a hostage to his family's good behavior. 

When jon says that he is ned's son and will kill the wildling kids if he has to is proof that ned would certainly kill theon if balon rebeled again.

 

47 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

no the real answer is no half measures. another theme of asoiaf is control and how it is perceived and maintained. Hostages are useful for maintaining control when used properly. When not used properly, they become a symbol of weakness. the sons of the harpy operate clandestine in part because they want to lower the probability that dany executes any of the hostages. she does not who who the harpy's are exactly, which is one of the reasons she isn't executing the children. 

there is a difference between executing the child of a rebel lord verses executing a random child as retaliation to a group of individuals undefined. (yes they are all probably nobles, but which nobles from which house? there exists the anxiety of executing a child from a house that has stayed relatively neutral or even loyal, a distinction hard to make when your enemies wear masks.

However, if danny had killed some hostages then the nobles of mereen would also start working against the harpies in order to keep their relatives alive. And if I remember correctly she asked for hostages so that the killings would stop. Her inaction just shows how weak she was and gave more power to the harpies and nobles that dislike her.

And I am not saying that killing children in this situation isn't cruel or wrong. Just that some brutal decision can be the best for the people that actually are loyal to you and you are responsable for.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Hmmmm.  I don't think Rhaegar would be as close with Jon if he burned a town. 

I also think that burning the town would be an over reaction, but jon con needed to kill robert there no matter the cost. He couldn't be a nice fellow and go asking door to door where robert was. And we actually know that jon con regrets his actions. That he would prefer to have been a monster on that day and win instead of a good lord.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Just now, divica said:

I also think that burning the town would be an over reaction, but jon con needed to kill robert there no matter the cost. He couldn't be a nice fellow and go asking door to door where robert was. And we actually know that jon con regrets his actions. That he would prefer to have been a monster on that day and win instead of a good lord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3QW8PVyyNM

 

[divica]

One interesting thing to note in Adwd is that danny, jon and cersei all try clever ways to achieve their goals while put in similar situations several times and all fail miserably.

However, as danny is suposed to remember who she is and be more fire and blood in twow then maybe both cersei and jon will also be more savage in dealing with their enemies.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

One interesting thing to note in Adwd is that danny, jon and cersei all try clever ways to achieve their goals while put in similar situations several times and all fail miserably.

 

That's true. Cersei's plan backfires on her, Jon's plan might succeed but he got killed, and Dany is too weak to enforce proper, swift, and if need be deadly discipline. 

 

3 minutes ago, divica said:

However, as danny is suposed to remember who she is and be more fire and blood in twow then maybe both cersei and jon will also be more savage in dealing with their enemies.

I hope she's more Fire and Blood, but she needs to balance that like Aegon I did.  

[Mourning Star]

48 minutes ago, divica said:

Not true. Mercy can get you killed. Look at what happend to ned because he tried to be nice to cersei. People in charge need to know when to be ruthless and when to be good. That is why bad men sometimes are good kings. 

I disagree with you very much on this and believe the text itself makes a compelling case for why.

Quote

Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

Even more to the point, it was not mercy that got Ned killed, it was Littlefinger's betrayal... which was a result of misplaced trust in him through Cat.

Still, if you want to argue that the mercy did result in Ned's fall, there is no promise that doing the right thing will result in good things for you personally. In practice it is often the opposite.

Quote

What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?"
"The madness of mercy," Ned admitted.
"Ah," said Varys. "To be sure. You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life." He glanced around the cell. "When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

However, the results do not necessarily change what is right morally.

It does highlight once again the theme of comparing the morally good with the advantageously practical. The Means and the Ends. The Ned and Tywin.

Perhaps there is a difference between being a good man and a good king, although given how flawed the rest of Aemon's advice was, I'd suggest that it isn't anything close to a given.

Quote

The old man seemed to sense his doubts. "Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?"
Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."
"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

Because a careful reader will have noticed just how much Aemon is wrong about, and even here he admits Ned is a better man.

Quote

You are arguing against yourself. Is ti better for danny to die or for thousands upon thousands to die because drogo would invade westeros to put her on the throne? Any good lord/king should put the wellfare of his people first and just kill one girl. Someone's honnor isn't worth thousands of lives and other suferings...

I do not think I am.

And I do not think killing children in the name of preventing war is logical or moral. It is a false choice.

Quote

The king shifted uncomfortably in his saddle. "Perhaps. There are ships to be had in the Free Cities, though. I tell you, Ned, I do not like this marriage. There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper. Do you forget how many houses fought for Targaryen in the war? They bide their time for now, but give them half a chance, they will murder me in my bed, and my sons with me. If the beggar king crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him."
"He will not cross," Ned promised. "And if by some mischance he does, we will throw him back into the sea. 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

You do not punish a crime before it is commited.

Any number of crimes and evils can be explained away by some nonsense about trying to prevent future events. This is not the way.

Quote

Do you think rhaegar would prefer to be alive with his kids and familly or would he support jon con's decison to not burn down the entire town? Sometimes you just have to achieve results no matter the price because the cost of failure is just to big. If ned knew the consequeces of being merciful to cersei do you think he would act in the same way and let his kids and northmen suffer and die?

You set me up so beautifully here I have to wonder if it is intentional?

Quote

That seemed to amuse the northman. "I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.
"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."

A Dance with Dragons - The King's Prize

We do not know the future.

Life is not a series of dichotomous choices.

All we can do is our best to do the right thing. And while personal gain isn't the aim, the difference between how the North Remembers even after Ned and his heir are both dead, and how everyone turns on the Lannisters after Tywin's death, highlights the long reaching implications of their choices which we have only begun to see.

[divica]

Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

I hope she's more Fire and Blood, but she needs to balance that like Aegon I did.  

I think that is the key diference between a great and poor ruler in asoiaf.

A king can't an overly nice person that his lords step over and do as they like without fear of the consequences but he can't also be about frightning people to follow you.

And while in danny situation it is pretty clear that she needed to enforce her power and show that the harpies can't kill her men without consequences jon faces a simillar problem but much better disguised. There is no unity in the NW and jon doesn't really do much to bind his brothers to him. Even if his plans are good how many of the NW brothers share jon's opinions? Like ned did when he was hand jon also expects that the power of his position as LC would compell people to follow him despite the consequences to themselves or what they think.

[Mourning Star]

47 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

first I just want to say I really like this comment. you make a strong thematic argument and raise and interesting question. I will now do my best to address if from an adversarial sentiment.

Thank you, and it's a fair argument to have... so...

Quote

Regarding justice, I think Asoiaf makes a statement that it is not always the just that win. The idea of justice is a moral and philosophical position that is greatly disputed and ultimately unknowable. it is a matter of personal choice and perception, as opposed to natural laws that are true to everybody. 

I do not agree here, nothing about being moral guarantees good outcomes for one personally.

Quote

The Dothraki have an idea of what justice is as do Westerosi, and that too differs from kingdom and to person.

This sounds like the argument for moral relativism. Basically that morality all depends on where you sit.

While I understand the perspective, and there is no denying that culture and viewpoint change outlooks on many things, I would argue that this series, for all it's grey characters and difficult choices, does not promote a morally relativistic worldview.

Rather there are some moral truths which are true across the board.

A good example is the very topic at hand, it is wrong to punish an innocent for someone else's crime.

Quote

The truth is the World is often cruel, conflict is often inevitable, and the hero is the one that lives to tell the tale. if the backfires had won, the ones supporting them would be the loyalist, the others the traitors.

Again morality is not all about the ends. Good choices can result in bad things happening to you.

Quote

Ned was killed for idea of justice, and while there are certainly consequent to this, Volar Morgolis. all men must die. the just, the evil, the neutral.  Death is more or less the end for all. it is the final punishment. at his death, ned himself lost.

while you may not agree with the red wedding, you may at least accept from a westerman standpoint, from the standpoint of Tywin who desires to protect his house, to kill a few a dinner is better than to kill a thousand in the field.

I understand the argument and I strongly disagree.

Quote

Should a child be killed? I hope not, but how many blackfyre rebellions could have been avoided with a pillow in a crib. it is sad, yes, but it is reality. the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

And how far does this argument go?

Do you kill everyone with a drop of Blackfyre blood? What about the Other legitimized bastards? What about anyone who might have a claim? What about their families and their friends?

When you start down the slippery slope of condemning people for crimes they have not yet committed, I think you can open the door to legitimizing all sorts of horrors.

Quote

Regarding Ned and his hostage, and his feelings towards Dany, your right, he does not see the sins of the father as the sins of the son. this goes on the haunt him and his family. Theon was treated kind, and as a result was seen as like a brother to Robb. this is why robb released him to treat with his father, and allowed theon's betrayal. The north was lost when Winter-fell.

I disagree again.

I think it will be the Lannisters haunted by the murders of Elia and her children.

Robb sent Theon to Balon out of ambition and misplaced trust, not mercy.

While obviously we don't have the end of the story, Ned's treatment of Theon will likely play a role in how his story plays out.

The North is not lost, and castles can be rebuilt.

Quote

as to dany, ned decries the assassination, but as you yourself write, he does insist that Robert should swing the sword himself. Sins should be taken on personally, is part of ned's definition of justice. deferment is not acceptable to him, which is respectable but probably ultimately irrelevant.

Judgement should be made and the weight of it taken personally. Remember this is part of a larger debate between him and Robert over how to deal with the Targaryen children. Ned would wait until they actually invaded to fight them rather than sending assassins to kill pregnant women who might one day birth a threat.

I feel like I've already made my case on this point.

Quote

As you say, if tywin was hand and burned down the town robert hid in, the targs would be the hero's, and robert the bad guy. 

No, I do not think it would have solved the problem of a Mad King, nor ended the conflict. It is simply a great example of how far someone can go, and the horrors they could commit, if they justify their means by the supposed ends.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think it will be the Lannisters haunted by the murders of Elia and her children.

 

If you mean haunted like nightmares, I couldn't disagree more. Tywin hasn't lost any sleep over it and neither has Cersei. 

 

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Judgement should be made and the weight of it taken personally. Remember this is part of a larger debate between him and Robert over how to deal with the Targaryen children. Ned would wait until they actually invaded to fight them rather than sending assassins to kill pregnant women who might one day birth a threat.

 

Do you believe in a preemptive attack or a reactionary attack?

2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

No, I do not think it would have solved the problem of a Mad King, nor ended the conflict. It is simply a great example of how far someone can go, and the horrors they could commit, if they justify their means by the supposed ends.

Then kill the Mad King and seat Prince Rhaegar on the throne! To be sure, it will have to be discreet....but it's doable. 

[Mourning Star]

Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

If you mean haunted like nightmares, I couldn't disagree more. Tywin hasn't lost any sleep over it and neither has Cersei. 

No, I mean the end of his line.

Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

Do you believe in a preemptive attack or a reactionary attack?

Not sure exactly what you are asking...

This series is fairly clearly a condemnation the Iraq War and the attempts to legitimize that "pre-emptive attack".

Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

Then kill the Mad King and seat Prince Rhaegar on the throne! To be sure, it will have to be discreet....but it's doable. 

And that's a hypothetical you are welcome to entertain.

[divica]

9 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Still, if you want to argue that the mercy did result in Ned's fall, there is no promise that doing the right thing will result in good things for you personally. In practice it is often the opposite.

I don't get what you are trying to say. You are providing quotes that being merciful, good and honorable led ned to a cell. 

That is hardly a reason for people to be good, merciful and honorable because it will lead them to their doom...

13 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

However, the results do not necessarily change what is right morally.

It does highlight once again the theme of comparing the morally good with the advantageously practical. The Means and the Ends. The Ned and Tywin.

Perhaps there is a difference between being a good man and a good king, although given how flawed the rest of Aemon's advice was, I'd suggest that it isn't anything close to a given.

They kind of do. If a war ocured because ned didn't kill danny when he should then any orphan because of that war would argue that ned should just have killed danny and saved countless lives.

Ned's responsabilities to his people must also weight when he makes decisions about letting dangerous inocent people live. What is moraly right for a man isn't the same as what is moraly right for a leader. A man can decide to let a mortal enemy live and he is only putting himself at risk. If a leader lets a mortal enemy live then he is puttin all his people at risk. There is a diference!

19 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Because a careful reader will have noticed just how much Aemon is wrong about, and even here he admits Ned is a better man.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. That passage is used to show us that Ned ISN'T  a better man. That he compromises his honnor for the love he has for his daughters. That he is as flawed as aemon expects.

21 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I do not think I am.

And I do not think killing children in the name of preventing war is logical or moral. It is a false choice

It isn't a false choice. It is a matter of how much you are willing to risk the lives of the people that follow you. If you kill the children of enemies then you are risking 0. Letting danny marry drogo is risking a lot. If a lord really cares about his people he has to take action.

24 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

You do not punish a crime before it is commited.

Any number of crimes and evils can be explained away by some nonsense about trying to prevent future events. This is not the way.

A leader can't say that he would rather go to war with the dothriaki instead of killing danny at the moment. Everybody knows that she married drogo in order to invade westeros. If a leader can prevent a war then he has to try.

You are thinking as an individual only responsable for yourself. A good lord is someone that keeps his people safe and well cared. Who cares if he is evil and uses underhanded tactics against his enemies? Ned doesn't need to care about the rights of targs that are preparing to invade westeros...

30 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

We do not know the future.

Life is not a series of dichotomous choices.

All we can do is our best to do the right thing. And while personal gain isn't the aim, the difference between how the North Remembers even after Ned and his heir are both dead, and how everyone turns on the Lannisters after Tywin's death, highlights the long reaching implications of their choices which we have only begun to see

You are comparing northerns that love the starks to people that hate the lannisters. How many westermen are turning against the lannisters?

And go ask the boltons, karstarks and dustins what they think of ned and robb... Hell, the north remember robb as the king that lost the north...

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

No, I mean the end of his line.

He's lost one grand kid in his own line. Arn't you assuming a lot to say Jamie, Cersei, Tyrion (maybe), Marcella and Tommen will all die. isn't that contrary to your own claim that the sins fo the father arn't the sins of the son?

and to that end the Lannister family is still huge, and more than just his kids, Tywin loves Lannister.