Nathan Stark Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 2 hours ago, divica said: I think this is wishfull thinking. As long as a kid with a claim against you exists he will eventually bring problems to you. Even if it the next generation someday people will use the kid's claim in order to raise against you. In a medieval world you either kill the kids, make them join orders like the NW or silent sisters or marry them into your house. Anything else just doesn't work. Yeah, having Aegon and Rheanys murdered didn't help Tywin Lannister or King Robert any. Killing them caused more problems for the Lannister/Baratheon regime, not less. Giving the two children to the Arryns and Starks as wards would have been much smarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 51 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said: I am skeptical that the relative advantages and disadvantages of child murder can be reliably calculated one or more decades into the future. In any event, the danger posed by children is hardly imminent, so for this and other reasons, this is indeed murder, and not justifiable self-defense. Seems to me a plausible claim of child murder might bring its own problems with the passing decades. In any event, even if such crimes could be covered up, all must die and no-one lives for ever. Who wants to die as a child murderer? I don't know if killing children brings you more problems than killing somebody else's familly members/loved ones. It isn't like anybody else besides the dornish are ready to go against the lannisters because of aegon and rhaenys... 15 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said: Yeah, having Aegon and Rheanys murdered didn't help Tywin Lannister or King Robert any. Killing them caused more problems for the Lannister/Baratheon regime, not less. Giving the two children to the Arryns and Starks as wards would have been much smarter. It didn't help? They rulled unopsed for 15 years... While rhaenys could be raised to marry robert's kids aegon either had to die or go to the NW. Being a ward is no solution. There would always be lords that would support him into fighting for the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 12 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said: Harsh measures get stuff done. Pressure makes diamonds. Can anyone on this forum understand excessive use of force? You'd think with cops prowling around American streets right now using "hash measures," the message would sink in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 7 hours ago, divica said: It didn't help? They rulled unopsed for 15 years... A blip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 14 hours ago, divica said: I don't know if killing children brings you more problems than killing somebody else's familly members/loved ones. Again, I'd rather people try to do the right thing, instead of trying to calculate the incalculable. Quote It isn't like anybody else besides the dornish are ready to go against the lannisters because of aegon and rhaenys... Battles and wars are won or lost because of the morale of troops, and who wants to risk his life for a baby-killer? Such things are incalculable. There's this crazy teenager with dragons coming to Westeros, and she hates baby-killers. Such things are incalculable. Some dude named GRRM is writing the story and he might not like baby-killers either. Such things are incalculable. And then, perhaps, upon death, the baby-killer's soul may be confined to the deepest and most fiery of the Seven Hells. Such things are incalculable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 Meereen and Slaver’s Bay is a work-in-progress. It is way too early to judge. The liberation of millions of slave is a social change of such a scale that has never been attempted before. Daenerys is keenly intelligent and very able. If anyone can do the job, it will be her. I would not trust any other ruler to lead a social change of this magnitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted May 10, 2021 Author Share Posted May 10, 2021 Nice turnout for 3 day old thread. You might have a different opinion. 9 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said: Meereen and Slaver’s Bay is a work-in-progress. It is way too early to judge. The liberation of millions of slave is a social change of such a scale that has never been attempted before. Daenerys is keenly intelligent and very able. If anyone can do the job, it will be her. I would not trust any other ruler to lead a social change of this magnitude. I'd rather have Tyrion do it. Dany's too inexperienced. Literally, you hear that a city might march on you, but you sit back and let it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 18 hours ago, divica said: I don't know if killing children brings you more problems than killing somebody else's familly members/loved ones. It isn't like anybody else besides the dornish are ready to go against the lannisters because of aegon and rhaenys... It didn't help? They rulled unopsed for 15 years... While rhaenys could be raised to marry robert's kids aegon either had to die or go to the NW. Being a ward is no solution. There would always be lords that would support him into fighting for the throne. I think that the average lord in this world would be like the old-school mafia. Adult and adolescent males are judged according to big boys' rules. Female family members, girls, and infant boys should generally be spared. Unfortunately, Tywin raised the stakes for everyone by killing women and children. Everyone now has to fear that if they lose a power struggle, their entire family will be exterminated. In turn, they will seek to exterminate rival families. The reason why we have rules of combat is not that people want to be nice to each other. It's because of mutual self-interest, to impose some limits on brutality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 1 hour ago, SeanF said: I think that the average lord in this world would be like the old-school mafia. Adult and adolescent males are judged according to big boys' rules. Female family members, girls, and infant boys should generally be spared. Unfortunately, Tywin raised the stakes for everyone by killing women and children. Everyone now has to fear that if they lose a power struggle, their entire family will be exterminated. In turn, they will seek to exterminate rival families. The reason why we have rules of combat is not that people want to be nice to each other. It's because of mutual self-interest, to impose some limits on brutality. Having social mores like Guest Right is not a matter of everybody just wanting to join hands and sing kumbaya over a nice turkey and gravey dinner. Being able to peacefully share salt and bread is an important show of good faith in this universe. It lets people know that as long as certain rules are maintained, there is some level of safety and civility. Once you violate that social contract, you open the door for atrocities to be committed against you, which is why even the good and decent members of House Frey are doomed. Bringing this back around to Tywin, he made it pretty inevitable that his House will utterly collapse. Everybody absolutely despises the Lannisters, and only stayed in line because they feared Tywin, including his own bannermen. Now Tywin's gone, his children are fighting each other, and House Lannister is overseeing a feast for crows. By being as brutal and needlessly cruel as he was, Tywin made it a certainty that his warcrimes will be returned opon his House in the future. Butchering babies and mothers may have short term benefits, but what goes around comes around. Myrcella and Tommen, you can thank your Grandpa for your impending deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted May 11, 2021 Author Share Posted May 11, 2021 20 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: Having social mores like Guest Right is not a matter of everybody just wanting to join hands and sing kumbaya over a nice turkey and gravey dinner. Being able to peacefully share salt and bread is an important show of good faith in this universe. It lets people know that as long as certain rules are maintained, there is some level of safety and civility. Once you violate that social contract, you open the door for atrocities to be committed against you, which is why even the good and decent members of House Frey are doomed. Shame, I kind of like Perwyn, Olyvar and all them for still being loyal. And you must save Fair Walda. 20 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: Butchering babies and mothers may have short term benefits, but what goes around comes around. Myrcella and Tommen, you can thank your Grandpa for your impending deaths. Welp, sorry kids, your head is being measured for a spike . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 3 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said: Shame, I kind of like Perwyn, Olyvar and all them for still being loyal. And you must save Fair Walda. Welp, sorry kids, your head is being measured for a spike . Yep. And poor Roslyn, was bullied into being in the Red Wedding and is doing everything she can to keep her dopey Edmure alive. She deserves better family members than Lame Lothar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted May 11, 2021 Author Share Posted May 11, 2021 31 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said: Yep. And poor Roslyn, was bullied into being in the Red Wedding and is doing everything she can to keep her dopey Edmure alive. She deserves better family members than Lame Lothar. She deserves a better husband than that soft fool Edmure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 On 5/10/2021 at 11:24 AM, Jaenara Belarys said: Nice turnout for 3 day old thread. You might have a different opinion. I'd rather have Tyrion do it. Dany's too inexperienced. Literally, you hear that a city might march on you, but you sit back and let it happen. It's almost like letting a teenager be in charge of.... anything... is a terrible idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted May 11, 2021 Author Share Posted May 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said: It's almost like letting a teenager be in charge of.... anything... is a terrible idea. Yep. I don't know how stupid you have to be, to hear that your enemies are marshalling and training troops, and not do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 12 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: Yep. I don't know how stupid you have to be, to hear that your enemies are marshalling and training troops, and not do anything. Why she did not sweep down on Yunkai, as soon as she learned they were intriguing against free Meereen, is one of those mysteries which is hard to fathom. Once the Yunkish attacked, she fought back, albeit on the defensive. But, she let the slavers regain the initiative for no good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted May 11, 2021 Author Share Posted May 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, SeanF said: Why she did not sweep down on Yunkai, as soon as she learned they were intriguing against free Meereen, is one of those mysteries which is hard to fathom. Once the Yunkish attacked, she fought back, albeit on the defensive. But, she let the slavers regain the initiative for no good reason. She hardly fought back. Sellsword patrols cannot compensate. Possibly if the sellswords fought a guerrilla war, but you only have so many miles from Yunkai or Astapor to Meereen. Plus, the land is not conductive for that type of fighting, if it's what I think it is. Unsullied can't fight that way, you hardly have any Dothraki, the freedmen are half trained and hardly blooded...if she had met them when they were marching back at the Horns of Hazzat, then you might've won but if you don't have a blocking force behind to box them in, most of them will live to fight another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 12 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: She hardly fought back. Sellsword patrols cannot compensate. Possibly if the sellswords fought a guerrilla war, but you only have so many miles from Yunkai or Astapor to Meereen. Plus, the land is not conductive for that type of fighting, if it's what I think it is. Unsullied can't fight that way, you hardly have any Dothraki, the freedmen are half trained and hardly blooded...if she had met them when they were marching back at the Horns of Hazzat, then you might've won but if you don't have a blocking force behind to box them in, most of them will live to fight another day. Nothing can be more stupid that danny knowing that the targs lost their dragons because they chained them and she decides to do the same and never tries to look for an alternative solution. She could have ofered rewards for valyrian book about dragon traning, asked for people that know about valyrian history and grrm even has the gall to say that the books danny had with her since the beguining are actually useful but she "kind of forgot" about them? I realy think it is hard not to think of danny as short sighted despite her best intentions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 14 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: She hardly fought back. Sellsword patrols cannot compensate. Possibly if the sellswords fought a guerrilla war, but you only have so many miles from Yunkai or Astapor to Meereen. Plus, the land is not conductive for that type of fighting, if it's what I think it is. Unsullied can't fight that way, you hardly have any Dothraki, the freedmen are half trained and hardly blooded...if she had met them when they were marching back at the Horns of Hazzat, then you might've won but if you don't have a blocking force behind to box them in, most of them will live to fight another day. Actually, once the invasion was under way, keeping most soldiers behind the walls of Meereen was sensible. The slavers found themselves at the end of their lines of communication, camped in a plague spot of their own making. Disease was killing far more than Dany's forces. Trying for a pitched battle in the open against heavy odds would have been most unwise. My point is more that it should not have got to the point in the first place. Had hte Yunkish lords been put to the sword at the end of ASOS, the slavers would have faced a united opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted May 11, 2021 Author Share Posted May 11, 2021 3 minutes ago, SeanF said: Actually, once the invasion was under way, keeping most soldiers behind the walls of Meereen was sensible. The slavers found themselves at the end of their lines of communication, camped in a plague spot of their own making. Disease was killing far more than Dany's forces. Trying for a pitched battle in the open against heavy odds would have been most unwise. That's true, but even though the freedmen are unblooded and half trained, you can probably leave them to hold Meereen while you take the sellswords and Unsullied south. And, also I realize that a pitched battle would've been bad, that's why I said she should've hit them at the Horns of Hazzat. I don't know how you would insert a force behind the Yunkai'i to box them in and prevent retreat (at least for a little bit of time), but the confines of a mountain pass would anchor your flanks and probably be conductive for Unsullied. You'd just have to form a shield wall and plug the pass while the sellswords somehow sweep around. 9 minutes ago, divica said: Nothing can be more stupid that danny knowing that the targs lost their dragons because they chained them and she decides to do the same and never tries to look for an alternative solution. That is show ser. Dragons do fine, they just don't grow as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said: Yep. I don't know how stupid you have to be, to hear that your enemies are marshalling and training troops, and not do anything. I think she just didn't want to fight a war and was hoping they'd change their minds or something. But yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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