Impeachment for Jon and Aerys

[The Young Maester]

I really wish the ignore users option would also completely ignore the threads they start. Unfortunately these sort of threads are the first ones that show up in my screen.

[Jaenara Belarys]

5 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

Not at all.  But I'm not surprised that you would see it that way.  I could say the same thing about Jaenera's topic about Dany. 

 

If you mistake my topic for a Dany hate thread, then you must be a very irrational person. Oh, and it's Jaenara. 

6 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

 A procedure should have been in place for the removal of incompetent and destructive leaders like Aerys Targaryen and Jon Snow.  Further tragedy might have been prevented if Bowen Marsh and the watch had impeached Jon Snow before he sent Mance Rayder on his mission to get Arya.  The best time to impeach Jon was right after he killed Janos Slynt.  Removing Jon from office at that time would have prevented most of the damage that he created for the watch.

lmao. 

[El Guapo]

2 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I really wish the ignore users option would also completely ignore the threads they start. Unfortunately these sort of threads are the first ones that show up in my screen.

I mean no one is forcing you to actually open and read the thread.

Just sayin'

[Texas Hold Em]

14 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

 A procedure should have been in place for the removal of incompetent and destructive leaders like Aerys Targaryen and Jon Snow.  Further tragedy might have been prevented if Bowen Marsh and the watch had impeached Jon Snow before he sent Mance Rayder on his mission to get Arya.  The best time to impeach Jon was right after he killed Janos Slynt.  Removing Jon from office at that time would have prevented most of the damage that he created for the watch.

Impeachment is a modern invention.  These crazy fellows are not stepping down just because some committee decided they needed to.  Aerys ruled because of his right by birth.  It's not about being the best man for the throne.  Jon was elected by the narrowest of margins but he was not going to let anybody or anything to stop him from helping his little sister.  I am doubtful if Maester Aemon and Sam could have talked Jon out of his foolish plan to help Arya.  Force was the only way available to Marsh to deal with Jon.

The Recall is an interesting topic on its own but not applicable in this matter or anything in a medieval setting.  A recall does not remove an elected official from office.  It justifies another election.  The office holder could win again.  I have actually never participated in a recall but I was living in the U.S. during the recall that brought down Grey Davis.  He was replaced by Schwarzenegger.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

15 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Oh, another stark hate post. Orginal.

It seems hard to find one that isn't a hate post. It's what all the cool kids do these days.

[Jaenara Belarys]

10 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It seems hard to find one that isn't a hate post. It's what all the cool kids do these days.

Am I doing a hate post? No, and look at it. It's only a few days old and it already has 4 pages. 

[Nathan Stark]

13 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It seems hard to find one that isn't a hate post. It's what all the cool kids do these days.

It's CTBAC. Cool To Be A Contrarian. Except, no, not really. It's just silly if you don't have anything supporting you but "Starks did a stupid bad thing one time. They're the real baddies!" That's what's annoying about threads like these; they make sweeping judgments while ignoring anything that contradicts whatever argument they are making. It's not like the Starks are or should be above criticism. It's that the CTBAC way of critisizing the Starks is repetative and boring. Dany is the same kind of character; not above criticism, but at one time she got a huge amount of hate that was rather mean spirited. Then things shifted, and it was the Starks turn to be CTBACed. We really should try to ignore topics like this, but they are tailor made to cause "controversy" and get attention.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Am I doing a hate post? No, and look at it. It's only a few days old and it already has 4 pages. 

I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the OP.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

It's CTBAC. Cool To Be A Contrarian. Except, no, not really. It's just silly if you don't have anything supporting you but "Starks did a stupid bad thing one time. They're the real baddies!" That's what's annoying about threads like these; they make sweeping judgments while ignoring anything that contradicts whatever argument they are making. It's not like the Starks are or should be above criticism. It's that the CTBAC way of critisizing the Starks is repetative and boring. Dany is the same kind of character; not above criticism, but at one time she got a huge amount of hate that was rather mean spirited. Then things shifted, and it was the Starks turn to be CTBACed. We really should try to ignore topics like this, but they are tailor made to cause "controversy" and get attention.

I blame D&D's fan fiction. 

[The Commentator]

Jon and Aerys would have never obeyed the will of an impeachment.  Jon Snow was too hellbent on taking his sister away from the Boltons that no vows, laws, or honor was getting in his way.  The officers of the NW would have had to use force to remove Jon from his position.  Jon was no longer thinking ethically nor rationally. Emotions had taken over and he was getting his sister at whatever cost. I think his chain of screwups that started with his feelings for Arya will result in a lot of problems for Westeros.  

[Jaenara Belarys]

Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon and Aerys would have never obeyed the will of an impeachment.  Jon Snow was too hellbent on taking his sister away from the Boltons that no vows, laws, or honor was getting in his way

Understandable with that ****ing creep Ramsay Snow. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 5/8/2021 at 9:09 AM, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

 A procedure should have been in place for the removal of incompetent and destructive leaders like Aerys Targaryen and Jon Snow.  Further tragedy might have been prevented if Bowen Marsh and the watch had impeached Jon Snow before he sent Mance Rayder on his mission to get Arya.  The best time to impeach Jon was right after he killed Janos Slynt.  Removing Jon from office at that time would have prevented most of the damage that he created for the watch.

They should have invented microwaves so that when they're at the wall they can heat their food.

[Jaenara Belarys]

57 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

They should have invented microwaves so that when they're at the wall they can heat their food.

[Darth Sidious]

Jaime could have saved his king and prevented the wildfire. Bowen had no chance to prevent Jon from raiding the Boltons if he had not poked him with holes.
 

The closest thing to an impeachment is a great council.  It would not have enough backng against King Aerys II bcause the kingdom was largely peaceful and prosperous. The execution of. Randon and Rickard was insufficient to offend enough of the masses to force Aerys off the throne. 

The execution of Slynt was an injustice. Enough would have voted for Jon’s removal if they had a chance to vote. But he was a tyrant and Bowen would have been murdered by Jon if he had called for an election. Poking Jon full of holes was a good decision. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 5/8/2021 at 12:34 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

They were scared. He just executed a man for a minor offense. It's reasonable for them to fear Jon.  Given Jon's mental state, yes, he would have killed them if they had called a meeting to vote him out of his job.  Assassination was the only way to stop Jon from further dragging the NW into war.  

A recall is currently under way in California for a liberal district attorney. I believe 50k signatures are required to hold an election for his city. The NW doesn't need this kind of formality. They are so low in numbers such that a meeting would suffice. 

Insubordination is not a minor offense in the  (US) military. For normal soldiers it's punishable by up to a dishonorable discharge, loss of pay and benefits, and 2 years of prison. For officers I believe it's worse but don't remember, and this is in an all volunteer force. The NW members cannot leave after they've sworn an oath -- unless there's a release process for people who came voluntarily -- however American soldiers either choose to enlist and most officers can resign their commission after their initial obligation. In medieval armies refusing an order from the noble or king in command was tantamount to treason and executable by death, exile, or seizure of the properties and titles.

Janos was refusing a lawful order that put him in no danger from his supreme commander. He was rebuilding a fort during wartime to keep out invading wildings and the WW. Jon cannot strip him of lands and titles nor can he exile him. He also specifically thinks to himself that

tldr refusing a commanders orders is not minor and was often severely punished in the medieval era up to and including execution. Jon might have been harsh but he was within his rights

[Loose Bolt]

13 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

The execution of Slynt was an injustice. Enough would have voted for Jon’s removal if they had a chance to vote. But he was a tyrant and Bowen would have been murdered by Jon if he had called for an election. Poking Jon full of holes was a good decision.

Actually we do not know how popular Slynt was among his "brothers". So it is possible that execution actually made Jon more popular After all S was a man who sold "protection" and took bribes when he "served" in citywatch of KL and mistreated and betrayed some of his juniors and even his superiors. So there might have been many people among NW who were happy that arsehole literally lost his head.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

19 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Jaime could have saved his king and prevented the wildfire. Bowen had no chance to prevent Jon from raiding the Boltons if he had not poked him with holes.
 

The closest thing to an impeachment is a great council.  It would not have enough backng against King Aerys II bcause the kingdom was largely peaceful and prosperous. The execution of. Randon and Rickard was insufficient to offend enough of the masses to force Aerys off the throne. 

The execution of Slynt was an injustice. Enough would have voted for Jon’s removal if they had a chance to vote. But he was a tyrant and Bowen would have been murdered by Jon if he had called for an election. Poking Jon full of holes was a good decision. 

LOL

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 5/9/2021 at 2:06 AM, Texas Hold Em said:

Impeachment is a modern invention.  These crazy fellows are not stepping down just because some committee decided they needed to.  Aerys ruled because of his right by birth.  It's not about being the best man for the throne.  Jon was elected by the narrowest of margins but he was not going to let anybody or anything to stop him from helping his little sister.  I am doubtful if Maester Aemon and Sam could have talked Jon out of his foolish plan to help Arya.  Force was the only way available to Marsh to deal with Jon.

The Recall is an interesting topic on its own but not applicable in this matter or anything in a medieval setting.  A recall does not remove an elected official from office.  It justifies another election.  The office holder could win again.  I have actually never participated in a recall but I was living in the U.S. during the recall that brought down Grey Davis.  He was replaced by Schwarzenegger.

An emergency election could have been called to remove Jon.  But sure, retirement to an outpost was not the ending for Jon.  He had been corrupted by power and authority. He's not giving up his position.  Execution was going to be the only way to stop Jon's mad decisions and their consequences.

[The Commentator]

Jon was well aware of what his men would do after the scandal comes out in public. That’s why he made the wildlings his men during the announcement. The watch could no longer stop him.  He had his bodyguards and a wild army on his side.  

The best time, the safest time, to remove him should have come right after he murdered Janos. Unfortunately, he was already in bed with Stannis.  Maybe there really was never a safe time to remove him.  Jon created a political chaos in the north for the sake of Arya and it will lead to the ruin of the NW.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

The Janos Slynt stanning never ceases to amaze me.