Jupiter‘s Legacy

[Arakan]

Allright people. Who of you have already watched Jupiter‘s Legacy on Netflix? 

I must say I was a bit sceptical at first as I didn’t know anything of the story at all (didn’t read the comics). Just another metacritic on the whole Superhero genre I thought, basically Netflix’s The Boys or Watchmen. And yes it is but it’s also awesome. 

I can only recommend it to everyone. Good, believable characters with believable psychological issues, good acting. Good plot, special effects are ok, doesn’t look cheap at all. 

Theme wise the series asks some interesting philosophical questions and „The Code“ (upheld and enforced by the strongest superhero) makes it stringent why they (the super humans) just don’t intervene at a whim or take power for themselves. „We don’t lead, we inspire“ otherwise humanity would lose all free will. 

Suffice to say that the validity of the code is questioned throughout the series. 

I would strongly recommend to watch this series. 

I give at a 8/10. 

[polishgenius]

Is this another one of those where they take a Mark Millar (fuck Mark Millar) comic and adapt it with all the nastiness taken out?

[Ran]

Saw the first episode. It has some real pacing problems that reviewers all seem to suggest do not get fixed across the entire season. Some of the editing and line deliveries were not good. 

I did appreciate the exploration of comic book morality in a more "real" world -- the Utopian's Code (echoing the Superman of the 50s and 60s) requiring one to never kill under any circumstances starts to look quickly absurd in  the face of the problems they face. And the ending was intriguing enough.

@polishgenius

I'm not sure. There's a face blasted off and we're giving a loving image of what the insides look like not once, twice, but at least three times, and someone's body is blasted away below their neck, and there's cursing and drug use and stuff.

I am not a Millar fan either. He's a self-promoting shock jock for the most part. But I hope Frank Quitely is getting the big bucks thanks to the series. Tremendous artist.

[polishgenius]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

I'm not sure. There's a face blasted off and we're giving a loving image of what the insides look like not once, twice, but at least three times,

 

Fair enough, but mostly I mean the morally/personally ewww stuff. I think this was the series with the baby who saved itself from abortion by teleporting into the surgeon's womb for example. Or like how Kick-Ass took out all the gleeful rape and made characters who had been awful in the comic- Katie in particular- actually likeable.

 

Millar is basically a guy who aims at being Warren Ellis or Grant Ennis but does not understand the underlying heart in their writing that let them get away with what they did.

[Ran]

Yeah. Speaking of Ellis, I was struck by some of the similarities of the present-day plot with Ellis's Black Summer ... which of course came out several years prior to Jupiter's Legacy. I'm not saying Millar copped a few ideas off of him...

... but Millar cops ideas off a lot of people and then does his shock jock thing with them.

Red Son is probably the best thing he'll ever write. Though I have heard some surprising things about Huck, which apparently he wrote as a response to Snyder's Man of Steel.

ETA: Oh, as to the skeevy stuff, at least the first episode didn't really have anything like that. I think I read a reviewer familiar with the comics saying that they did dial back some of that.

[polishgenius]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Red Son is probably the best thing he'll ever write.

 

Ultimates is also really good, and the closest he'll ever get to actually achieving Ellisness, falling neatly in between the tone of Stormwatch and Authority. Dialled back the shockyness just enough that it actually worked for character stuff. Some genuinely excellent spectacle moments too, helped by Bryan Hitch. 

He's capable of writing a good story, he just too often lets his being a dickhead get in the way.


Oh, it was The Magic Order not Jupiter's Legacy that had the teleporting baby I was referring to. Magic Order is also being developed into a Netflix show.

[Heartofice]

I watched about 15 minutes of this, and my reaction was the same to watching 4 episodes of Invincible. 

"Why does this exist?"

What new is it offering to the genre? I still don't get it.

[Arakan]

The first episode indeed has pacing issues but it’s still worth it. 
@Ran the Code indeed seems ridiculous and that’s basically the premise of the first season. Many superheroes don’t want to live by it anymore. But the reason why the Utopian enforces them are very plausible from a psychological point of view. 

@polishgenius give it a chance . It’s not Marvel level of childish (except Civil War). It asks tough questions. The rigidity of the Utopian alienates him basically from his entire family. His daughter became an alcoholic and drug addict due to the pressures put on her by her father. 

Anyway, what I liked about the series: it asks the difficult ethical and philosophical questions. How much do you intervene before you basically become a almighty totalitarian dictator? Is there a balance to it? What is free will in the end? 

I admit I never was a big fan of on the face superheroes. Too much of it is IMO dangerous wish fulfillment and as a German it more often than not has some subconscious fascistic tendencies. Superheroes without universal ethical accountability are fucking dangerous. 
 

 

[divica]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Saw the first episode. It has some real pacing problems that reviewers all seem to suggest do not get fixed across the entire season. Some of the editing and line deliveries were not good. 

I did appreciate the exploration of comic book morality in a more "real" world -- the Utopian's Code (echoing the Superman of the 50s and 60s) requiring one to never kill under any circumstances starts to look quickly absurd in  the face of the problems they face. And the ending was intriguing enough.

The morality dilema is pretty interesting but it is handled by people as bad as writing as D&D. 

They almost never show supers doubting if they should kill villains because they need. It usually is because someone from the young generation (who are portraied as drug addict dicks) wants to kill a villain out of revenge. I mean, if you want people to debate weather supers should kill people or not the very least you have to do is having the supers being half decent people... And having a cop saying that they should just kill all criminals also made 0 sense. It Isn t the way cops do things... 

Then I have no idea how anyone would be okay with supers having political power because of their powers. Are we supposed to believe anyone would want to live in a dictatorship because the leader has super powers? 

Another thing that annoyed me is that all their kids look to be around 20 despite the first supers being 90. How can it be nobody has middle aged kids? And how are there so many kids with super powers? 

Finally, utopian was really badly written. He alternates between being an asshole to someone like superman for no reason. And all the problems they are facing seem to be because utopian is out of touch with reality and the younger generation despite him being an active member of the super hero community. I have no idea why the problems they are facing would only appear after 90 years of being super heroes.... 

[Arakan]

1 minute ago, divica said:

The morality dilema is pretty interesting but it is handled by people as bad as writing as D&D. 

They almost never show supers doubting if they should kill villains because they need. It usually is because someone from the young generation (who are portraied as drug addict dicks) wants to kill a villain out of revenge. I mean, if you want people to debate weather supers should kill people or not the very least you have to do is having the supers being half decent people... And having a cop saying that they should just kill all criminals also made 0 sense. It Isn t the way cops do things... 

Then I have no idea how anyone would be okay with supers having political power because of their powers. Are we supposed to believe anyone would want to live in a dictatorship because the leader has super powers? 

Another thing that annoyed me is that all their kids look to be around 20 despite the first supers being 90. How can it be nobody has middle aged kids? And how are there so many kids with super powers? 

Finally, utopian was really badly written. He alternates between being an asshole to someone like superman for no reason. And all the problems they are facing seem to be because utopian is out of touch with reality and the younger generation despite him being an active member of the super hero community. I have no idea why the problems they are facing would only appear after 90 years of being super heroes.... 

I disagree because it’s not true. Two of the first 6 originals explicitly agreed with the handling of the villain in episode one. 
The Utopian is a decent person with two massive traumas. Lady Liberty is a decent Person etc.  

And your last point is wrong as well. They faced these problems before and that’s why one of the 6 originals left 60 years ago. 

And last but not least, the Utopian is portrayed as by far the strongest and mightiest of the super humans. He enforces the code if you like it or not. Those who don’t want to live by it either became villains or somehow „neutral“ (outside of the Union like Barnabas). 

I mean I do not get the impression you watched the show. All of your major points are addressed. 

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Arakan said:

I disagree because it’s not true. Two of the first 6 originals explicitly agreed with the handling of the villain in episode one. 
The Utopian is a decent person with two massive traumas. Lady Liberty is a decent Person etc.  

The first generation try to be decent people. However what I said is that most of their kids are portrayed as drug addict assholes. And the first and last episode are the only situations where the question is if they need to kill the villain in order to defeat him instead of wanting revenge as happens during the rest of the series. And what the originals agree is that it is better that they are alive instead of the villain while the question is if the dude could have done anything else to defeat the villain instead of killing him. That is something that utopian says and afterwards nobody cares about...

12 minutes ago, Arakan said:

And your last point is wrong as well. They faced these problems before and that’s why one of the 6 originals left 60 years ago

They faced these problems and the majortiy of supers decided to keep to the code. And they want to break the code now because? The villains are more bad than in the last 90 years? They are more powerful? 

Are we suposed to believe that in 90 years a villain never took a hostage and utopian had to choose between killing the villain or losing the hostage? 

16 minutes ago, Arakan said:

I mean I do not get the impression you watched the show. All of your major points are addressed. 

No they aren't.

The show wants to raise doubt about the code because supers want to be able to kill out of revenge and anger instead of need. Even lady liberty is angry she didn't kill one villain after he killed one super. This is a very stupid and childish way to raise the question if supers should kill or no. 

There is no discussion about the problems of supers having political power. That even if they can kill they can't just kill every villain. That they must try every option before killing. That killing in anger is wrong. What could the dude in the first ep do besides killing the villain. And so much more...

[polishgenius]

All I'm getting from this topic is that a Kingdom Come miniseries would have been much better.

Obviously Netflix couldn't have made that but...

[Ran]

1 hour ago, divica said:

Another thing that annoyed me is that all their kids look to be around 20 despite the first supers being 90. How can it be nobody has middle aged kids? And how are there so many kids with super powers? 

From what I've read of Jupiter's Legacy, there are grandchildren of heroes running around as well. I think they have probably cut down the number of heroes alot though. The first issue of the comic says a hundred different heroes had responded to the Blackstar emergency, whereas it was like ... eight people on the show. Some of whom are not clear in regards to how they relate to the founding members of the Union, or if they relate at all (like the Tectonic guy, Brandon's friend at the club). Some reviewer said that by the end of the first season you still don't know how a lot of the younger heroes got their powers.

[Kalbear]

Again, the show is both boring and fairly stupid. The storyline of how they got their powers is a massive drag that takes forever to get anywhere interesting, the conflict with the Code is obviously stupid for the reasons mentioned, the show is weirdly cheap looking and reminiscent of 80s and 90s superhero TV shows, the action is mostly bright colors but not actually great.

One sequence with a younger hero dying while mentioning heartfully how she didn't break the code is very bad. 

And the big twist at the end completely makes no sense in terms of reactions of characters prior to it. 

The best part by far is Hutch and his interactions. But he is in it for very little and interacts with the rest of the cast almost not at all. 

[Ran]

You know, I'm not going to ding the show on effects, because they're trying to do the kind of comic book action sequences that you very rarely see outside of, well, comics. Look at the first issue and a lot of the shots of that Blackstar fight are straight up translating Frank Quitely's panels to the medium. More budget would have made it look smoother, but better that they just do what they can within the budget and we suspend disbelief.

Same with the costumes. They're translating what Quitely did within the budget they have as well as they can. It doesn't look tremendous, but I prefer that attempt at fidelity to the source they're adapting rather than just giving up and putting everyone in black jumpsuits or whatever, X-Men style.

[Kalbear]

I didn't read the comics, but the effect is really stupid looking on the screen and the costumes look just cheap cosplay style. I guess its good that they were loyal? But it really didn't work for me at all.

And marvel did a fine job making the costumes look decent without them being ridiculous. He'll, daredevil the TV show largely did a good job too. 

Even the Boys did a good job and half of that show is about making them look somewhat ridiculous!

[Ran]

DD had one superhero costume to do, though. This show's got a dozen, and there will likely be more. The other shows eschewed them entirely.

The Boys clearly has a substantially higher budget  than Jupiter's Legacy. JL seems to be more on the level of one of the DC comic TV shows.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

DD had one costume to do, though. This show's got a dozen, and there will likely be more. 

The Boys clearly has a substantially higher budget  than Jupiter's Legacy.

I really don't think given the special effects in the show that the budget of costuming is the massive drag you're implying. They spent tons of money on the period bullshit. They couldn't have adapted costumes to not look stupid? Please. It was a choice. 

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Karlbear said:

I really don't think given the special effects in the show that the budget of costuming is the massive drag you're implying. They spent tons of money on the period bullshit. They couldn't have adapted costumes to not look stupid? Please. It was a choice. 

Sure, which was to translate Quitely's art to the screen. The DD suit in the TV show looks very little like Daredevil's actual costume, going with the pleather thing that became de rigeur since X-Men. JL is nearer to what the CW shows and The Boys have done, but again, the budget is clearly closer to a CW show than The Boys. Or the period aspect of the story, which definitely is a choice (they dwell on it a lot longer than the comic did), restricted what they could do in the contemporary era. That's the story they wanted to tell, though, so that's the result.

You're not going to convince me to be critical about the effects or costumes given the narrative structure they tried to do. And by all accounts failed to do successfully. But I'm not someone who cares overmuch about production design and costuming in the face of what are obviously logistical and budgetary limitations. The effects and costumes just don't bother me, no more than the backdrops in I, Claudius moving due to a drafty studio bother me.

[Arakan]

The show tries to ask the right question and deconstruct the whole wish fulfillment superhero genre. This alone made it worthwhile for me to watch. 

The Code is stupid. Interesting opinion. It might be naive (and it is) but stupid it is not. But hey I also am not a fan of American (or any other superpower) exceptionalism, military raids, imprisonments without legal representation or the death penalty. 

The Code is there for a reason. A reason which in all standard superhero stories is totally ignored. Because those superheroes of course always know what’s right or wrong. 

I am not a fan of Marvel with few exceptions. One time they tried to address the issue of accountability (Civil War) and of course Captain America is morally so supergood that he can do how HE sees fit. Exceptionalism at its best. 

Zemo in the new series put it best: did you visit the memorial for Sokovia? 
 

Utopian is not stupid. He is in principle totally correct. Superheroes without strict accountability are just a few steps away from fascist overlords. 

There is a reason why there are no traditional superhero comic stories from Germany or France.