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Israel: When the Drums of War Have Reached a Fever Pitch


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No.

And look, if you want to call me an anti-Semite, have at it.

I mean, I honestly couldn't give a fish's tit what religion anybody practices, because there's no such thing as god. But I do have strong feelings of support for the Palestinians.

That's probably enough these days, wouldn't you say?

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17 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Genocide is bad, and we need to work towards stopping what is occurring instead of creating a whole new one without solutions to the former. 

Gaza is absolutely fair game. Israel's policies towards it are awful. But Hamas, basically acting in the name of Gaza, are pro-genocide of Jews. That's why myself and others have pointed out that you need to consider that. I believe in a two state solution, or maybe a three state one in which Jerusalem exists kind of like the Vatican (which does create a lot of other issues). I just think it's not possible to have Gaza and the WB exist as one state without a shared border. That's why I think in some magical deal you give Gaza to Israel, the WB becomes an independent Palestinian state, people from said areas are relocated to some degree at their choice, and then we build from there. Is that a perfect solution? No, but I want have to try and believe it means peace at the end of the day, and that's all I want. I had to turn down the chance to live in Israel for a summer as a teenager because it was not safe. That was in 2005, and the situation is way worse today. I want harmony in the Holy Land, not war.

You know it occurs to me that your view is decidedly one sided. Yes Hamas is pro-genocide of Jews, that's fucking evil. But plenty of Israelis are pro-genocide of Palestinians, including many member of the Israeli government. And, and this is key, unlike Hamas Israel not only has the power to actually do so, the policies they have enacted are working towards that goal.

And yet your solution is to give that genocide engaging regime the Lebensraum they so desperately want. A solution that will inevitably lead to ethnically cleansing Gaza.

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5 hours ago, Spockydog said:

No.

And look, if you want to call me an anti-Semite, have at it. I mean, I honestly couldn't give a fish's tit what religion anybody practices because there's no such thing as god, but I have strong feelings of support for the Palestinians. That's about enough these days, wouldn't you say?

I have not called you anti-Semitic in the least, and have tried to turn down the volume on this conversation. And like I said before, I'm not religious and share your views in general on religion, but I am still Jewish.

Meyers Leonard is a very mediocre basketball player. He's a tall guy that can shoot threes, but he's not even very good at that. Think of him like you'd think of a guy on your football's national team who only plays as a reserve to the reserve in friendlies, but still makes the team year in and out. A few months back, while live gaming on Twitch, he called someone a "fucking k*ke." The context was clear, he thought the other gamer "Jew'd" him by beating him. The outrage was quick and severe, but he wasn't cut, and he wasn't booted out of the league until he was traded to and then waived from another team. The outrage over his comments went away after a few days, but Jewish commentators were left dumbfounded, saying that if he had said the N word instead he would have been cut within minutes. It's that feeling of pain going unrecognized that upsets so many Jews, and it very much applies to the topic at hand. I have not in one post in this thread defended the current Israeli government. Netanyahu is a piece of shit bigot who is stoking the situation for his own political benefit and damn him for doing so, but at the same time I can sympathize with the macro level situation, which does also include grieving for Palestinians and their current situation. They absolutely deserve better.

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18 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

You know it occurs to me that your view is decidedly one sided. Yes Hamas is pro-genocide of Jews, that's fucking evil. But plenty of Israelis are pro-genocide of Palestinians, including many member of the Israeli government. And, and this is key, unlike Hamas Israel not only has the power to actually do so, the policies they have enacted are working towards that goal.

And yet your solution is to give that genocide engaging regime the Lebensraum they so desperately want. A solution that will inevitably lead to ethnically cleansing Gaza.

Did you miss this?:

On 5/14/2021 at 10:28 AM, Tywin et al. said:

@Toth and @polishgenius,

I am not saying people here or in the West generally support Hamas, but you can’t gloss over the issue either. Just like you can’t gloss over that many Palestinians wish they would go away and many right wing Israelis actually like that they exist because they can use them to justify the heavy handed actions of the Israeli military.

I have not shied away from the fact that there are Israelis who think that way. Authoritarianism doesn't know race, religion or creed. 

Hamas lacks the military power of the Israeli government. No one debates this. The question is, if the shoe were on the other foot, what do you realistically think would happen?  That's not an illegitimate concern when thinking about a group that just openly says you should die. No nuance, just death.

Regarding Gaza, how is it sustainable as is? My solution has basically been to relocate Jews out of the WB and relocate Palestinians out of Gaza, make the WB a new Palestinian state and ask for the global community to heavily invest in it so it can rapidly develop. Spare no expense whatsoever. 

So how is that not taking the Palestinian plight into count? I want for them exactly what I want for everyone, peace with mutual prosperity. 

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8 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

"I have not called you antisemitic in the least"

Literally four posts after telling me to look up some antisemitic dickhead.

Laters dude.

 

I used that example to highlight why many Jews feel frustrated when people ignore their concerns. At no point did I say or suggest you're anti-Semitic. 

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20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Did you miss this?:

I have not shied away from the fact that there are Israelis who think that way. Authoritarianism doesn't know race, religion or creed. 

Hamas lacks the military power of the Israeli government. No one debates this. The question is, if the shoe were on the other foot, what do you realistically think would happen?  That's not an illegitimate concern when thinking about a group that just openly says you should die. No nuance, just death.

Regarding Gaza, how is it sustainable as is? My solution has basically been to relocate Jews out of the WB and relocate Palestinians out of Gaza, make the WB a new Palestinian state and ask for the global community to heavily invest in it so it can rapidly develop. Spare no expense whatsoever. 

So how is that not taking the Palestinian plight into count? I want for them exactly what I want for everyone, peace with mutual prosperity. 

"My solution is ethnic cleansing, and giving the apartheid ethnostate exactly what they want because I learned from the Neville Chamberlain school of diplomacy."

I missed not a damn thing, and you're still doing the same thing I pointed out but acting like you countered the objection. If the shoe was on the other foot Hamas would attempt to genocide the Israelis just like the Israelis are attempting to genocide them. And yet the way you write entirely centres Israel. Being only concerned with their viewpoint. Yes, the Israelis have a legitimate concern that Hamas would commit genocide if they could, the Palestinians on the other hand are actually facing genocide. You don't seem to give their concerns nearly as much weight. Because again your solution is to complete the ethnic cleansing Israel wants so badly.

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5 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

"My solution is ethnic cleansing, and giving the apartheid ethnostate exactly what they want because I learned from the Neville Chamberlain school of diplomacy."

I missed not a damn thing, and you're still doing the same thing I pointed out but acting like you countered the objection. If the shoe was on the other foot Hamas would attempt to genocide the Israelis just like the Israelis are attempting to genocide them. And yet the way you write entirely centres Israel. Being only concerned with their viewpoint. Yes, the Israelis have a legitimate concern that Hamas would commit genocide if they could, the Palestinians on the other hand are actually facing genocide. You don't seem to give their concerns nearly as much weight. Because again your solution is to complete the ethnic cleansing Israel wants so badly.

Is it ethnic cleansing to say all Israeli settlement expansions in the West Bank are illegal, that those who did so have forfeited their property and need to leave? Seems like you've ignored that part of my argument, one which I made since the start of the thread. 

Also, you're aware that the term "ethno-state" refers to Nazis and white supremacists, the literal people who want to kill every Jew alive, right? 

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54 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I used that example to highlight why many Jews feel frustrated when people ignore their concerns. At no point did I say or suggest you're anti-Semitic. 

As someone that has made similar comments in different context and had people misunderstand what I've been saying I feel the need to jump in and give Tywin the benefit of the doubt on this. I don't think he was saying Spocky was antisemitic, I think he was warning that the language used has a loaded history of use by antisemites and that as such its both going to be more offensive to Jewish people than you'd expect from the literal meaning of the phrase, and that its likely to cause people to make an association between you and them. Its not saying you're antisemitic, its saying "hey you probably want to avoid that specific language".

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25 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Is it ethnic cleansing to say all Israeli settlement expansions in the West Bank are illegal, that those who did so have forfeited their property and need to leave? Seems like you've ignored that part of my argument, one which I made since the start of the thread.

No, because no reasonable definition would include the removal of illegal settlements by people using ethnic cleansing to create those settlements in the first place.

It is however ethnic cleansing to suggest a solution that will, inevitably, result in the forceable removal of all Palestinians from Gaza.

Quote

Also, you're aware that the term "ethno-state" refers to Nazis and white supremacists, the literal people who want to kill every Jew alive, right? 

Yep, and much like the term Lebensraum I'm using it deliberately. If the Israelis want Israel to be a Jewish state, then they need to reckon with what they are actually asking for.

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7 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

No, because no reasonable definition would include the removal of illegal settlements by people using ethnic cleansing to create those settlements in the first place.

And the removal of Jews from the newly established Palestine? No comment? Please stop acting like I'm saying only one side will have to eat it to some degree. You want peace? This seems like the best route to me. We're not making magic here, we're squaring reality. A two state solution is the only option and a non-contagious Palestinian state makes no sense. So you can either connect Gaza with the West Bank, which will never happen, or you have to offer a path that allows for both sides to resettle.

Quote

It is however ethnic cleansing to suggest a solution that will, inevitably, result in the forceable removal of all Palestinians from Gaza.

Articulate a reasonable outcome which leaves Gaza as is. Hamas governed by the way, who would like to ethnically cleans every Jew in the Middle East. That major issue seems to always get overlooked. 

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3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

Articulate a reasonable outcome which leaves Gaza as is. Hamas governed by the way, who would like to ethnically cleans every Jew in the Middle East. That major issue seems to always get overlooked. 

Iran also often says thats what they want too. So the fuck what? We should never talk with them again? 

This argument makes no sense. Hamas position is a political extremist position that is completely orthogonal to human rights abuse and an actual genocide taking place. You can talk about hypothetical all you want but this makes you comparing a reality with a fantasy. 

Put it another way: does anyone doubt that the US would come to the aid in a heartbeat if there was a serious threat to Israel to cause genocide or ethnically cleanse Israel of jews? Because that is literally what is happening to Palestinians right now, and no one is coming to their aid at all. 

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42 minutes ago, karaddin said:

As someone that has made similar comments in different context and had people misunderstand what I've been saying I feel the need to jump in and give Tywin the benefit of the doubt on this. I don't think he was saying Spocky was antisemitic, I think he was warning that the language used has a loaded history of use by antisemites and that as such its both going to be more offensive to Jewish people than you'd expect from the literal meaning of the phrase, and that its likely to cause people to make an association between you and them. Its not saying you're antisemitic, its saying "hey you probably want to avoid that specific language".

I have tried to jump through so many hoops to say people commenting here are not anti-Semitic. What is frustrating is that there doesn't seem to be any interest in kind to understand the Jewish perspective. I have written about how the current Israeli government is terrible and how Netanyahu needs to be ousted (them hopefully held accountable for the crimes he appears to have committed), how the settlements are illegal and should be forfeited, why the Israeli government should foot the bill for a lot of the upheaval this would cost, and why they should also have to invest in schools, hospitals, infrastructure etc. in a new and formally recognized state of Palestine. I'm one to offer almost the whole damn kitchen sink if that's what it takes to have peace outside of one thing, that which is not negotiable, a Jewish state. I don't even care if Jerusalem is fully within its territory. Make it its own country like the Vatican if that's what will bring peace. I just want the violence to stop, and it seems like so many comments, not directing that at anyone here, are making that harder.

I just turned 33. When I was 17 I was offered the chance to live in Israel for a summer, but turned it down because it wasn't safe. I want to be able to return to my ancestral homeland, to take my shoes off and feel the sand between my toes and the sun on my face, knowing that others can feel the same and be at peace. I'll do just about whatever it takes to achieve that, and not just for Jews but for all. 

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Posting an image of a map of that region implying that all of it should be palestine in the guise of concern and peace is the issue. Same with posting something like "From the river to the sea..." sounds beautiful and poetic, in truth both of these call for the destruction of Israel.

And ironically with the rise of antisemitism in Europe and North America, it only proves why Jewish people needed a state in the first place.

Another thing, the word "genocide" is being thrown around, seems like people need to actually check what the definition of the word is, and read about the Palestinian population in order to learn that something doesn't add up. Israel has the power to wipe out Gaza within a night and yet they don't do it... Why is it if the whole purpose is genocide?!

BTW some of the innocent people who died in Gaza died because of Hamas' misfired missiles. Still don't see people condemning them.

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Just now, farerb said:

 

Another thing, the word "genocide" is being thrown around, seems like people need to actually check what the definition of the word is, and read about the Palestinian population in order to learn that something doesn't add up. Israel has the power to wipe out Gaza within a night and yet they don't do it... Why is it if the whole purpose is genocide?!

You apparently need to look it up too. Israel has the power to do it in a couple weeks but it would cost them too much poltically and possibly send them into war. Instead they can follow the standard imperialist system of killing a population by small cuts over a generation and no one cares about it in the aggregate to intervene or stop. America did a great job with the indigenous population in this way. Many other countries too. 

Genocide does not have to be a violent action or a quick one to qualify. 

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1 minute ago, Karlbear said:

You apparently need to look it up too. Israel has the power to do it in a couple weeks but it would cost them too much poltically and possibly send them into war. Instead they can follow the standard imperialist system of killing a population by small cuts over a generation and no one cares about it in the aggregate to intervene or stop. America did a great job with the indigenous population in this way. Many other countries too. 

Genocide does not have to be a violent action or a quick one to qualify. 

Then how come the Palestinian population continue to increase?

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7 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

You apparently need to look it up too. Israel has the power to do it in a couple weeks but it would cost them too much poltically and possibly send them into war. Instead they can follow the standard imperialist system of killing a population by small cuts over a generation and no one cares about it in the aggregate to intervene or stop. America did a great job with the indigenous population in this way. Many other countries too. 

Genocide does not have to be a violent action or a quick one to qualify. 

And yet what about the people who pretty loudly say they're all about committing a genocide if they had the means to do so? Should we just ignore that? 

If your answer amounts to "well it's just a threat," then please apply that logic to all other settings.

 

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