Israel: When the Drums of War Have Reached a Fever Pitch

[Kalbear]

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And yet what about the people who pretty loudly say they're all about committing a genocide if they had the means to do so? Should we just ignore that? 

Yes, because they do not have the means to do it, and you don't have to talk to them any more than you do other wackos. And even more importantly, not a single bit of this justifies any of the actions taken so far by Israel. 

I acknowledge that hamas is a piece of shit. That doesn't justify illegal settlements, an apartheid state, blowing up whole buildings instead of individual apartments (which is what Israel did 20 years ago, so its not like they don't have the tech), using the police to brutalize and oppress a population or the continued escalation of violence. 

You keep saying you want peace - well, you need to start with stopping the actual aggressor in the last 20 years. Otherwise you're basically saying that Russia has a right to defend itself from the Ukrainian troops that happen to be near the land Russia is occupying. 

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

If your answer amounts to "well it's just a threat," then please apply that logic to all other settings.

The reaction is that a threat is not as bad as active genocide and ethnic cleansing.

[Kalbear]

30 minutes ago, farerb said:

Then how come the Palestinian population continue to increase?

So what? This is so ludicrous. This is like saying that indigenous populations are increasing in the US. When you're forced to relocate off your home, forced to go elsewhere because you can't get water or work a farm, it is still the same. We haven't hit that breaking point of refugee resettlement yet, but that's exactly where we are heading. 

Also, the idea that it is okay to justify any actions taken against Palestinians because of hamas but continue to say how Netanyahu doesn't represent all of Israel is so obviously hypocritical. 

[Farerb]

15 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

So what? This is so ludicrous. This is like saying that indigenous populations are increasing in the US. When you're forced to relocate off your home, forced to go elsewhere because you can't get water or work a farm, it is still the same. We haven't hit that breaking point of refugee resettlement yet, but that's exactly where we are heading. 

Also, the idea that it is okay to justify any actions taken against Palestinians because of hamas but continue to say how Netanyahu doesn't represent all of Israel is so obviously hypocritical. 

But we were talking specifically about genocide , not about apartheid.

I never said Hamas represents Palestinians, I actually said it actively hurts them.

It's also important to differentiates Israel's actions in the West Bank vs their actions in Gaza. Israel's actions in Gaza are justified because Israel and the IDF's job is to protect their citizens, and no country in the world would have stood up for missiles being launched at them. The IDF tries to operate with as few civilian casualties as possible, it actually stopped an operation because there were too many civilians involved, something that again no country in the world would have done.

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, farerb said:

But we were talking specifically about genocide , not about apartheid.

Apartheid + forced removal from homes is by definition an act of genocide.

8 minutes ago, farerb said:

I never said Hamas represents Palestinians, I actually said it actively hurts them.

Then why bring their atrocities up when talking about helping Palestinians?

8 minutes ago, farerb said:

It's also important to differentiates Israel's actions in the West Bank vs their actions in Gaza. Israel's actions in Gaza are justified because Israel and the IDF's job is to protect their citizens, and no country in the world would have stood up for missiles being launched at them. The IDF tries to operate with as few civilian casualties as possible, it actually stopped an operation because there were too many civilians involved, something that again no country in the world would have done.

The IDF has had this exact situation happen multiple times in the last 20 years. This is the first time where they have gone for absolute destruction of buildings and neighborhoods instead of precision attacks. 

Israel's actions in Gaza are not particularly justified when they are the ones who violently sent their police in at a holy site and also evicted Palestinians from east Jerusalem. And even if that were not the case- which it is - Israel has decided to blow more shit up than they did in the past. 

This tactic is a time honored one used by lots if racist cops and organizations. This is literally the justification of the Tulsa massacre in 1921. 

But tell me this - how does it make sense operationally to want to take out a hamas asset by first warning everyone in the building an hour ahead of time and then blowing the whole building up? That isn't a defensive action nor is it a smart military action- its not like an office building by itself is a strategic or tactical threat. It gives the enemy all the time they need to go somewhere else. What value does it serve?

[polishgenius]

Some of the piling on Tywin in this topic is frankly outrageous. He's said multiple times that he condemns Israel's government, views it as an apartheid state, etc etc, yet y'all are demanding he do it every single time in the exact form you want him to in order for him to say anything at all implying the situation, beyond the immediate, is complicated. It's exactly the same instinct that sees right wingers demand Muslims performatively take responsibility for all Islamic terrorism if they want to express anything other than complete satisfaction with the West.

Like, Elneny's post. It's pretty likely Elneny didn't know what he was posting there, and most people seeing it won't either, so Lavazza's reaction was ridiculous and should have been more along the lines of exactly what Tywin did here, which is gently clarify that it's a particular image that is the problem and not support for Palestine, but Tywin did that and is still getting the flack for what Lavazza did and accused of suggesting other people are anti semtitic when he didn't even close to.


I get that the current situation is an enraging issue with us being bombarded by horrifying, devastating imagery and stories, and that the main focus of our thoughts is that this shit right now needs to stop, and hell, I've not agreed with everything Tywin's said here, but some of you are reacting as if he's said he supports genocide any time he so much as points out that the background issue is complex and unsolvable.

[Farerb]

20 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

Apartheid + forced removal from homes is by definition an act of genocide.

Then why bring their atrocities up when talking about helping Palestinians?

The IDF has had this exact situation happen multiple times in the last 20 years. This is the first time where they have gone for absolute destruction of buildings and neighborhoods instead of precision attacks. 

Israel's actions in Gaza are not particularly justified when they are the ones who violently sent their police in at a holy site and also evicted Palestinians from east Jerusalem. And even if that were not the case- which it is - Israel has decided to blow more shit up than they did in the past. 

This tactic is a time honored one used by lots if racist cops and organizations. This is literally the justification of the Tulsa massacre in 1921. 

But tell me this - how does it make sense operationally to want to take out a hamas asset by first warning everyone in the building an hour ahead of time and then blowing the whole building up? That isn't a defensive action nor is it a smart military action- its not like an office building by itself is a strategic or tactical threat. It gives the enemy all the time they need to go somewhere else. What value does it serve?

Because if you cared about Palestinians, you'd condemn Hamas and Hamas' actions, but it seems to be more about hating Israel than actually caring about Palestinians.

The situation in Shiek Jarah is in dispute and is currently in the hands of the court, as far as I know the four families (out of 28 by the way) don't have any documentation that proves that they are the owners of the respective houses (I was actually informed of this by a Lebanese lawyer). And yes there were radical Israeli that arrived there to create provocation and many Israeli condemned them.

Rhe situation with Al-Aqsa Mosque was blown out of proportion, the Israeli police came there in order to seize rocks that were meant to be thrown at Israeli who comes to the Western Wall to pray.

None of these justified Hamas launching missiles at Israeli population. They're actual motivation was Abbas cancelling the election and portraying themselves as "Defenders of Jerusalem".

The buildings holds equipment used by Hamas - Launchers, missiles, intelligence information. Israel's goal is to destroy this equipment, which is why it informs the residents to evict in advance, because they don't want to hurt them, they want to destroy this equipment. Hamas knows that by hiding this equipment in Schools, hospitals, news outlets, it will either make Israel hesitant to destroy the building or if Israel does destroy the building it can be used against them.

[polishgenius]

9 minutes ago, farerb said:

Because if you cared about Palestinians, you'd condemn Hamas and Hamas' actions,

 

 

Good grief this is the same issue I just said above but in the opposite way. I did mention it earlier in the topic that in the context of the wider, general discussion in the world we need to be careful not to let the discourse forget who Hamas are, but one doesn't need to preface every criticism of Israel with 'but Hamas are also bad' because the conversation already assumes that. Like if you're in a place, or saying something, that there is a danger that anti-semites will be able to misinterpret and key off what you say, clarify, but that isn't the case here. You doing it just just trying to derail the conversation away from meaningful discussion of what Israel is doing/

[Fury Resurrected]

27 minutes ago, farerb said:

Because if you cared about Palestinians, you'd condemn Hamas and Hamas' actions, but it seems to be more about hating Israel than actually caring about Palestinians.

The situation in Shiek Jarah is in dispute and is currently in the hands of the court, as far as I know the four families (out of 28 by the way) don't have any documentation that proves that they are the owners of the respective houses (I was actually informed of this by a Lebanese lawyer). And yes there were radical Israeli that arrived there to create provocation and many Israeli condemned them.

Rhe situation with Al-Aqsa Mosque was blown out of proportion, the Israeli police came there in order to seize rocks that were meant to be thrown at Israeli who comes to the Western Wall to pray.

None of these justified Hamas launching missiles at Israeli population. They're actual motivation was Abbas cancelling the election and portraying themselves as "Defenders of Jerusalem".

The buildings holds equipment used by Hamas - Launchers, missiles, intelligence information. Israel's goal is to destroy this equipment, which is why it informs the residents to evict in advance, because they don't want to hurt them, they want to destroy this equipment. Hamas knows that by hiding this equipment in Schools, hospitals, news outlets, it will either make Israel hesitant to destroy the building or if Israel does destroy the building it can be used against them.

How can you blow an event that left hundreds of people in a house of worship wounded out of proportion?? You have to understand why that’s a really big deal

[Farerb]

11 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

How can you blow an event that left hundreds of people in a house of worship wounded out of proportion?? You have to understand why that’s a really big deal

Because saying "hundreds" IS blowing it out of proportion. Probably dozens. Once again there were images that proves that they were hiding rocks inside the mosque, should the police have done nothing? I don't know sometimes it feels like people expect Israeli to sit quietly and get hurt.

 

By the way, here are images that demonstrate Israel's apartheid:

https://i.postimg.cc/1X1qmqgB/000-1-GC2-EO-1024x640.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/qqcCzvyT/Screenshot-20210517-094120.png

https://i.postimg.cc/q7f0ZXW1/Screenshot-20210517-094754.png

 

 

[Fury Resurrected]

23 minutes ago, farerb said:

Because saying "hundreds" IS blowing it out of proportion. Probably dozens. Once again there were images that proves that they were hiding rocks inside the mosque, should the police have done nothing? I don't know sometimes it feels like people expect Israeli to sit quietly and get hurt.

 

By the way, here are images that demonstrate Israel's apartheid:

https://i.postimg.cc/1X1qmqgB/000-1-GC2-EO-1024x640.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/qqcCzvyT/Screenshot-20210517-094120.png

https://i.postimg.cc/q7f0ZXW1/Screenshot-20210517-094754.png

 

 

Many independent news sources say hundreds. You’ll excuse me not taking a post on a message board as a news source. And yes, I think the presence of rocks someplace is not a reason to use violence on hundreds of people. I have a rock in my pocket right now. A pile of rocks is not the same thing as say, a stockpile of guns.

[mormont]

[mod] Folks, it should go without saying that this is a highly emotive topic. Please try not to make it even more so. People have a right to strong opinions on this but if you're feeling angry, take a moment to pause and think before you post. Thank you. [/mod]

[Pebble thats Stubby]

Hamas is a piece of shit and a  terrorist organisation. Yes they want to wipe out Israel.

Yes they have massive support of the Palestine population.  Now I'm not from Palestine but I reckon one of the reasons they get so much support from the local Palestine population is because the actions Israel takes in its right to self defence with no sign of it stopping.  Especially when the rest of the world at best occasionally says a few words of mild condemnation while actively supporting Israel for political reasons.  The only people who actually seem to do anything when your home / school / hospital is destroyed or someone you know is killed is Hamas.  the fact that all Hamas does is give Israel the reason and excuse to destroy your home in the first place I bet is kinda irrelevant to why you end up supporting them.

 

I am in no way justifying Hamas, or any of their actions, But I recognise why they are supported and in power.  Every innocent Palatine death or loss of home by Israel just makes Hamas more powerful.

 

If Israel has the right to defend itself, so should Palestine.

 

The cycle of violence is never stopped by more violence.

There will not be piece until both peoples have hope, cos when hope is gone there is only Hate.

 

I don't have a solution, but I do know the first actions will need to start with Israeli actions.  I say this not because Israel is more or less in the wrong (I'm not sure we can define who is more to blame and would be useless to do so) But because they are the one with the most power and are not in such a desperate situation just to survive.

[Ser Reptitious]

8 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I just think it's not possible to have Gaza and the WB exist as one state without a shared border. That's why I think in some magical deal you give Gaza to Israel, the WB becomes an independent Palestinian state, people from said areas are relocated to some degree at their choice, and then we build from there.

Just out of curiosity, why do you believe that? The Kaliningrad Oblast is not physically connected to the rest of Russia, nor the Nakchivan region to the rest of Azerbaijan, to name just two other examples. The lack of a land connection may perhaps be somewhat inconvenient, but I don't see why it would be a deal-breaker. 

7 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Regarding Gaza, how is it sustainable as is? My solution has basically been to relocate Jews out of the WB and relocate Palestinians out of Gaza, make the WB a new Palestinian state and ask for the global community to heavily invest in it so it can rapidly develop. Spare no expense whatsoever. 

If an actual, lasting peace was achieved, why would Gaza not be sustainable, either as part of a non-contiguous Palestinian state or even as it's own independent micro-state, similar to Monaco, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein, etc? Its location on the Mediterranean would allow it to build a sea port and import what it needs that way. Also, if peace is achieved, presumably that would mean no further economic blockade from Israel, so goods could also be exchanged via land routes? 

6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Articulate a reasonable outcome which leaves Gaza as is. Hamas governed by the way, who would like to ethnically cleans every Jew in the Middle East. That major issue seems to always get overlooked. 

Are you arguing that Gaza in and of itself is not viable, or instead that a Hamas-run independent Gaza is not a viable option from Israel's perspective? Those are two very different discussion, so I just want to be sure which one (or both?) we are having here.

Regarding the latter, obviously no final peace settlement would be signed off on without the Hamas issue being addressed (sort of like IRA violence had to be addressed as part of the Good Friday Agreement). 

[Bael's Bastard]

12 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Mohamed Elneny, an Egyptian Muslim who plays football for Arsenal is in trouble for one of his tweets.

Israeli coffee maker, Lavazza, who sponsor the club, issued the following statement, whilst demanding the club take disciplinary action against the player.

Here follows the offending tweet. Trigger Warning - Gal Gadot, if you're reading this, for the sake of the babies, I urge you to look away now.

Go fuck yourselves, Lavazza. Your coffee tastes like goat vomit.

 

The fact that you don't see the issue with someone posting maps that erase 6 million Jews from existence is, well, not surprising in the least based on your other posts on this topic. Should be needless to say that unless you are hoping to see one side wipe the other out, your input is just inciting hatred against one side.

[Bael's Bastard]

10 hours ago, Spockydog said:

No.

And look, if you want to call me an anti-Semite, have at it.

I mean, I honestly couldn't give a fish's tit what religion anybody practices, because there's no such thing as god. But I do have strong feelings of support for the Palestinians.

That's probably enough these days, wouldn't you say?

If you think antisemitism means "having something against a religion," than you are even more ignorant about the conflict in general and Jews in particular than you already appeared. The attempt to deny Jewish peoplehood and shove us into a religious box is a European and Russian innovation that was forced upon Jews within the last few centuries in the guise of giving us "rights." Like most ancient peoples, we have components to every walk of life including land and religion, but the idea of a "Jewish religion" distinct from peoplehood is a non-Jewish invention that has been forced on us and used against us. So if you want to spread hatred, you can try to hide behind religion, but we see you.

[Bael's Bastard]

11 hours ago, Spockydog said:

I have an issue with the absurd accusations of racism and antisemitism. It's fucking pathetic, and devalues the fight against actual, non-imagined racism. 

And why would Elneny's tweet, a simple message of support for his Palestinian brethren, spook so many Jews? Eh? Is it because this heartfelt, non-violent expression of solidarity with a brutally oppressed people might make some elements of polite Israeli society pause for a moment of introspection, and, perhaps, feel some tiny fucking morsel of shame?

 

 

Because the map he posted erases Israel and its 6 million Jews, exactly the aim of Hamas, and the aim of Fatah until it paid lip service to peace before reverting back to refusing every peace offer.

[baxus]

5 hours ago, farerb said:

Because if you cared about Palestinians, you'd condemn Hamas and Hamas' actions, but it seems to be more about hating Israel than actually caring about Palestinians.

The situation in Shiek Jarah is in dispute and is currently in the hands of the court, as far as I know the four families (out of 28 by the way) don't have any documentation that proves that they are the owners of the respective houses (I was actually informed of this by a Lebanese lawyer). And yes there were radical Israeli that arrived there to create provocation and many Israeli condemned them.

Rhe situation with Al-Aqsa Mosque was blown out of proportion, the Israeli police came there in order to seize rocks that were meant to be thrown at Israeli who comes to the Western Wall to pray.

None of these justified Hamas launching missiles at Israeli population. They're actual motivation was Abbas cancelling the election and portraying themselves as "Defenders of Jerusalem".

The buildings holds equipment used by Hamas - Launchers, missiles, intelligence information. Israel's goal is to destroy this equipment, which is why it informs the residents to evict in advance, because they don't want to hurt them, they want to destroy this equipment. Hamas knows that by hiding this equipment in Schools, hospitals, news outlets, it will either make Israel hesitant to destroy the building or if Israel does destroy the building it can be used against them.

Not everything that is said against the state of Israel is hate. This might come as a surprise to you, but Israel is not perfect by any stretch of imagination and is definitely not an innocent victim of evil people in its surrounding. Saying that does not mean that I think Palestinians are without blame in this conflict that has been going on for ages. The "noble Elves vs foul Orcs" works in LotR and nowhere else. There's a reason that even fantasy literature (at least good fantasy literature) moved on from that.

"We only did this and that and that's no justification for what they did next" is a perfect example of mentality that's not going to help one bit in solving this conflict. While both sides are focusing on other side's wrongdoings and using them as excuses there will not be a breakthrough in peace talks. Once both sides start judging their own who act in an unacceptable fashion there will at least be a possibility of reaching some sort of an agreement.

[Bael's Bastard]

11 hours ago, Spockydog said:

And look, while I'm no expert in international relations, if Israel wants the world to stop hating it, maybe try dialling down the genocide a notch or two.....? One for the suggestion box, at least.

You could have acknowledged you're not an expert and acted accordingly.

Instead you accuse a country of genocide in a conflict that has probably claimed less than 150k lives on all sides in a century. Absolutely awful for all actually involved, but fucking far from genocide.

Israel's Arab population has grown from 150k to nearly 2m since 1948, and they have full civil and religious rights.

Israeli Arabs: 1.8m

Jews in Hamas-ruled Gaza: 0

Jews in Fatah-ruled WB: 0

Jews in Arab states: <5,000, down from over 1m in 1939

Jews in European states: <1,300,000, down from 9.5m in 1939

Total Jewish population of the entirety of Europe, FSR, Middle East, and North Africa is less than 1.4m combined, down from over 10.5m in 1939 because of actual genocide as well as ethnic cleansing.

There are literally more Arab citizens of Israel with full civil and religious rights than are left in Europe, Former Soviet Union, and our MENA diasporas combined.

But keep ranting unhinged on a message board, I'm sure you'll help end the occupation by throwing ignorant genocide, apartheid, etc. accusations around against Jews.

[Bael's Bastard]

9 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

"My solution is ethnic cleansing, and giving the apartheid ethnostate exactly what they want because I learned from the Neville Chamberlain school of diplomacy."

I missed not a damn thing, and you're still doing the same thing I pointed out but acting like you countered the objection. If the shoe was on the other foot Hamas would attempt to genocide the Israelis just like the Israelis are attempting to genocide them. And yet the way you write entirely centres Israel. Being only concerned with their viewpoint. Yes, the Israelis have a legitimate concern that Hamas would commit genocide if they could, the Palestinians on the other hand are actually facing genocide. You don't seem to give their concerns nearly as much weight. Because again your solution is to complete the ethnic cleansing Israel wants so badly.

Literally nobody in Israel wants Gaza. Most Israelis don't even want the West Bank. But there is zero chance of unilateral withdrawal after doing so from Gaza. Hence why a final status agreement on two states (at least) is and has always been the only answer to the conflict. Seriously, you guys could easily read a fucking book or two, but you seem to be getting your information from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion fabrication.

[Bael's Bastard]

9 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

No, because no reasonable definition would include the removal of illegal settlements by people using ethnic cleansing to create those settlements in the first place.

It is however ethnic cleansing to suggest a solution that will, inevitably, result in the forceable removal of all Palestinians from Gaza.

Yep, and much like the term Lebensraum I'm using it deliberately. If the Israelis want Israel to be a Jewish state, then they need to reckon with what they are actually asking for.

Comparing Jews to Nazis is literal antisemitism.

And yes, removing settlements of Jews from their indigenous homeland is ethnic cleansing, no matter how badly you wish to ignore that the reason there was no Jews for twenty years under Jordan is because they were all ethnically cleansed from the West Bank/Judah and Samaria, and the reason there were so few before they were ethnically cleansed is because of historic Muslim and Christian imperialism, colonialism, slavery, genocide, and ethnic cleansing against indigenous Jewish communities.

I don't agree with Tywin's plan at all, but literally tens of millions of people were transferred between newly formed countries based on ethnic, religious, etc. at the same exact time.

You can talk about Israeli ethnic cleansing all you want, but your inability to acknowledge the reality Jews have experienced in our indigenous land and our ancient MENA diasporas at the hands of both European and MENA imperialism and colonialism and using Nazi language to describe us, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish but it's certainly not peace between Arabs and Jews.