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Israel: When the Drums of War Have Reached a Fever Pitch

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17 minutes ago, DMC said:

Saw that the owner was warned in advance and the building was evacuated.

One hour only.

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27 minutes ago, Padraig said:

Yes.  I don't see where that interpretation comes from.

I think I posted 15 years ago that this situation reminds me of the maxim "the beatings will continue until morale improves".  One can justify actions in the singular but in the long view, there is no progress.  Israel has tried to make it as tolerable as possible for itself but the gaping sore continues to exist.

There are red lines that people will agree with (Israel is largely a Jewish state, apartheid isn't a solution, no forced displacement of people).  But the sore will continue to exist.

While this is all true, Israel's action in the intervening 15 years have changed the groundwork such that those red lines are even more difficult to reconcile and a solution seems even further out of reach. The two-state solution, as others have already noted, has almost disappeared as an option as creating a viable Palestinian state (that Israel will accept) has become so difficult as to be almost impossible and certainly not without forced displacement of people. But that leaves us with a single-state solution, which brings the other two apparently contradictory elements into play.

I genuinely can't even imagine a long-term solution to this that doesn't involve large scale loss of life and displacement of people and that is awful.

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A viable Palestinian state can be created relatively dependent on a final status agreement. The issue is not and has never been settlements, the majority of which are located on about 5% of the WB around Jerusalem, and the rest which would have to be evacuated with Israel doing the hard and dirty work (in other words, the "ethnic cleansing" of tens of thousands of Jews from their indigenous homeland that so many outside players are so eager to see). The issue that always kills the talks is the demand of not just a Palestinian right of return of millions to Palestine (Gaza, WB), but a right of return of millions to Israel. In other words, not a two state solution, but a Palestinian majority Israel that can democratically dismantle it as a Jewish refuge and an ethnically pure Palestine next to it. We can go on about atrocious anecdotes we have experienced or have family and friends that have experienced, but that is all a result of refusal of one side to accept any deal before or after Oslo. Anyone that thinks one state is the answer ignores why there was a partition plan in the first place, and how nearly a million Jews, all except around 5k, were driven out of our nearly 3000 year old MENA diasporas by Arab Muslim governments. We cannot and do not and will not trust others to protect us ever again.

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I just had to look up how those 5% around the immediate vicinity of Jerusalem look like: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/F78D/production/_109737336_west_bank_settlements_oct_2019_640_3x-nc.png

Suuuuuure.

Meanwhile the IDF claims the media tower was used by Hamas military intelligence:

The same article that linked to this mentioned that the Hamas has announced retaliatory strikes on Tel Aviv for this... And so the wheel turns and turns and turns...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Toth said:

I just had to look up how those 5% around the immediate vicinity of Jerusalem look like: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/F78D/production/_109737336_west_bank_settlements_oct_2019_640_3x-nc.png

Suuuuuure.

Meanwhile the IDF claims the media tower was used by Hamas military intelligence:

The same article that linked to this mentioned that the Hamas has announced retaliatory strikes on Tel Aviv for this... And so the wheel turns and turns and turns...

You are confusing the areas Israel controls per Oslo with the main blocs Israel will almost certainly keep in any agreement. 70-75% of settlers are in the main blocs near Jerusalem. The rest are smaller more isolated ones, though in total make up tens of thousands of Jews. A map of Olmert's offer in 2008 and Barak's offer in 2000 would be more accurate as to how this might look.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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as old, complicated and sensitive as it all is we should have the basic human decency to be able to call out israel for what they are. the United States and their allies sitting idly aside ignoring it as they always have are cowards at best and conspirators at worst.

we have invaded and occupied countries for less historically. but we aided israel since the very beginning. what is happening there is shameful.

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4 hours ago, mormont said:

While this is all true, Israel's action in the intervening 15 years have changed the groundwork such that those red lines are even more difficult to reconcile and a solution seems even further out of reach. The two-state solution, as others have already noted, has almost disappeared as an option as creating a viable Palestinian state (that Israel will accept) has become so difficult as to be almost impossible and certainly not without forced displacement of people. But that leaves us with a single-state solution, which brings the other two apparently contradictory elements into play.

I genuinely can't even imagine a long-term solution to this that doesn't involve large scale loss of life and displacement of people and that is awful.

That's where my thoughts were heading but better said.  Sadly, the world rarely gets leaders that push us on a better path.  And Israel/Palestine really seem short of anything close.  While the rest of the world has no clue.

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Would it be too conspiractionalist to suggest that those in charge of the decision - whether it's Netenyahu or some ally of his making it- to bomb the AP/Al Jazeera building knew exactly what it would do to international perception and coverage of the situation and did so on purpose to try to create an us-against-them mentality they can exploit?

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Our Israeli-Jewish friends (who are culturally Jewish, identify as Jewish (but are not religious practitioners beyond seders and so on, like Christians who baptize and observe Christmas, but belong to no congregation), including the three we know who are the grandchildren of the Founding Families, are heart sick, heart broken and blame entirely Netanyahu, etc. for this.

 

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10 hours ago, Zorral said:

Our Israeli-Jewish friends (who are culturally Jewish, identify as Jewish (but are not religious practitioners beyond seders and so on, like Christians who baptize and observe Christmas, but belong to no congregation), including the three we know who are the grandchildren of the Founding Families, are heart sick, heart broken and blame entirely Netanyahu, etc. for this.

 

They sound very similar to my in-laws.

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All I know is that it's sad and unfortunate that these, seemingly religious groups, cannot peacefully exist alongside one another.

I cannot shake the perception that they all would be so much improved by a great wave of atheism completely blanketing the region and leaving all division in its wake. 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

All I know is that it's sad and unfortunate that these, seemingly religious groups, cannot peacefully exist alongside one another.

I cannot shake the perception that they all would be so much improved by a great wave of atheism completely blanketing the region and leaving all division in its wake. 

Speaking as an agnostic myself, religion may play a part, but more likely than not it serves as a convenient excuse. If Israeli and Palestinians shared the same religion, the ones among them looking for continued conflict would find some other reason. World Wars I and II, the American Civil War, and countless other examples where opposite sides (more or less) were of the same religion, are proof of that. 

Although I agree that it would at least remove one arrow from their quiver. 

Edited by Ser Reptitious

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Religion clearly can't be separated from the reasons why this conflict exists in the first place... but equally, you can't separate out other factors from religion in telling that story either. Racism, persecution, resource shortages, culture clashes, colonialism and the legacy thereof, the Cold War, wider regional politics, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the list goes on and on. If you want someone or something to blame, you're not short of candidates, but you'll never find one factor that could solve the whole mess if you could magically take it out of the mix.

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It's interesting that race should have any role though. I think genetically the most ancient people of the region all derived from the same lineage. The Palestinians and the Jews are identically the same if you go back enough, that is before even monotheism took root.

It's just a modern construct they've created to view themselves as separate people's.

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Everyone is genetically the same if you go back far enough: that's both the best possible argument you can make and one not helpful at all in solving this or any other conflict situation right now.

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49 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

It's interesting that race should have any role though. I think genetically the most ancient people of the region all derived from the same lineage. The Palestinians and the Jews are identically the same if you go back enough, that is before even monotheism took root.

It's just a modern construct they've created to view themselves as separate people's.

Racism has a very strong role in why Israel exists in its modern form. That has nothing to do with genetic differences between Israelis and Palestinians.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

All I know is that it's sad and unfortunate that these, seemingly religious groups, cannot peacefully exist alongside one another.

I cannot shake the perception that they all would be so much improved by a great wave of atheism completely blanketing the region and leaving all division in its wake. 

We are different ethnic groups, aside from religious and national differences. Atheism wouldn't dent the issue, just like atheism in Europe hasn't gotten rid of the Christian-based biases European societies still exhibit.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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5 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Israeli bombing damaged a MSF clinic.

 

Surely if someone tells them about atheism and how they're, like, totes the same race, everyone will realize the error of their ways. I await with baited breath.

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I’d point out that Moshe Dayan, a fierce and ruthless defender of Israel, was an atheist. After his death one of his sons said he regretted saying the prayers for the dead over his body because his father hadn’t had a shred of faith in him.

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