NBA Playoffs - Play In? PLAY-IN It Cool

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

I've said this since Kawhi was in Toronto, don't remember if it was immediately before or after they won. Not that he is a bad defender, mind, just that he's only 80-90% of what he was and is rarely on their primary ball handler but chilling on the side. If he is doing a LeBron style energy conservation, its past time he turns it up.

Kawhi was clearly hurt during their title run and he never looked the same afterwards, but that decline was from the best wing defender to just one of the elite wing defender. He's fallen off from that point too. I'm sure he can summon that still now and then, but that top gear is gone.

 

23 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Not a good question, Jordan stopped people because you know he actually beat them and didn't lose in the finals, or ECF.

Demar DeRozan? The problem is for most of LeBrons career the east sucked and the West sent the same 3 teams to the finals and they usually beat him.  There isn't a lot that he stopped, sure the Heat stopped the Thunder that one year, and the Warriors once and Spurs once.  But the latter two got their titles and Durant got his on GS.  Lowry and Ibaka on TO.  Jimmy Butler?

The question is made more complicated by the era of super teams. Guys won titles who otherwise wouldn't have because of him, and when an opposing super team wins several guys get their rings.

The name that comes to mind for me is Melo. There was actually a debate as to who to pick first overall when they came out, Melo was a top five player for stretches of his career and the two played in the East when they were in their primes.

[Wilbur]

45 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Was the Clips offense a little stronger when they still had Lou Williams?

He was a guy that could give them 20 pts in 20 minutes at times...

Lou Williams is a player that seems wildly underrated by front offices and coaches.  If I was running a team, I would Tom Thibodeau him until his legs fell off.

[Slurktan]

2 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Lou Williams is a player that seems wildly underrated by front offices and coaches.  If I was running a team, I would Tom Thibodeau him until his legs fell off.

Lou Williams is a player that seems wildly overrated by fans and broadcasters.  He plays zero defence and against competent teams not much offense in the playoffs.

[Maithanet]

Jordan "stopping" people from winning a championship is also aided by the fact that the Pistons/Lakers won all the titles before the Bulls, the Rockets won in 1994 and 1995 (after Orlando knocked out Jordan I might add) and then the Spurs and Lakers were the only teams in the five years after Jordan.  So if you didn't play for one of those four teams (or with Jordan) then that's a 17 year stretch where you aren't going to win a title.  If the Jazz had won in 1998 and the Knicks in 1995, then the list of great players Jordan "stopped" would have essentially just been Barkley and Miller. 

But if you are talking about guys with no rings who Lebron eliminated when they had strong teams around them, the list is Rose (2011), Westbrook and Harden (2012), George (2013) and Butler (2020).  And he could potentially add Paul to that list this year, although a lot of people and injuries played a part in that drama. 

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

There was actually a debate as to who to pick first overall when they came out

No there wasn't.  Actually, if anything, there was more debate about Darko going first than Carmelo due to the former being hyped up by guys like Chad Ford.

[Maithanet]

Yeah, there was definitely discussion about who would go second, particularly since that pick was held by an already good Pistons team. Nobody who knew anything about basketball questioned LeBron at 1.

[SkynJay]

There was debate about who should win ROY, with Melo getting his team to the playoffs.  But there was no debate about who would go #1.

Melo was kept from the championship by Kobe though, not LeBron.  He really only had a chance the one year.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

29 minutes ago, DMC said:

No there wasn't.  Actually, if anything, there was more debate about Darko going first than Carmelo due to the former being hyped up by guys like Chad Ford.

A quick Google search says otherwise. It was a minority opinion to be sure, but it was a topic of debate. I'm laughing at one hysterically, as Dan Le Batard wanted Melo more and yet LeBron is the guy that made him who he is today. That's hilarious.

I don't recall anyone really saying Darko should be taken over Melo or LeBron, but those takes are there too, with D'Antoni saying in a few years Darko would be the best of the three players.

[DMC]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

A quick Google search says otherwise. It was a minority opinion to be sure, but it was a topic of debate.

Well sure, there's always some debate, but it's revisionist history to suggest there was any serious debate and/or doubt that LeBron was going first.

And yeah, the point is there was more people that thought even Darko should go ahead of Carmelo - evidenced by the fact that he did.  The Pistons pick was controversial, but nobody seriously questioned the Cavs taking LeBron over Melo.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well sure, there's always some debate, but it's revisionist history to suggest there was any serious debate and/or doubt that LeBron was going first.

If by serious debate you mean two somewhat equal camps then sure, that was never the case, but I do recall it being more than just a few people at the fringes, and the argument for Melo at the time did at least have some merit. I think everyone that wasn't advocating for Darko would say LeBron's ceiling was higher, but Melo was more proven and the difference in their talent levels at the time was in question. LeBron was all but a lock once Cleveland got the pick, but prior to that I think it's fair to say it wasn't as certain as in 2019 when pretty much every agreed that Zion was the pick.
 

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And yeah, the point is there was more people that thought even Darko should go ahead of Carmelo - evidenced by the fact that he did.  The Pistons pick was controversial, but nobody seriously questioned the Cavs taking LeBron over Melo.

Like I said before, I really don't remember anyone serious saying LeBron and Melo shouldn't be the top two picks, but the takes are out there. I wonder how many titles the Pistons could have won if they had taken Melo given that he would have been a damn good fit on that team. 

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

but I do recall it being more than just a few people at the fringes, and the argument for Melo at the time did at least have some merit.

I mean, do I recall talking heads "debating" if Melo should go over LeBron?  Yeah, probably.  But that's because that's what talking heads talk about.  No one really took it seriously.  LeBron was as much a prohibitive/consensus #1 as anyone I can remember.

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I really don't remember anyone serious saying LeBron and Melo shouldn't be the top two picks, but the takes are out there.

What the hell are you talking about?  There were plenty of people that thought the Pistons should take Darko at two.  Including, ya know, the Pistons.  The Darko hype was very, very real.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, do I recall talking heads "debating" if Melo should go over LeBron?  Yeah, probably.  But that's because that's what talking heads talk about.  No one really took it seriously.  LeBron was as much a prohibitive/consensus #1 as anyone I can remember.

Like I said, not like Zion. Next to nobody said he wouldn't go one, and the few who did cited his body and injuries as a concern, which is funny because it was a two player draft and I'd be way more concerned about Ja's career being derailed by injury given how skinny he is.

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What the hell are you talking about?  There were plenty of people that thought the Pistons should take Darko at two.  Including, ya know, the Pistons.  The Darko hype was very, very real.

I watched the talking heads for hours a day at times back when I was a freshman in HS and Darko was barely mentioned. He got nowhere near the coverage Melo did.

Unrelated, but this is pretty funny: Knicks fans, for better or worse, don't change:
 

 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Like I said, not like Zion.

No, not like Zion.  LeBron was more of a prohibitive favorite than Zion.  It was a year long coronation.  ESPN broadcasted one of his fucking high school games.

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I watched the talking heads for hours a day at times back when I was a freshman in HS and Darko was barely mentioned. He got nowhere near the coverage Melo did.

Again, Chad Ford was up Darko's ass for the entire lead up to the draft - and been rightfully made fun of for it ever since.  Ford was THE draft guy at ESPN at the time.  If you didn't pick up on that as an avid sports fan, you're pretty bad at being a sports fan.  Moreover, everybody knew the Pistons were going to take Darko, Dumars didn't really hide it.  Were there lots of people that thought they should have taken Melo instead?  Yes, definitely.  But there was plenty of Darko defenders as well.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

26 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, not like Zion.  LeBron was more of a prohibitive favorite than Zion.  It was a year long coronation.  ESPN broadcasted one of his fucking high school games.

Same was true with Zion, and he was seen as the number one pick the moment people saw he could do more than dunk. He was literally at the top of every credible mock draft. There was zero doubt he was going to be the topic pick just a few games into his Duke tenure because it was obvious he was so much better than his teammate who was the top recruit out of HS.

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Again, Chad Ford was up Darko's ass for the entire lead up to the draft - and been rightfully made fun of for it ever since.  Ford was THE draft guy at ESPN at the time.  If you didn't pick up on that as an avid sports fan, you're pretty bad at being a sports fan.  

Or maybe I just never took Ford seriously. Just like at the time I thought it was nuts for the Pistons to pass on Melo. Seems I was right on both counts. 

 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Or maybe I just never took Ford seriously. Just like at the time I thought it was nuts for the Pistons to pass on Melo. Seems I was right on both counts. 

K, point is you're still just remembering things wrong.  I mean, maybe you remember you thought Melo should go over LeBron, or even that there was a strong debate between LeBron and Melo, but to suggest that opinion was widespread is simply creating a false narrative.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, DMC said:

K, point is you're still just remembering things wrong.  I mean, maybe you remember you thought Melo should go over LeBron, or even that there was a strong debate between LeBron and Melo, but to suggest that opinion was widespread is simply creating a false narrative.

I never thought Melo should go over LeBron. I just said there were credible sports writers who thought so and/or made the argument for it and that the arguments for it at the time were reasonable, unlike the ones for Darko. History proved that to be right, except Wade should have gone second in that draft.


Knicks need to be worried. The Hawks look like the more talented team and their record before and after firing Pierce is pretty remarkable (14-20 and 28-11).

[KingintheNorth4]

Trae Young has range.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

I just said there were credible sports writers who thought so

You were saying there was a serious debate and I'm saying there wasn't.  LeBron was always the prohibitive/consensus favorite for the entire year leading up - hell, longer.

[Argonath Diver]

I'd love, love, love to have Derrick Rose to be a playoff hero again (with Taj as his wingman, hell yeah), but the Knicks just look like a completely inferior team. I have no idea why Randle is playing such an atrocious game, even worse than the previous. Dude has an incredibly loud crowd ready to chant MVP and is making bad play after bad play. Sure, Atlanta is targeting him as the focal point, but he's screwing up basic stuff all over the place. 

If Bogdanovich keeps being such a great Robin to Young, who is gleefully embracing his heel turn and absolutely killing it, the Hawks will sweep this series.

Donovan Mitchell back tonight. I think the Jazz might win by 20. All three games being lame? Last night had two awesome games simultaneously! Shit!

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, DMC said:

You were saying there was a serious debate and I'm saying there wasn't.  LeBron was always the prohibitive/consensus favorite for the entire year leading up - hell, longer.

"Serious" in the context of sports shows' A bloc debates in the lead up to the lottery (after which they ended because Cleveland wasn't passing over its hometown hero). And yes, LeBron was the clear favorite over a year out, but they were both the best players in their respective classes, looked pretty even the time they played each other in HS and Melo went on to win the NCAA Championship. That closed the gap. 

There's some funny reverse parallels from them being taken one and three and Edwards and Ball going the same. All four have good size for their positions, so setting that aside, LeBron was the explosive athlete with great handles and passing skills that went first while Melo was the less athletic, very polished scorer. Edwards is the explosive athlete with great scoring abilities while Ball is the less athletic player with incredibly polished passing skills. 

ETA: Shit, they even had a big who could supposedly shoot threes drafted between them and he's not started too well.