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Which contender would you support in the Dance? Aegon or Rhaenyra? Black or Green? Personally, I support Rhaenyra for the reasons of:

1. She has the better claim, with Targaryen blood on both sides

2. Viserys I declared her as his heir

3. Aegon is a hot tempered, fat little fool. He's a drunkard, a glutton and he cheats on his wife, big time. He's also a complete and utter idiot

 

What do you guys think? Black or Green? 

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16 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Which contender would you support in the Dance? Aegon or Rhaenyra? Black or Green? Personally, I support Rhaenyra for the reasons of:

1. She has the better claim, with Targaryen blood on both sides

2. Viserys I declared her as his heir

3. Aegon is a hot tempered, f NJat little fool. He's a drunkard, a glutton and he cheats on his wife, big time. He's also a complete and utter idiot

 

What do you guys think? Black or Green? 

1. Rhaenyra is one quarter Arryn, and Hightower are more noble than that house and present better majority of Westeros population - Reach, along with connections with Faith and Citadel.

2. Viserys I was declared by heir through all Lords in Westeros gathering and choosing him over Rhaenys  - he also chose her so his brother wouldn't get the throne - yet when they married 10 years before the war - whole changing of heir became absurd.

3. You know you are describing his half sister too?  Hot tempered, fat, fool, glutton, cheating on her husband, during her reign all dragons and some of her hostages died - biggest failure in the Dance.

Though honestly I believe choice as always boils down to do you prefer more giant douche or turd sandwich. Both sides were horrible.

 

Edited by Eltharion21
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To quote myself from my own topic on the matter:

Some of my favorite houses like the Lanisters, Baratheons and Hightowers ended up with the Greens but despite that I found myself favoring the Blacks to a significant extend. All in all the Blacks seem far more capable than the Greens ever were. Aegon II was a pretty awful war leader and while Rhaenya was hardly any better she seemed to be the weak link in a faction of capable people while an air of incompetence surrounds the Greens. At Aegon's side were Aemond and Cole who felt it was a good idea to self destruct in the Riverlands and give the Blacks a chance to take the capitol, Cole had a pretty clever plot to kill Rhaenys but seemed unable or unwilling to correct the mistakes of either Aemond or Aemon. Otto hightower was pretty clever by enlisting the Triarchy, but somehow overlooked that his rival Daemon was the one who founded the Goldcloaks despite having been Daemon's rival for decades. Lord Lannister died pretty early in the war and for all his bluster Borros Baratheon got destroyed by ''boys and woman'' when he finally got around to fighting the Blacks. Prince Daeron seemed to be the only one who didn't blunder throughout the war but since he was just a kid he never rose far enough on the political ladder for the Greens to benefit from his skills. 

To contrast the mediocrity of the Greens the Blacks had some of the most capable commanders of the era like Corlys and Daemon while also earning the loyalty of very talented new blood like prince Jace, Benjicot, Alyn and Cregan Stark. Rhaenya, in all her genius eventually drove off Corlys and Daemon but she failed her faction rather than her faction collectively failing her like with the Greens. 

Generally the Black commanders speak more to the imagination. The have a rogue, dragon riding Targaryen pirate prince, an elderly ''sea serpent'' who traveled the world, Benjicot the capable kid general or a future legend like Alyn. In contrast the Green have a big brat riding a huge dragon, an incompetent king, a competent pencil pushing Hand that got fired, and the grand genius that was Unwin Peak. 

On the question of legitimacy the Blacks have a pretty easy win since their opponents blatantly disregarding the decree of the late king and killing the one who disagreed wasn't particularly legitimate of them.  

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1 minute ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'd pull a Tywin and stay on the sidelines until a clear winner emerges and jump in then. So guess that means Aegon.

Aegon managed to win so clearly that his own side murdered him to prevent the victorious Black army from killing them all when they inevitably took Kings Landing. 

Aegon won in the sense that he outlasted his rival and historians refer to her as a usurper, but militarily speaking the Greens lost the war. Even with the Death of their queen the Blacks kept fighting and were ultimately victorious. So while Aegon might won against Rhaenyra on a personal level on the whole his side lost the war and thus Aegon died not long after Rhaenyra.

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18 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Which contender would you support in the Dance? Aegon or Rhaenyra? Black or Green? Personally, I support Rhaenyra for the reasons of:

1. She has the better claim, with Targaryen blood on both sides

2. Viserys I declared her as his heir

3. Aegon is a hot tempered, fat little fool. He's a drunkard, a glutton and he cheats on his wife, big time. He's also a complete and utter idiot

 

What do you guys think? Black or Green? 

Isn't it more of a choice between daemon and otto? Because they were the ones that were really in charge in the beguining of the war. And between the 2 daemon is definetly the most inspiring and more balanced (capable of good strategies and cruelty). 

And the blacks allies and rhaenyra's heirs are just better than the greens. The black's big problem is precisely rhaenyra that seems very incompetent.

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2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'd pull a Tywin and stay on the sidelines until a clear winner emerges and jump in then. So guess that means Aegon.

Careful, or you might become known as the Late Lord Lannister.

 

2 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

To contrast the mediocrity of the Greens the Blacks had some of the most capable commanders of the era like Corlys and Daemon while also earning the loyalty of very talented new blood like prince Jace, Benjicot, Alyn and Cregan Stark. Rhaenya, in all her genius eventually drove off Corlys and Daemon but she failed her faction rather than her faction collectively failing her like with the Greens. 

Gotta admit thats a pretty damn good lineup. 

 

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2 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Aegon managed to win so clearly that his own side murdered him to prevent the victorious Black army from killing them all when they inevitably took Kings Landing. 

Aegon won in the sense that he outlasted his rival and historians refer to her as a usurper, but militarily speaking the Greens lost the war. Even with the Death of their queen the Blacks kept fighting and were ultimately victorious. So while Aegon might won against Rhaenyra on a personal level on the whole his side lost the war and thus Aegon died not long after Rhaenyra.

King Aegon III won the Dance of the Dragons, not Aegon II. Both militarily and dynastically. The crucial thing in the succession is whether historians view Rhaenyra as queen or not, but whose bloodline continued the royal branch of House Targaryen ... and that was Rhaenyra's bloodline, not Aegon II's or Alicent's.

2 hours ago, divica said:

And the blacks allies and rhaenyra's heirs are just better than the greens. The black's big problem is precisely rhaenyra that seems very incompetent.

Rhaenyra made one or two crucial mistakes, but in most of those cases she followed (the majority of) her advisers. She rarely made solitary decisions on a whim. And it was Rhaenyra herself who conquered KL and deposed Aegon II, nobody else. Her determination pushed that through after the Battle of the Gullet and the Battle of the Honeywine were lost by her side.

And Daemon never truly led the Black faction - he spent most of the war at Harrenhal or at Maidenpool with Nettles.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra made one or two crucial mistakes, but in most of those cases she followed (the majority of) her advisers. She rarely made solitary decisions on a whim. And it was Rhaenyra herself who conquered KL and deposed Aegon II, nobody else. Her determination pushed that through after the Battle of the Gullet and the Battle of the Honeywine were lost by her side.

And Daemon never truly led the Black faction - he spent most of the war at Harrenhal or at Maidenpool with Nettles.

That doesn't seem remotely acurate. After all daemon led the fight in the riverlands and lured cole and aemond to harrenhall so that he could fly to KL unoposed. In adition, it was daemon that had the contacts in KL that allowed the blacks to conquer it. 

Rhaenyra at most was responsable to send her sons to the lords of the realm in order to negotiate their support, but it is undeniable that daemon was responsable for the war effort at the start. I have no idea where you even came up with rhaenyra doing much until she conquered KL...

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1 hour ago, divica said:

That doesn't seem remotely acurate. After all daemon led the fight in the riverlands and lured cole and aemond to harrenhall so that he could fly to KL unoposed. In adition, it was daemon that had the contacts in KL that allowed the blacks to conquer it. 

KL was taken by Rhaenyra's troops. Of course, Daemon's standing with the City Watch helped in causing them to turn ... but they would have turned in any case in that scenario considering half a dozen dragons were circling over the city. Their choice was to turn/yield or burn.

Daemon took Harrenhal earlier but his original plan was to cause Aegon II to do something stupid ... and that he didn't do. Taking KL was a plan Jace came up with with the dragonseeds idea - and then it was pushed through by Rhaenyra who personally led the entire enterprise after the death of her eldest son in the Gullet.

1 hour ago, divica said:

Rhaenyra at most was responsable to send her sons to the lords of the realm in order to negotiate their support, but it is undeniable that daemon was responsable for the war effort at the start. I have no idea where you even came up with rhaenyra doing much until she conquered KL...

I didn't say she did much, I said Daemon didn't really lead the Blacks because he wasn't there most of the time. Most Blacks during the Dance didn't lead their armies in connection with Daemon - they raised their armies in Rhaenyra's name, either independently (the Reach lords) or in connection with her sons (Vale/Northmen) or in direct connection with her (Narrow Sea levies, second wave of Vale men and Northmen).

Daemon did marshal the original Black army at Harrenhal, that is correct, but that was just one army and he eventually left them to their own devices when he flew to KL.

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It would depend upon how I'd fared under Viserys; while Rhaenyra wasn't a carbon copy of her father, she was exposed to his way of ruling the Seven Kingdoms- probably more so than Aegon, since she was Viserys' chosen heir. So if I'd been having a ball during his reign, I'd support the blacks. But since this is entirely hypothetical (Westeros isn't real. Shocker, I know), I can't give a cocksure answer.

 

In conclusion, I have not come to a conclusion.

 

Edited by The Varysneaky Spider
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On 5/15/2021 at 12:50 PM, Lord Varys said:

And Daemon never truly led the Black faction - he spent most of the war at Harrenhal or at Maidenpool with Nettles.

He helped take KL, his troops screwed up the Kingmaker.....

On 5/15/2021 at 3:29 AM, Eltharion21 said:

3. You know you are describing his half sister too?  Hot tempered, fat, fool, glutton, cheating on her husband, during her reign all dragons and some of her hostages died - biggest failure in the Dance.

 

Because Rhaenyra was definitely going to cut off Alicent and Helaena's ears. She at least didn't kill two hostages. One died anyway of apparent suicide, the other survived past the war. Whereas Aegon was going to slice of Younger Aegon's body parts one by one, was going to behead Lady Baela multiple times..... 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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48 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Because Rhaenyra was definitely going to cut off Alicent and Helaena's ears. She at least didn't kill two hostages. One died anyway of apparent suicide, the other survived past the war. Whereas Aegon was going to slice of Younger Aegon's body parts one by one, was going to behead Lady Baela multiple times..... 

Catspaws of her husband did cut the head of the Haelaena's son, killed innocent bedmaid, threaten to rape her daughter and kill all of them if she didn't choose which child should die- Rhaenyra didn't punish those responsible for that vilest of crimes - but promoted them - Daemon and Mysaria both.

Rhaenyra formed ominously sounding knight-inquisitors to hunt two surviving Aegon II's children and placed bounty on their heads - which likely created atmosphere that led to death of Maelor - his head and body of Ser Rickard Thorne were delivered to her.

While Hightower army was approaching the King's Landing, with Daeron and betrayers - it is possible that she ordered Luthor Largent to get rid of  Haelena Targaryen - as she was major threat as Viserys daughter too, dragonrider and woman who could still bear children.

Even if not guilty of direct order which I doubt, she failed to care better about her distraught hostage, half sister and to stop Mysaria from tormenting her.

Alicent Hightower herself had no legitimacy, as her only tie to the throne was through children by Viserys who were all targeted to be murdered.  She wasn't a threat and could be left alive and tormented with death of all her children - as was likely Rhaenyra's delight.

Even Queen Jaehaera who suspiciously died and got replaced by Velaryon ward- making that house profit most from her death, yet that happened few years after the conflict,

Aegon II wanted to execute Baela as she tried to kill him and  his glorious dragon Sunfyre eventually died of wounds from that attack, though it killed Moondancer, but still was convinced to let her live as she was useful alive - showing to be more reasonable than his half-sister.

Aegon III was a hostage, army of the Blacks was approaching intent on murdering him and his family, it is standard policy to use threat toward hostages as deterrent to opponents - Eddard had Theon Greyjoy, Dany takes Mereen children and Jon Snow takes wildling children as hostages.

Fire & Blood certainly shows Black side in more favorable light as they were winners of the war, though pyrrhic and written published material about ancestors of ruling Targaryens would try to obscure their worst transgressions.

We see Baelor the Blessed - son of Aegon III censure the books that present his family negatively, we see Aerion Brightflame goes bonkers on the puppet show where dragon is slain...

For example Daemon is never called kinslayer in the book while Aemond and Aegon II were both called such. We have absolutely no mention of appearance of Ser Harwin Strong though he was Rhaenyra's sworn shield and present in major tourneys and events.

 

Edited by Eltharion21
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4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Even Queen Jaehaera who suspiciously died and got replaced by Velaryon ward- making that house profit most from her death, yet that happened few years after the conflict,

 

Ah, yes. Ignore Unwin Peake and all the halfway evidence that points to him. 

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

While Hightower army was approaching the King's Landing, with Daeron and betrayers - it is possible that she ordered Luthor Largent to get rid of  Haelena Targaryen - as she was major threat as Viserys daughter too, dragonrider and woman who could still bear children.

 

Luthor Largent was eating with 300 gold cloaks when Helaena died. Did you not read that part of FaB? 

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Catspaws of her husband did cut the head of the Haelaena's son, killed innocent bedmaid, threaten to rape her daughter and kill all of them if she didn't choose which child should die- Rhaenyra didn't punish those responsible for that vilest of crimes - but promoted them - Daemon and Mysaria both.

 

You EXPECT Rhaenyra to punish her uncle and husband? Sweet Jesus. Mysaria, Daemon would've probably complained and Mysaria is useful. 

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Even if not guilty of direct order which I doubt, she failed to care better about her distraught hostage, half sister and to stop Mysaria from tormenting her.

 

Mysaria is not confirmed to have done that. Please confine yourself to the FACTS. Though you seem to like ignoring parts or making stuff up. 

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

We see Baelor the Blessed - son of Aegon III censure the books that present his family negatively, we see Aerion Brightflame goes bonkers on the puppet show where dragon is slain...

 

Oh God. Baelor was a ****ing religious fanatic, that's why he burned those books. Did you NOT read the books, or at least the wiki?

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20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Ah, yes. Ignore Unwin Peake and all the halfway evidence that points to him. 

Unwin Peake is the simplest choice I guess, but under scrutiny it doesn't make much sense.

Unwin had no support for his proposal to marry Aegon III to his daughter, as he belonged to the Greens - who lost the war and was from minor house - other regents were explicit about it.

He as Hand of the King had control of the court and King's Landing for months before the death of Queen Jaehaera, but he only brought his daughter to the court after the death of child - indicating that he wanted to exploit her death - quite transparently , yet he didn't expect it.

In a previous chapter we hear of Mushroom the rumors of Knight from House Harte trying to engage services of the Faceless men in Braavos.

There is also suspicious death of Dalton Greyjoy- which disintegrated Ironborn fleet and allowed Velaryon's to save their remaining naval strength.

Ultimately it is ward from House Harte that becomes Aegon III's queen - likely through influence his half-sisters had over him. 

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Luthor Largent was eating with 300 gold cloaks when Helaena died. Did you not read that part of FaB? 

Yes I have read it meticulously I might add, unlike you or so many others.

This is text from F&B written by Gyldane - who writes that there are four or more versions present:

Suicide due to being pregnant by being raped in brothel - on order of Rhaenyra - by Mushroom.

Suicide when Mysaria tormented her with tale of how Maelor her youngest son died  - by Eustace.

Suicide after seeing deaths of Ser Horon and Ser Denys from House Velaryon - by Munkun which is nonsense as executions were daily during Rhaenyra's short reign.

Murder by Luthor Largent as Greens were approaching as rumor was that sparked King's Landing revolt - which Gyldane disapproves.

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After half a year of captivity, why should Aegon’s queen choose this night to end her life? Mushroom asserts that Helaena was with child after her days and nights of being sold for a common whore, but this explanation is only as creditable as his tale of the Brothel Queens, which is to say, not creditable at all. Grand Maester Munkun believes the horror of seeing Ser Thoron and Ser Denys die drove her to the act, but if the young queen knew the two men it could only have been as gaolers, and there is no evidence that she was a witness to their hanging. Septon Eustace suggests that Lady Mysaria, the White Worm, chose this night to tell Helaena of the death of her son Maelor, and the grisly manner of his passing, though what motive she would have had for doing so, beyond simple malice, is hard to fathom.

Maesters may argue about the truth of such assertions…but on that fateful night, a darker tale was being told in the streets and alleys of King’s Landing, in inns and brothels and pot shops, even holy septs. Queen Helaena had been murdered, the whispers went, as her sons had been before her. Prince Daeron and his dragons would soon be at the gates, and with them the end of Rhaenyra’s reign. The old queen was determined that her young half-sister should not live to revel in her downfall, so she had sent Ser Luthor Largent to seize Helaena with his huge rough hands and fling her from the window onto the spikes below.

Whence came this poisonous calumny, one might ask (for a calumny it most certainly is)? Grand Maester Munkun places it at the door of the Shepherd, for thousands heard him decry both crime and queen. But did he originate the lie, or was he merely giving echo to words heard from other lips? The latter, Mushroom would have us believe. A slander so vile could only have been the work of Larys Strong, the dwarf asserts…for the Clubfoot had never left King’s Landing (as would soon be revealed), but only slipped into its shadows, from whence he continued to plot and whisper.

Could Helaena’s death have been murder? Possibly…but it seems unlikely Queen Rhaenyra was behind it. Helaena Targaryen was a broken creature who posed no threat to Her Grace. Nor do our sources speak of any special enmity between them. If Rhaenyra were intent on murder, surely it would have been the Dowager Queen Alicent flung down onto the spikes. Moreover, at the time of Queen Helaena’s death, we have abundant proof that Ser Luthor Largent, the purported killer, was eating with three hundred of his gold cloaks at the barracks by the Gate of the Gods.

What is to stop Luthor to send either of his gold cloaks to kill her themselves - Queen Helaena 

Out of all those versions, neither which paints Rhaenyra in favorable light I might add- one that makes most sense is murder - as we see with Russian, French revolution during civil war when other side is getting close to rescuing and rallying figureheads - they were eliminated.

Helaena was certainly threat to Rhaenyra -  she was Viserys daughter, still able to bear children and dragonrider as well, about being broken - well here is what book says about broken:

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“The stone is strong. Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.”

 

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

You EXPECT Rhaenyra to punish her uncle and husband? Sweet Jesus. Mysaria, Daemon would've probably complained and Mysaria is useful. 

She punished Corlys Velaryon and Addam the LOYAL for doing right thing, might be better if she dealt with cause of greatest evil act there and then, but of course she didn't becoming responsible and deserving her own gruesome death in turn.

Mysaria was useful, and you accuse me for not reading novel ?!?

Lady Misery was useful for Rhaenyra's downfall more likely - turning her against loyal bastards and House Velaryon, here is what White Worm  represent from one of earlier Martin's works:

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For ages past remembering, the House of the Worm had been lost in decay, and that was as it should be, for decay is but one name of the White Worm himself.

 

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Mysaria is not confirmed to have done that. Please confine yourself to the FACTS. Though you seem to like ignoring parts or making stuff up. 

It is one of the versions of event presented in the novel, or  are things  facts - as long as you agree with them? Out of all sources Mushroom and Eustace were only present in King's Landing when death happened and had chance to meet Mysaria- while Gyldane lives much later and Munkun only arrives after the end of war.

21 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Oh God. Baelor was a ****ing religious fanatic, that's why he burned those books. Did you NOT read the books, or at least the wiki?

Comprehensively reading the novel and having a common sense beats reading the wiki - which anyone could edit.

 Targaryens as invaders had to stabilize realm they had to rule by using good public relations , even while they had dragons, look at Maegor and wars with faith due polygamy, Jaehaerys I using doctrine of exceptionalism to pacify the realm in regard of incestuous marriage.  

It is likely that later Kings also had to watch on their public image, especially since they lost dragons - so being called brood of kinslayers or worse  would be certainly censured -  mostly using Master of Whisperers - like Bloodraven or writters who openly publish their books would have sort of self censure fearing they would bring ire of dragonspawn. Baelor burned different books for various reasons- Mushroom doesn't contain sorcery like that of Septon Barth but rather salacious record of his family's actions - something he tried to change.

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Whereas Septon Eustace records the secrets of bedchamber and brothel in hushed, condemnatory tones, Mushroom delights in the same, and his Testimony consists of little but ribald tales and gossip, piling stabbings, poisonings, betrayals, seductions, and debaucheries one atop the other. How much of this can be believed is a question the honest historian cannot hope to answer, but it is worth noting that King Baelor the Blessed decreed that every copy of Mushroom’s chronicle should be burned. Fortunately for us, a few escaped his fires.

 

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On 5/14/2021 at 7:44 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Which contender would you support in the Dance? Aegon or Rhaenyra? Black or Green? Personally, I support Rhaenyra for the reasons of:

1. She has the better claim, with Targaryen blood on both sides

2. Viserys I declared her as his heir

3. Aegon is a hot tempered, fat little fool. He's a drunkard, a glutton and he cheats on his wife, big time. He's also a complete and utter idiot

 

What do you guys think? Black or Green? 

The Greens.

Aegon was the rightful heir by the laws of the Andals and the First Men, as well as the previous conventions of the Targaryen dynasty.

Rhaenyra's only claim as heir was basically an assertion of absolutism (i.e the King can do whatever he likes, whenever he likes with the laws) which not only has the potential for alienating all the bannermen but for introducing constant crises of succession. Like just imagine the relentless bloodshed we'd get if some crazy bastard like Aerys could just go around declaring a new heir every other Thusday.

Further, in terms of the actual quality of each contender as a monarch Aegon is better. He actually reminds me of Robert, just being some disinterested loser that is willing to keep his hands off and let people that are better at running things get their hands dirty. Rhaenyra is basically Cersei - a promiscuous and vengeful idiot who spawned a bunch of bastards and tried to seat said bastards on the Iron Throne while raging and going from scandal to scandal to scandal.

A weak King is better than a tyrant.

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On 5/15/2021 at 4:50 PM, Lord Varys said:

King Aegon III won the Dance of the Dragons, not Aegon II. Both militarily and dynastically. The crucial thing in the succession is whether historians view Rhaenyra as queen or not, but whose bloodline continued the royal branch of House Targaryen ... and that was Rhaenyra's bloodline, not Aegon II's or Alicent's.

Let's put it this way.

Imagine in some AU Dany invades Westeros to take back the Iron Throne for the Targs. For some reason or another she gets porked by Gendry at some point.

Eventually she wins a big battle and breaks the Baratheon loyalists. Pleased at this she goes to the Red Keep and gets assassinated there after ruling for a month.

Her son by Gendry then takes the Throne and rules as Martyn Baratheon.

Can anyone say she really won this just because her son sits the Throne? Her son might rule but the Targ dynasty has now died out and his claim is recognized on the basis of him being Robert's grandson while she's widely regarded as a crazed usurper.

Of course not. She lost the war, because wars are not solely about bloodlines. They're about politics and about ideals. She snatched defeat from the jaws of victory because even if she won in the field she lost her war aims.

Rhaenyra lost, because the ideal of a woman reigning over the kingdom was so thoroughly discredited that not only was her brother recognized as the legitimate heir but all female dynasts were placed behind all male dynasts.

Aegon III did take the throne, but he didn't do it as Rhaenyra's son. He did it as Daemon's. His relation to her was actually irrelevant, because only his paternal heritage was considered for the law of succession. His mother could have been some Frey for all she mattered to his ascension.

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1 hour ago, The Jingo said:

Rhaenyra lost, because the ideal of a woman reigning over the kingdom was so thoroughly discredited that not only was her brother recognized as the legitimate heir but all female dynasts were placed behind all male dynasts.

The Dance wasn't a war for the right of a woman to inherit. Rhaenyra didn't want to change the succession laws, nor were she or her advisers particularly progressive or feminist. Despite being a woman, she ruled against the succession of women in similar circumstances as she herself was in ... and actually paid the price for that when she had to flee KL.

And, no, it is a common misconception that the Dance had a lasting impact on the right of the kings to choose their heirs. Aerys I recognized another female heir in his niece Aelora despite the fact that he had a younger brother in Maekar and four healthy nephews. The idea that women should not sit the throne under any circumstances - nor men whose royal blood is inherited through the female line - goes back to the Great Council. But that didn't stop folks from thinking that perhaps Baelor's sister Daena should rule, that Aerys I named Aelora his Heir Apparent, that the claim of Vaella the Simple was discussed at the Great Council, that Viserys III acknowledged Daenerys as his Heir Apparent in exile, etc.

But as I said - as a dynastic war it was a total victory for the Black side. The Hightower-Targaryens were not just excluded from the succession they were all killed (and the last one seemed to have died at the command of a die-hard Green). The war wasn't fought 'for the rights of women to inherit' but between two branches of the royal house. And Rhaenyra's branch won. Her cause was not 'women should rule' but 'I/my blood should rule'. She died, but her sons survived and ruled after her. How little the question about women mattered can be seen how the Greens own arguments bite them in the ass when Aegon II's last remaining child is a girl ... and Aegon II and Alicent do not say Jaehaera cannot be the heir because she is a girl. They do not willingly turn to Aegon III and say he has to be the heir now because the Greens have run out of male Targaryens on their side. They have to be forced to consider this option ... and only do this tentatively with the intention of doing away with Aegon III as quickly as they can.

The reason why Aegon II is viewed as the king is because he killed and outlived Rhaenyra and he was the guy who was crowned first. It is the same with Maegor the Cruel and Aegon the Uncrowned.

Although technically it is silly to not count Rhaenyra as a monarch since she actually ruled for a good chunk of 130 AC while Aegon II was hiding under a rock. The idea that this guy was ruling anything in that time doesn't make much sense - and no historian would view things like that. It would be like saying that Viserys III was the king while Robert sat on the throne or that Renly or Stannis are the ones ruling the Seven Kingdom while Joffrey/Tommen sit the Iron Throne.

Even if either of them had eventually taken the throne ... it would be silly to pretend that their reign started on the day they crowned themselves when they could shape any policies whatsoever.

I expect this is the reason why George effectively abandonoed the idea that Rhaenyra was never a monarch - which was still in TPatQ - is that when he made the original Targaryen appendix in AGoT he didn't know yet that Rhaenyra would actually sit the Iron Throne (or be the chosen heir of her father, King Viserys). It is this kind of thing that makes Joff/Tommen the rightful kings whereas Stannis and Renly are just pretenders nobody is ever going to count in any official king list.

1 hour ago, The Jingo said:

Aegon III did take the throne, but he didn't do it as Rhaenyra's son. He did it as Daemon's. His relation to her was actually irrelevant, because only his paternal heritage was considered for the law of succession. His mother could have been some Frey for all she mattered to his ascension.

Of course Aegon III took the throne as Rhaenyra's son, just as Rhaenyra's followers continued to fight under her banner until the Greens were crushed on the Kingsroad. Aegon III even acknowledges that his mother ruled as queen when he dismisses Torrhen Manderly - he points out that he served her faithfully.

Aegon III's father never comes up in the entire succession thing. Thanks to Larys Strong's machinations Aegon III was also the acknowledged presumptive heir of Aegon II (although jointly with Princess Jaehaera) in addition to being the chosen pretender of the Blacks in the field - and it is this fact that makes it pretty much impossible for the few remaining Greens to contest the ascension of Aegon III (most of them turned Black in the end, anyway, and murdered Aegon II).

Aegon III's descent from Prince Daemon is never cited as a reason why he should rule ... nor does anybody support his claim and fight for him because he is his father's son. They all stick to him because he is Rhaenyra's heir.

This goes to the point that Aegon II insists that Aegon III die because '[his] sister's line must end'. He doesn't care about Daemon's bloodline at all.

People have been speculating that Aegon III might have ascended the throne as Daemon's son prior to the publication of FaB - but those ideas were firmly dismissed when the book came out.

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