Blacks or Greens?

[frenin]

On 5/15/2021 at 12:29 PM, Eltharion21 said:

Rhaenyra is one quarter Arryn, and Hightower are more noble than that house

No, they are not.

 

On 5/15/2021 at 12:29 PM, Eltharion21 said:

and present better majority of Westeros population - Reach, along with connections with Faith and Citadel.

When has that mattered?? By birth or by marriage she was far better connected anyway.

 

On 5/15/2021 at 12:29 PM, Eltharion21 said:

2. Viserys I was declared by heir through all Lords in Westeros gathering and choosing him over Rhaenys  - he also chose her so his brother wouldn't get the throne - yet when they married 10 years before the war - whole changing of heir became absurd.

Viserys didn't want any one but her succeeding her. Else he would have chosen one if his sons and be done with it. 

[Eltharion21]

8 hours ago, frenin said:

No, they are not.

The written material begs to differ:

Quote

Once and always a great realm, the Reach is many things to its inhabitants: the most populous, fertile, and powerful domain in the Seven Kingdoms, its wealth second only to the gold-rich west; a seat of learning; a center of music, culture, and all the arts, bright and dark; the breadbasket of Westeros; a nexus of trade; a home to great seafarers, wise and noble kings, dread sorcerers, and the most beautiful women in all Westeros. On a hill overlooking the Mander rises Highgarden, rightly hailed as the most beautiful castle in the realm. The Mander itself, which flows beneath its walls, is the longest and broadest river in the Seven Kingdoms. The great city of Oldtown is the equal of King's Landing in size, and it is superior in all other respects, being vastly older and more beautiful, with its cobbled streets, ornate guildhalls, stone houses, and three great monuments: the Starry Sept of the Faith, the Citadel of the Maesters, and the mighty Hightower, with its great beacon, the tallest tower in all the known world. Truly, the Reach is a land for superlatives.

The Hightowers of Oldtown were an ancient and noble family, of impeccable lineage; there could be no possible objection to the king’s choice of bride. 

Those who sat at the black council counted themselves loyalists, but knew full well that King Aegon II would name them traitors. Each had already received a summons from King’s Landing, demanding they present themselves at the Red Keep to swear oaths of loyalty to the new king. All their hosts combined could not match the power the Hightowers alone could field.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

When has that mattered?? By birth or by marriage she was far better connected anyway.

Always it mattered, as the song goes "Everything counts in large amounts". Population, resources, control over masses through religion, monopoly over education, communication and health - are all present in Reach, and especially in alliance with House Hightower- as somebody said to Daenerys:

"Man wants to be the king o' rabbits, he best wear a pair o' floppy ears." - that is what Aegon I had done when he accepted existing institutions in Westeros and built upon them.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Viserys didn't want any one but her succeeding her. Else he would have chosen one if his sons and be done with it. 

Viserys also did got cut on the throne when he ordered Velaryons who protested about Rhaenyra murdering Ser Vaemond and bastards taking their inheritance  to get their tongues cut. 

He almost died then and was afraid to sit the Throne until his death - which implies unfitness to rule.

What to do when King is unfit to rule?

Moreover all the lords in Westeros gathered and voted (no small feat) 20:1 in favor of Viserys, son of Baelon against Laenor through Rhaenys, daughter of Aemon- which would be great basis for stabile succession for some generations to come.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

The written material begs to differ:

I have yet to see where it says that Hightowers are of better lineage than the Arryns.

That's straight up false and easily counter intuitive, the Arryns have been Kings for thousands of years and they were Great Lords after that.

And they are talking rather specifically about the hosts the Narrow Sea lords, lords sworn to Rhaenrya, could muster.

Do you really believe that the Arryns cannot muster more swords than the Hightowers??

 

 

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Always it mattered, as the song goes "Everything counts in large amounts". Population, resources, control over masses through religion, monopoly over education, communication and health - are all present in Reach, and especially in alliance with House Hightower- as somebody said to Daenerys:

"Man wants to be the king o' rabbits, he best wear a pair o' floppy ears." - that is what Aegon I had done when he accepted existing institutions in Westeros and built upon them

Those two have nothing to do with one another. You're just throwing things in the pot and see what it comes of it.

Aegon and Aerys had the support of Reach and the Hightowers. That did not save them.

 

 

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Viserys also did got cut on the throne when he ordered Velaryons who protested about Rhaenyra murdering Ser Vaemond and bastards taking their inheritance  to get their tongues cut. 

He almost died then and was afraid to sit the Throne until his death - which implies unfitness to rule.

It implies it to you. It's inmaterial to most.

 

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Moreover all the lords in Westeros gathered and voted (no small feat) 20:1 in favor of Viserys, son of Baelon against Laenor through Rhaenys, daughter of Aemon- which would be great basis for stabile succession for some generations to come.

Irrelevant, they were voting for a King, they were not voting for how to amend a succession law. And not all of them voted Viserys because his Targ parent had a dick, so lumping them together it's just ludicrous.

[Jaenara Belarys]

19 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Aegon was the rightful heir by the laws of the Andals and the First Men, as well as the previous conventions of the Targaryen dynasty.

 

Aegon wasn't the named heir. In all other cases, I would say that the in world laws apply. But since Rhaenyra was named as the heir, she should be the queen. 

19 hours ago, The Jingo said:

A weak King is better than a tyrant.

So you'd rather have Aenys' weakness?

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

He almost died then and was afraid to sit the Throne until his death - which implies unfitness to rule.

 

The man could've died because of that stupid sword chair. I don't blame him for being scared of it. And he was probably too weak to climb it anyway. 

 

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

The written material begs to differ

The Arryns were kings for thousands of years, and have one of the oldest and purest lines of nobility. Furthermore, they rule the entire Vale, not one city and some lands out amongst there. So, you are wrong.

[Daemon of the Blacks]

Quote

 

Further, in terms of the actual quality of each contender as a monarch Aegon is better. He actually reminds me of Robert, just being some disinterested loser that is willing to keep his hands off and let people that are better at running things get their hands dirty. Rhaenyra is basically Cersei - a promiscuous and vengeful idiot who spawned a bunch of bastards and tried to seat said bastards on the Iron Throne while raging and going from scandal to scandal to scandal.

A weak King is better than a tyrant.

 

There's more Joffrey than Robert in Aegon. There's no shortage of cruel acts and tyrannical behavior from Aegon II.  Aegon isn't just lazy and disinterested but actively malicious in a lot of what he says and does. After briefly under the assumption he won the war Aegon also proved himself tyrannical and unwilling to listen to anyone which is how he died. 

At the end Rhaenyra was absolutely a tyrant and her psyche had fractured to a dangerous degree. But in her case she had to be broken by many tragedies to reach that point while Aegon was always a nasty piece of work. 

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

There's more Joffrey than Robert in Aegon. There's no shortage of cruel acts and tyrannical behavior from Aegon II.  Aegon isn't just lazy and disinterested but actively malicious in a lot of what he says and does. After briefly under the assumption he won the war Aegon also proved himself tyrannical and unwilling to listen to anyone which is how he died. 

Aegon II is pretty much the worst Targaryen king after Aegon IV - who as per George's fiat is the worst king. Even Aerys II is light years better than Aegon II.

And Aegon himself is the biggest liability in his own government - he replaces Otto with Cole, who nearly gets him killed, creating a power vacuum that's eventually filled by the moron Aemond. Something that would have never happened if Otto had continued as Hand.

Most successful inititatives in the war on the Green side also go back to Otto, namely the Triarchy attacking the Velaryon fleet and Lord Ormund Hightower pacifying the Reach in the name of Aegon II. Criston Cole and Aemond's initiatives, on the other hand, were petty and ineffective and did nothing to get even remotely close to a victory in the war.

8 minutes ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

At the end Rhaenyra was absolutely a tyrant and her psyche had fractured to a dangerous degree. But in her case she had to be broken by many tragedies to reach that point while Aegon was always a nasty piece of work. 

Rhaenyra isn't really broken or anything nor particularly tyrannical. She just made a couple of decisions that made things worse - making Bartimos Celtigar Master of Coin, following her advisers on the issue of the bastard dragonriders, etc.

But we don't see mass executions under Rhaenyra's reign like we get with Aegon II using people as light posts. Rhaenyra could have been more successful, one imagines, if she had been more tyrannical - executing Alicent and Helaena on the spot, say, or using her advantage in dragons to burn Storm's End early in the war could have send the loud and clear message of the cost of standing with the usurper Aegon ... or to be tangentially involved in the murder of one of her sons.

The problem is that she is often far too soft when decisive action would have been needed - like during the riots or when the rewards of the dragonseeds are discussed.

And if you look at the details it is outstanding how effectively all questionable things the Blacks do are reactions to transgressions/atrocities committed by the Greens. The Greens first arrest and execute loyalists of the other side, the Greens first target children on the other side, the Greens first provoke dragonriders fighting each other, etc.

[Eltharion21]

3 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

There's more Joffrey than Robert in Aegon. There's no shortage of cruel acts and tyrannical behavior from Aegon II.  Aegon isn't just lazy and disinterested but actively malicious in a lot of what he says and does. After briefly under the assumption he won the war Aegon also proved himself tyrannical and unwilling to listen to anyone which is how he died. 

At the end Rhaenyra was absolutely a tyrant and her psyche had fractured to a dangerous degree. But in her case she had to be broken by many tragedies to reach that point while Aegon was always a nasty piece of work. 

That says guy who takes profile picture of a pedo Daemon who promoted buying the maidenhood of girls from poor families - and getting them in prostitution, or the one who ordered murder of his brother's grandson - just a child in front of his siblings and mother - just to send a message. I daresay not the marks of a very good judge of character.

Rhaenyra was always a tyrant - she wanted to "question sharply" - aka torture Aemond when he was only 10 years old and just lost his eye by one of her sons. She ordered Ser Vaemond Velaryon who rightfully claimed her children were bastards to be beheaded by her husband and his body fed to her lazy dragon Syrax. That all happened before even one of her children died - and she had chance to stop the war three times - with Orwyle's peace offering, when Alicent offered her Great Council and when Corlys offered her to send pardons to all - she might had built upon either or those and negotiated but she chose to be stubborn and vengeful.

Aegon II story reminds much more of Theon Greyjoy ( both being lecherous and unable through their injuries to continue, despicable in ruling decisions - Theon executing people in Winterfell/Aegon ordering some of the executions, they both have pivotal moment - when they are being offered to accept the Black from Seasnake or Maester Luwin during siege - which both refuse). His family tragedy and deaths are actually more compelling downfall, with his horrible injuries, drinking and milk of poppy addiction - and overcoming it to get his vengeance over his half-sister.

 

[Lord Varys]

The Arryns are arguably one of the noblest bloodlines in Westeros - which is likely part of the reason why three Arryns were allowed to intermarry with the blood of the dragon. The appendix of AGoT points out that they are among the oldest and purest bloodlines of Andal nobility.

If you try to rank the royal bloodlines of the old Seven Kingdoms then the Lannisters and Arryns would be second and third, in my opinion, with the Gardeners being the most noble bloodline, with the criteria being age, political power, wealth, and standing with their subjects.

The Hightowers are a very prestigious bloodline, too, but the fact that they lost their crowns millennia ago puts them on a different level.

And Alicent Hightower's prestige compared to Aemma Arryn's is laughable. Aemma Arryn is royalty herself, a granddaughter of the Old King, whereas Alicent Hightower is, in the end, just the daughter of a landless knight. Ser Otto has high office when his daughter catches the king's eye, but he isn't even a lord. Their Hightower background makes it acceptable that the king takes Alicent as a second wife - if Otto had been a landless knight from another house this match may have been viewed very differently. And even the Handship is something Viserys I gave to Otto. In a sense, he is truly just 'the servant' Aerys II wanted Tywin to be when he refused to marry Rhaegar to Cersei. Tywin was a great and powerful lord in his own right and the Hand of the King ... but Otto Hightower was just a knight raised to high office by the magnanimity of kings.

[Eltharion21]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Arryns are arguably one of the noblest bloodlines in Westeros - which is likely part of the reason why three Arryns were allowed to intermarry with the blood of the dragon. The appendix of AGoT points out that they are among the oldest and purest bloodlines of Andal nobility.

If you try to rank the royal bloodlines of the old Seven Kingdoms then the Lannisters and Arryns would be second and third, in my opinion, with the Gardeners being the most noble bloodline, with the criteria being age, political power, wealth, and standing with their subjects.

The Hightowers are a very prestigious bloodline, too, but the fact that they lost their crowns millennia ago puts them on a different level.

And Alicent Hightower's prestige compared to Aemma Arryn's is laughable. Aemma Arryn is royalty herself, a granddaughter of the Old King, whereas Alicent Hightower is, in the end, just the daughter of a landless knight. Ser Otto has high office when his daughter catches the king's eye, but he isn't even a lord. Their Hightower background makes it acceptable that the king takes Alicent as a second wife - if Otto had been a landless knight from another house this match may have been viewed very differently. And even the Handship is something Viserys I gave to Otto. In a sense, he is truly just 'the servant' Aerys II wanted Tywin to be when he refused to marry Rhaegar to Cersei. Tywin was a great and powerful lord in his own right and the Hand of the King ... but Otto Hightower was just a knight raised to high office by the magnanimity of kings.

Ser Otto Hightower was raised by magnanimity of kings? More likely his own skill as an administrator.

Hightowers have much more influential legacy, than many petty kings of Westeros- how many of there were anyway?

 Storm King, King of the Iron Islands, Griffon King, Gardner King, King of the Rock, King of the Rivers and Hill, King of Winter, King of the Arbor, King of the High Tower, Darklyn King, Vulture King, Barrow King, King of the Vale and Mountain, Red King, Marsh King,  King of the Trident ,  King of the Fingers, Bronze King, King of Stone and Sky, King of the Torrentine, High King of Dorne, King of the Brimstone, King of Three Sisters, Hooded King...

Hell even Ser Utherr Sheet might have some  king's blood.

Well Alicent did show quite able to birth Targaryen looking children at least - who were dragonriders- if Vhagar, Dreamfire, Sunfyre and Tessarion consider them worthy, I see not how plump spider could object.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Ser Otto Hightower was raised by magnanimity of kings? More likely his own skill as an administrator.

He was raised to high office by Jaehaerys I and King Viserys decided to keep him. There is no indication that Otto did anything of substance that caused Jaehaerys I to raise him up. It could have just been the Hightower name and connections - say, Otto knew Archmaester Vaegon and he suggested him as the new Hand when he talked to his father after Baelon's death.

This isn't confirmed, of course, but we cannot actually say that Otto's skills were the reason why he was chosen to be Hand.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Hightowers have much more influential legacy, than many petty kings of Westeros- how many of there were anyway?

The Hightowers are definitely among the most prestigious noble families of Westeros. But they are not nobler or more prestigious than the Arryns. I'd even say that prestige-wise all the former royal houses of the Seven Kingdoms do outrank or outshine the Hightowers simply because of the prestige that comes from being a (former) sovereign royal house ruling your own pretty large kingdom instead of being sworn to another house for millennia.

That said, within the feudal framework the Hightowers definitely are the most prestigious house sworn to another. And I'd even say that they were the most prestigious house in the Reach in the first century after the Conquest up until the Dance because the Tyrells couldn't really fill the large shoes of the Gardeners in those days. But that changed eventually.

The Hightowers are not more prestigious than the Arryns and, more specifically, Aemma Arryn who was a much more suitable and nobler a bride for a king than Alicent Hightower could hope to be - because Alicent had no Targaryen background and because Aemma was the daughter of a great lord whose ancestors were still wearing crowns a century ago while Alicent wasn't even the daughter of a Lord of Oldtown but of a younger son of that house.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Well Alicent did show quite able to birth Targaryen looking children at least - who were dragonriders- if Vhagar, Dreamfire, Sunfyre and Tessarion consider them worthy, I see not how plump spider could object.

We actually do not have canonical descriptions of any of Alicent's children aside from Aegon II (and those are semicanonical from the Amok portrait). We don't how they looked, I guess chances are pretty good that most of them were fair-haired, but some could certainly have looked as Valyrian as Alysanne or Alyssa Targaryen. Even if we did know how they looked - 'being able to bear children who look Valyrian' has no bearing on the nobility of your birth or the standing you, your father, and your family have in comparison to other houses.

Also, the high birth of Alicent's children is completely dependent on King Viserys I Targaryen being their father - if we go by the birth of their mother they would be the children of the daughter of a landless knight.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Hightowers have much more influential legacy, than many petty kings of Westeros- how many of there were anyway?

Are you really saying that the Arryns have much more influential legacy than the Starks, Durrandons, Gardeners, Lannisters et co??

And you call those petty kings?? 

[Eltharion21]

On 5/21/2021 at 9:41 PM, frenin said:

Are you really saying that the Arryns have much more influential legacy than the Starks, Durrandons, Gardeners, Lannisters et co??

And you call those petty kings?? 

You are saying that.

I am saying that Hightower if we include The Faith and Maesters has more influence over majority of Westeros than most of those houses - but especially Arryns - who hold supremacy in other areas like sheep "husbandry"  

We see  Roland Arryn being impressed by the wonders of the west - including Hightower to begin building the Eyrie:
 

Quote

 

 Roland Arryn had been fostered with an Andal king in the riverlands as a boy and had traveled widely after winning his spurs, visiting Oldtown and Lannisport before returning to the Vale upon his father's death to don the Falcon Crown. Having seen the wonders of the Hightower and Casterly Rock, and the great castles of the First Men that still dotted the lands of the Trident, he felt the Gates of the Moon looked mean and ugly by comparison. King Roland's first impulse was to tear down the Gates and build his new seat upon the same site, but that winter thousands of wildlings descended from the mountains in search of food and shelter, for the high valleys had been buried by deep falls of snow. Their depredations brought home to the king how vulnerable his seat was at its present site.

Legend claims it was his future wife, Lord Hunter's daughter Teora, who reminded him of how his grandfather had defeated Robar Royce, by attacking from the high ground. Much taken by the girl's words, and by the girl herself, Lord Roland resolved to seize the highest ground of all and decreed the building of the castle that would become the Eyrie.

 

 

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

You are saying that.

No, I'm not. 

Quote

Hightowers have much more influential legacy, than many petty kings of Westeros- how many of there were anyway?

 

 Storm King, King of the Iron Islands, Griffon King, Gardner King, King of the Rock, King of the Rivers and Hill, King of Winter, King of the Arbor, King of the High Tower, Darklyn King, Vulture King, Barrow King, King of the Vale and Mountain, Red King, Marsh King, King of the Trident , King of the Fingers, Bronze King, King of Stone and Sky, King of the Torrentine, High King of Dorne, King of the Brimstone, King of Three Sisters, Hooded King...

 

Hell even Ser Utherr Sheet might have some king's blood.

At least edit your comments. Which is false, specifically if we're to compared them with the Arryns. Who paved the way for Andal conquest.

And the Hightowers don't have monopoly of either the Faith or the Citadel... Else people wouldn't follow heed to them.

Quote

We see Roland Arryn being impressed by the wonders of the west - including Hightower to begin building the Eyrie:

So...

 

[Sigella]

On 5/15/2021 at 12:44 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Which contender would you support in the Dance? Aegon or Rhaenyra? Black or Green? Personally, I support Rhaenyra for the reasons of:

1. She has the better claim, with Targaryen blood on both sides

2. Viserys I declared her as his heir

3. Aegon is a hot tempered, fat little fool. He's a drunkard, a glutton and he cheats on his wife, big time. He's also a complete and utter idiot

 

What do you guys think? Black or Green? 

As a reader I'm 100% black (because Rhaenyra was made heir and greens are vulgar and screw the stupid patriarchy) - but had I been an in-story character I'd go green because blacks is too dangerous, they kill anyone around them on whim and I wouldn't be up for that.

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 minutes ago, Sigella said:

As a reader I'm 100% black (because Rhaenyra was made heir and greens are vulgar and screw the stupid patriarchy) - but had I been an in-story character I'd go green because blacks is too dangerous, they kill anyone around them on whim and I wouldn't be up for that.

Logical. 

[Virtualshark]

On 5/20/2021 at 5:07 PM, Eltharion21 said:

The written material begs to differ:

Material written by a Maester, likely based and living in Oldtown working for an orginization founded by the Hightowers.

[Leonardo]

Rhaenyra's heirs are all bastards until Viserys and Aegon. That alone disinherits her.

[Wunjō]

9 hours ago, Leonardo said:

Rhaenyra's heirs are all bastards until Viserys and Aegon. That alone disinherits her.

I disagree. If Viserys and Aegon and legitimate children, then they are the heirs, whether or not their step-brothers are bastards. Also you have to consider that when Viserys I heard an allegation of bastardy he dealt with it swiftly, so I doubt the accused bastardy meant anything in terms of succession. Its like Tommen or Marcella now. Sure they might be Bastards, but the nobles still listen to them and treat them like royalty. 

[Leonardo]

8 minutes ago, Wunjō said:

I disagree. If Viserys and Aegon and legitimate children, then they are the heirs, whether or not their step-brothers are bastards. Also you have to consider that when Viserys I heard an allegation of bastardy he dealt with it swiftly, so I doubt the accused bastardy meant anything in terms of succession. Its like Tommen or Marcella now. Sure they might be Bastards, but the nobles still listen to them and treat them like royalty. 

If Rhaenyra hadn't been married to Laenor, sure. Tommen and Myrcella aren't legitimate heirs either. Rhaenyra was the heir by all rights and procedure but her children being bastards means they couldn't inherit.

[Wunjō]

1 hour ago, Leonardo said:

If Rhaenyra hadn't been married to Laenor, sure. Tommen and Myrcella aren't legitimate heirs either. Rhaenyra was the heir by all rights and procedure but her children being bastards means they couldn't inherit.

But they aren't bastards, the old king said they weren't, and if you said it your tongue would be cut. Its the same with Tommen and Myrcella. Except in this case, they could actually be laenor's legitimate heirs. WE DON'T KNOW