Blacks or Greens?

[Eltharion21]

On 7/1/2021 at 4:54 AM, Virtualshark said:

Material written by a Maester,  ikely based and living in Oldtown working for an orginization founded by the Hightowers.

If it is publicly released, which it was it, than it falls under scrutiny of the ruling power in Westeros at the time - Targaryen dynasty - which was ever sensitive about bad image - examples of censure by Baelor the Blessed, Aerion Brightflame,Bloodraven,  Aerys the Mad King.

Saying all Maesters are part of a hive mind is like saying all the doctors are part of same conspiracy, it couldn't be true as they have varied loyalties, ideas and goals and the more people are involved more the chance it would be found out.

[Virtualshark]

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

If it is publicly released, which it was it, than it falls under scrutiny of the ruling power in Westeros at the time - Targaryen dynasty - which was ever sensitive about bad image - examples of censure by Baelor the Blessed, Aerion Brightflame,Bloodraven,  Aerys the Mad King.

Saying all Maesters are part of a hive mind is like saying all the doctors are part of same conspiracy, it couldn't be true as they have varied loyalties, ideas and goals and the more people are involved more the chance it would be found out.

Those are a lot of intesting words you're putting in my mouth. I never said anything about all maesters being in on a conspiracy.
More that badmouthing the family who run the city your orginization is based in is a fairly idiotic idea.

I just don't see you would take the words of someone in the setting with obvious reason for a bias as fact when the author is well known for unreliable narrators, maybe he did think the Hightowers are incredibly noble, that doesn't make it true.

Also Fire and Blood was released during the reign of Robert or later according to the wiki.

[Kinola]

Black, definitely black. Along with his partying ways, Aegon 2 cheated on his sister-wife, had a manipulative mother, and all his kids had physical and mental problems due to inbreeding (well mostly Jaehaerys & Jaehaera, not sure what was wrong with Maelor).

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Kinola

Nothing was wrong with Maelor. As for Jaehaerys, he was mentally sound.

[The Merling King]

I agree both sides were led by horrible people and did horrible things but I think the blacks take the cake with Blood and cheese and also that Aegon II was the rightful heir by custom and the precedent set forth by the great council. I can’t think of any historical example were a king wants his elder daughter to succeed over a legitimate son. I find it unrealistic and personally think it would make more sense if Alicent Hightower would have married a third brother of Viserys and Daemon instead of Viserys, thus making Rhaenyra and the Targaryen-Hightower children cousins and King Viserys with only one child and no alternative heir of his own blood. That would at least be realistic and closer to the the historical basis of the Anarchy and civil war between Emperess Matilda and her cousins Stephen.

With that said, the blacks do have a more likable supporting cast but the greens were written to be unlikable and incompetent from the start, even more so in F&B then TOATQ, like when John Roxton is made to be a rapist and Daeron the Daring is turned into a war criminal at Bitterbridge.

[Daemon of the Blacks]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:40 AM, The Merling King said:

With that said, the blacks do have a more likable supporting cast but the greens were written to be unlikable and incompetent from the start, even more so in F&B then TOATQ, like when John Roxton is made to be a rapist and Daeron the Daring is turned into a war criminal at Bitterbridge.

Sometimes I think Martin made his preference for the Blacks a bit too obvious. Whenever a character in the war is sympathetic or even lovable you usually find them on the side of the Blacks. Even the Frey lord found within their ranks seems to be a decent chap. And if a character is completely irredeemable or even clinically insane then they'll be found with the Greens. 

Now Daemon does add some nuance to this since he's an awful person but unlike most evil Green commanders he's also a supremely awesome, larger than life figure. And even when Rheanyra's sanity begins to crack its clear that the amount of tragedy she endured broke her, unlike her rival brothers who have always been insane. 

Its clear that to some degree the Dance of the Dragons recycles a lot of plot points and characters from ASOIF, and its noteworthy that the ''expies'' of the Lannisters, the schemers and the irredeemable characters of the main series are always in the Greens. Both Aegon and Aemond seem to be based on Joffrey, Cole is Littlefinger, Otto is a less impressive Tywin, Larys seems based on Varys and you could argue queen Alicent is a more stable version of Cersei.

The ruling couple of the Blacks are a bit of an exception. Daemon strongly reminds me of Jaime and in her darker moments Rheanyra shares some traits with Cersei. 

[nyser1]

I could say Blacks because I like the Starks and others backing the faction, but, for me it comes down to her being the designated heir. If Aegon II had been the designated heir, I would have backed the Greens.

[Lord Varys]

On 9/4/2021 at 11:24 PM, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Sometimes I think Martin made his preference for the Blacks a bit too obvious. Whenever a character in the war is sympathetic or even lovable you usually find them on the side of the Blacks. Even the Frey lord found within their ranks seems to be a decent chap. And if a character is completely irredeemable or even clinically insane then they'll be found with the Greens. 

I don't think it is more obvious than, say, in ASoIaF where there are also clear villains and clear heroes. Even if not all the Lannisters are thugs, they are mostly villains, especially if you consider the politics of the house as a whole. Then even Tyrion is a villain, considering he faithfully serves Joffrey as Acting Hand and Master of Coin until he is arrested.

And within the setting it is quite clear the Blacks have the moral highground because Rhaenyra is the chosen heir, her family are the attacked party, and many of the people supporting her take up arms to defend her rights ... and not the help the ambitious Green cabal at court to seize power.

But I'd not say all Greens are bad guys or unsympathetic - Larys Strong is quite an interesting character, Ser Perkin the Flea is fun, Grand Maester Orwyle is sympathetic, and Ser Tyland Lannister is even a tragic hero of sorts.

And among the Green Targaryens you have Daeron the Daring and Helaena as sympathetic characters - although the former also commands and personally commits atrocities at Bitterbridge.

On 9/4/2021 at 11:24 PM, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Now Daemon does add some nuance to this since he's an awful person but unlike most evil Green commanders he's also a supremely awesome, larger than life figure. And even when Rheanyra's sanity begins to crack its clear that the amount of tragedy she endured broke her, unlike her rival brothers who have always been insane.

I don't think any of the Targaryens during the Dance were 'insane'. Just cruel and stupid. Rhaenyra's sanity never cracks, she just makes some bad choices when appointing/trusting people and she is too weak when she should have been strong (during the riots she should have mounted Syrax to defend the Dragonpit). But she never descends into insanity. And neither do Aegon II or Aemond - although Daemon certainly seems to have a mental breakdown when he throws away his life.

On 9/4/2021 at 11:24 PM, Daemon of the Blacks said:

The ruling couple of the Blacks are a bit of an exception. Daemon strongly reminds me of Jaime and in her darker moments Rheanyra shares some traits with Cersei. 

Rhaenyra is very much based on Catelyn, it seems. She is very much motivated by the desire to protect her sons, just like Cat wants to protect her children. And while Luke's death throws her in the throes of a deep depression, the loss of Jace shakes her out of that - like Bran's fall nearly broke Catelyn but the second attempt on his and her life snapped her out of her depression.

There is, of course, the difference that Rhaenyra is a pretender and ruler in her own right, but she has nothing in common with Cersei who wants to steal and usurp power and, eventually, to rule in perpetuity in the name of her minor son. We also have no indication that Rhaenyra ever plotted or schemed to destroy or murder the people she may have perceived as rivals prior to the Dance - unlike Cersei who plotted to destroy Robert, Robert's brothers, and Margaery. And even afterwards she didn't kill Alicent and Helaena - Cersei most definitely would have killed Stannis and Shireen and Renly if she had ever gotten hold of them.

When Rhaenyra rages and commands the arrest of Addam Velaryon and subsequently the execution of Nettles this is very much another version, one assumes, of Aerys II's decision to demand the heads of both Robert and Ned after he had just executed Brandon and Rickard. If that's the case, though, then the Rhaenyra parallel might be seen as foreshadowing to the detailed and complete version of events at Aerys' court - namely, that Aerys II, like Rhaenyra (who acted the way she did because she was pushed by her loyal advisers and, especially, the lies of Mysaria), ended up sending that raven to Jon Arryn not so much because he was 'mad' but rather because certain people at court painted a picture that fueled his paranoia to the extreme - like it was with Rhaenyra.

In Rhaenyra's case we mustn't forget that the treason of the Two Betrayers caused a massive frenzy. At this time in the war Rhaenyra had been betrayed by her Hightower in-laws and half-siblings, by the Grand Maester, by her in-law/cousin-by-marriage, Borros Baratheon, by the Kingsguard (when the Arryk Cargyll tried to slay either her or her sons), and then, finally, by the Two Betrayers and other turncloaks. She had no reason to believe Addam and Nettles were more or less reliable than all the people she trusted who had already betrayed her.

And throughout the entire war the spectre of dragons burning entire cities with tens or hundreds of thousands of people inside the walls was a very real danger. It was quite prominent in the minds of the Targaryens as well as the lords and smallfolk. That fear is what causes Rhaenyra and her people to view Nettles and Addam as potential traitors. And if you have the vivid image of a burning KL in your mind - which would have been there after the reports from Tumbleton reached court - it is very easy to overreact.

In the end, though, it is quite clear that this was stupidity in the highest order. They needed the dragonriders to defend the city against the dragons of the Greens. If Nettles is dead and Addam arrested, who would stop Vermithor and Silverwing and Tessarion if they ever showed up at KL? Not to mention that technically Vhagar could have still teamed up with them.

18 hours ago, nyser1 said:

I could say Blacks because I like the Starks and others backing the faction, but, for me it comes down to her being the designated heir. If Aegon II had been the designated heir, I would have backed the Greens.

I do like Cregan Stark to a point, but he isn't that heroic or good a character. He wants to continue a war when it is already over, and he came rather late to the party, anyway, offering at best token support to Rhaenyra when she could have used his full strength. One also can seriously question his decision to not keep the Handship and run the Regency government of Aegon III. The rise of Unwin Peake certainly can be laid at his feet to a point. If he had stayed at court, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, his insistence to punish the murderers of Aegon II is very hypocritical in light of the fact that he wanted to do the same thing and then some. Effectively, that's the action of a sulking child who wants to punish the people who 'stole his victory' by removing Aegon II when they did. But that actually saved lives and ended a war, so he should have Larys Strong and Corlys Velaryon rather than attacking them.

[nyser1]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think it is more obvious than, say, in ASoIaF where there are also clear villains and clear heroes. Even if not all the Lannisters are thugs, they are mostly villains, especially if you consider the politics of the house as a whole. Then even Tyrion is a villain, considering he faithfully serves Joffrey as Acting Hand and Master of Coin until he is arrested.

And within the setting it is quite clear the Blacks have the moral highground because Rhaenyra is the chosen heir, her family are the attacked party, and many of the people supporting her take up arms to defend her rights ... and not the help the ambitious Green cabal at court to seize power.

But I'd not say all Greens are bad guys or unsympathetic - Larys Strong is quite an interesting character, Ser Perkin the Flea is fun, Grand Maester Orwyle is sympathetic, and Ser Tyland Lannister is even a tragic hero of sorts.

And among the Green Targaryens you have Daeron the Daring and Helaena as sympathetic characters - although the former also commands and personally commits atrocities at Bitterbridge.

I don't think any of the Targaryens during the Dance were 'insane'. Just cruel and stupid. Rhaenyra's sanity never cracks, she just makes some bad choices when appointing/trusting people and she is too weak when she should have been strong (during the riots she should have mounted Syrax to defend the Dragonpit). But she never descends into insanity. And neither do Aegon II or Aemond - although Daemon certainly seems to have a mental breakdown when he throws away his life.

Rhaenyra is very much based on Catelyn, it seems. She is very much motivated by the desire to protect her sons, just like Cat wants to protect her children. And while Luke's death throws her in the throes of a deep depression, the loss of Jace shakes her out of that - like Bran's fall nearly broke Catelyn but the second attempt on his and her life snapped her out of her depression.

There is, of course, the difference that Rhaenyra is a pretender and ruler in her own right, but she has nothing in common with Cersei who wants to steal and usurp power and, eventually, to rule in perpetuity in the name of her minor son. We also have no indication that Rhaenyra ever plotted or schemed to destroy or murder the people she may have perceived as rivals prior to the Dance - unlike Cersei who plotted to destroy Robert, Robert's brothers, and Margaery. And even afterwards she didn't kill Alicent and Helaena - Cersei most definitely would have killed Stannis and Shireen and Renly if she had ever gotten hold of them.

When Rhaenyra rages and commands the arrest of Addam Velaryon and subsequently the execution of Nettles this is very much another version, one assumes, of Aerys II's decision to demand the heads of both Robert and Ned after he had just executed Brandon and Rickard. If that's the case, though, then the Rhaenyra parallel might be seen as foreshadowing to the detailed and complete version of events at Aerys' court - namely, that Aerys II, like Rhaenyra (who acted the way she did because she was pushed by her loyal advisers and, especially, the lies of Mysaria), ended up sending that raven to Jon Arryn not so much because he was 'mad' but rather because certain people at court painted a picture that fueled his paranoia to the extreme - like it was with Rhaenyra.

In Rhaenyra's case we mustn't forget that the treason of the Two Betrayers caused a massive frenzy. At this time in the war Rhaenyra had been betrayed by her Hightower in-laws and half-siblings, by the Grand Maester, by her in-law/cousin-by-marriage, Borros Baratheon, by the Kingsguard (when the Arryk Cargyll tried to slay either her or her sons), and then, finally, by the Two Betrayers and other turncloaks. She had no reason to believe Addam and Nettles were more or less reliable than all the people she trusted who had already betrayed her.

And throughout the entire war the spectre of dragons burning entire cities with tens or hundreds of thousands of people inside the walls was a very real danger. It was quite prominent in the minds of the Targaryens as well as the lords and smallfolk. That fear is what causes Rhaenyra and her people to view Nettles and Addam as potential traitors. And if you have the vivid image of a burning KL in your mind - which would have been there after the reports from Tumbleton reached court - it is very easy to overreact.

In the end, though, it is quite clear that this was stupidity in the highest order. They needed the dragonriders to defend the city against the dragons of the Greens. If Nettles is dead and Addam arrested, who would stop Vermithor and Silverwing and Tessarion if they ever showed up at KL? Not to mention that technically Vhagar could have still teamed up with them.

I do like Cregan Stark to a point, but he isn't that heroic or good a character. He wants to continue a war when it is already over, and he came rather late to the party, anyway, offering at best token support to Rhaenyra when she could have used his full strength. One also can seriously question his decision to not keep the Handship and run the Regency government of Aegon III. The rise of Unwin Peake certainly can be laid at his feet to a point. If he had stayed at court, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, his insistence to punish the murderers of Aegon II is very hypocritical in light of the fact that he wanted to do the same thing and then some. Effectively, that's the action of a sulking child who wants to punish the people who 'stole his victory' by removing Aegon II when they did. But that actually saved lives and ended a war, so he should have Larys Strong and Corlys Velaryon rather than attacking them.

Do you believe characters such as Cregan and his uncle serve a purpose for George in illustrating not only the different cultural of the North, but a “darker” and less Disney hero side than that which way Ned and Robb appear to be? Not saying that they are, but they can be seen in that light.

[Lord Varys]

44 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

Do you believe characters such as Cregan and his uncle serve a purpose for George in illustrating not only the different cultural of the North, but a “darker” and less Disney hero side than that which way Ned and Robb appear to be? Not saying that they are, but they can be seen in that light.

I don't think it illustrates a different culture as such but rather that the Starks are lords just like everybody else. Jeyne Arryn had a cousin who wanted to be lord in her stead, and Cregan had an uncle who wanted that. That's business as usual in noble circles - we also get this with Renly wanting to be king, Arnolf Karstark wanting to be lord, etc.

What Cregan and Alaric also show is that most Lords of Winterfell were harder and harsher than Ned ever was ... in part, one imagines, because Ned was never groomed to rule and always felt an inadequacy in that department, thinking he was, unjustly, taking Brandon's place. And in a sense Ned's softness may have been also part of the downfall of Robb because he couldn't imagine to what levels his enemies might sink. I don't think it is a coincidence that the surviving Stark children now have all teachers of questionable morals who can show them how to really prevail in the political arena - Bran has Bloodraven, Sansa has Littlefinger, and Arya has the Faceless Men (and her experiences in the Riverlands). Hell, even Rickon might have stern and hard teachers/guardians on Skagos. And Jon Snow also learned how things were in the real world at the Wall and with the wildlings.

But there are also similarities between Cregan and Ned - both insist that foul treason has to be punished. But while we can assume that Ned actually meant what he said when he demanded Jaime's head for his kingslaying and pushed Robert to also punish the murderers of Elia and the children - in Cregan's case it is pretty clear that his insistence that the murderers of Aegon II be punished is part punishment for them ending the war and part a coup of sorts to effectively take over the government of Aegon III - in which he then later decides to play no part which is also kind of weird/stupid. In the end, all he got from his involvement in the war seems to have been a gorgeous new wife ;-).

The difference between Tywin and Jaime and, especially, Corlys Velaryon (Larys Strong not so much, he is a turncloak thrice over) is that the former either stayed out of the war until it was effectively over to pull a betrayal then or were at the Mad King's side until he had effectively lost whereas Corlys Velaryon was a Black from the start and only part of the court of Aegon II because he had been a captive. He didn't betray his 'rightful king' ... but Tywin and Jaime did.

You can also see how different the Sack of KL would have gone if it had been more like the murder of Aegon II - a surgical strike to take out the shitty king and his closest allies - and not a massacre of innocent women and children nor a regicide committed by a knight of the Kingsguard with his own hands. In the latter case Robert's ascension wouldn't have gone much smoother with less bad blood between the rebels and the loyalists.

[Eltharion21]

On 9/4/2021 at 11:24 PM, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Sometimes I think Martin made his preference for the Blacks a bit too obvious. Whenever a character in the war is sympathetic or even lovable you usually find them on the side of the Blacks. Even the Frey lord found within their ranks seems to be a decent chap. And if a character is completely irredeemable or even clinically insane then they'll be found with the Greens. 

Now Daemon does add some nuance to this since he's an awful person but unlike most evil Green commanders he's also a supremely awesome, larger than life figure. And even when Rheanyra's sanity begins to crack its clear that the amount of tragedy she endured broke her, unlike her rival brothers who have always been insane. 

Its clear that to some degree the Dance of the Dragons recycles a lot of plot points and characters from ASOIF, and its noteworthy that the ''expies'' of the Lannisters, the schemers and the irredeemable characters of the main series are always in the Greens. Both Aegon and Aemond seem to be based on Joffrey, Cole is Littlefinger, Otto is a less impressive Tywin, Larys seems based on Varys and you could argue queen Alicent is a more stable version of Cersei.

The ruling couple of the Blacks are a bit of an exception. Daemon strongly reminds me of Jaime and in her darker moments Rheanyra shares some traits with Cersei. 

Daemon is hardly anything like Jaime Lannister- he is a version of Oberyn or with some hints of Tyrion Lannister darker personality and issues. 

If any character is similar to Jaime Lannister it is Ser Criston Cole, with multitude of parallels, for example:

Quote

"And me, that boy I was ... when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead."

Quote

"I'll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker. There's tens o' thousands dead on your account."

VS

Loras: The heroes will always be remembered. The best.
Jaime: "The best and the worst." So one of us is like to live in song. "And a few who were a bit of both. Like him." He tapped the page he had been reading.
Loras: Who? Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms.
Jaime: They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon. They called him Kingmaker.

Cole could be only linked to Littlefinger in most biased interpretation of events and even then doesn't seem to share Baelish's shrewdness and is more blunt in his approach, then again Martin's own introduction to a casting for a tv show makes him seem more morally complex than Lord Mockingbird.

Quote

He is the common-born son of the steward to the Lord of Blackhaven.   He has no claim to lands or titles, all he has is his honor and his skill with sword and lance.

He is a challenger, a champion, cheered by the commons, beloved of the ladies.

He is a lover (or is he?), a seducer (or is he?), a betrayer (or is he?), a breaker of hearts and a maker of kings.

 

[Lord Varys]

39 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Cole could be only linked to Littlefinger in most biased interpretation of events and even then doesn't seem to share Baelish's shrewdness and is more blunt in his approach, then again Martin's own introduction to a casting for a tv show makes him seem more morally complex than Lord Mockingbird.

Cole has nothing in common with Jaime. Jaime was born to privilege and wealth whereas Cole was a lowborn nobody. Jaime joined the KG to fuck his sister, Cole joined the KG, presumably, to make a career of sorts. For Cole his knighthood may have been an honor, the first step out of the confines of his father's steward world ... whereas for Jaime his knighthood was just a formality. It was never in doubt that Jaime Lannister of Casterly Rock would become a knight.

Littlefinger and Cole have everything in common ... but the career in which they rose to power and popularity (and, yes, Littlefinger is popular with a lot of people, women included). They are both obscure nobodies who had to catch the eye of the court to start a proper career. With charm and smiles they wormed their way into the minds and hearts of the powerful and then they spread their poison - literally and figuratively.

Also, Littlefinger is a pretty complex character, motivated by weird issues he had with certain highborn women ... which also seems to be at heart of whatever weirdo motivations Cole had.

The idea that Criston Cole would ever view himself as having become a person like the Smiling Knight is also very unlikely. He died as the Hand of Aegon II. He doesn't seem to have entertained any doubts about his actions.

[Eltharion21]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cole has nothing in common with Jaime. Jaime was born to privilege and wealth whereas Cole was a lowborn nobody. Jaime joined the KG to fuck his sister, Cole joined the KG, presumably, to make a career of sorts. For Cole his knighthood may have been an honor, the first step out of the confines of his father's steward world ... whereas for Jaime his knighthood was just a formality. It was never in doubt that Jaime Lannister of Casterly Rock would become a knight.

Littlefinger and Cole have everything in common ... but the career in which they rose to power and popularity (and, yes, Littlefinger is popular with a lot of people, women included). They are both obscure nobodies who had to catch the eye of the court to start a proper career. With charm and smiles they wormed their way into the minds and hearts of the powerful and then they spread their poison - literally and figuratively.

Also, Littlefinger is a pretty complex character, motivated by weird issues he had with certain highborn women ... which also seems to be at heart of whatever weirdo motivations Cole had.

The idea that Criston Cole would ever view himself as having become a person like the Smiling Knight is also very unlikely. He died as the Hand of Aegon II. He doesn't seem to have entertained any doubts about his actions.

Jaime and Cole have extraordinary martial prowess, they both got their female companions influence joining the Kingsguard - Rhaenyra and Cersei ( who are also parallels), they both become Lord Commander of Kingsguard, they are both involved majorly in fighting in Riverlands. Jaime Lannister was also fairly popular with women ( as Pia states), and as a tourney knight, Cole and Jaime are also both reviled  in histories as Kingmaker and Kingslayer.

Despite Jaime's high societal position he was chosen as a Kingsguard despite of it as a means of reigning in Tywin and through suggestion of Cersei, so your analogy doesn't apply.

Jaime and Cole have also similar way of dealing with foes - in battle of the Whispering Wood - Jaime despite taken by surprise and his army    annihilated, he attempts to cut his way to Robb and kill him, before the Butcher's ball - Ser Cole, when caught in a trap suggests a fight between him and three commanders of Riverlords , and draws his blade when negotiations fail.

Littlefinger is hardly a complex character, in ethical sense he has grievance toward upper classes, unfulfilled adolescent sexual fantasy, yet he doesn't grow from there but becomes worse than those who have wronged him in his view , by exploiting lower classes and especially sexually exploiting young people in his brothels, manipulating and murdering those who cared for him - Lysa and causing war to achieve his aspirations.

Ser Cole on the other hand was possibly right in attempt to stop Daemon's and Rhaenyra's corruption in ruining the Seven Kingdoms.

Ser Cole died while returning alone from Harrenhal- being left by Aemond and Vhagar- the reason for their split is debatable, it might have been matter of tactics and joining forces with Hightowers and Daeron the Daring, feud for the Alys Rivers or I daresay he might have been disenchanted with his cause after witnessing Aemond's genocide inside of Harrenhal.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Jaime and Cole have extraordinary martial prowess, they both got their female companions influence joining the Kingsguard - Rhaenyra and Cersei ( who are also parallels), they both become Lord Commander of Kingsguard, they are both involved majorly in fighting in Riverlands. Jaime Lannister was also fairly popular with women ( as Pia states), and as a tourney knight, Cole and Jaime are also both reviled as Kingmaker and Kingslayer.

Rhaenyra has no part in Criston Cole joining the KG. She only asks her father to make Criston Cole her sworn shield after the man has joined the KG.

Cole doesn't join the KG to fuck a woman (who happens to be his sister). Cole is the Kingmaker, yes, and Jaime the Kingslayer, but those are rather different things. The Kingslayer is loathed and hated by pretty much all decent folk (only the power of House Lannister with King Robert kept Jaime alive and in the KG) whereas Cole is a much greyer character. Half the Realm loathed him - or perhaps even more, if they credit him with the beginning of the Dance - but he was still the loyal Lord Commander and Hand of Aegon II. Unlike Jaime, Cole's good deeds seem to be still remembered despite his bad deeds ... whereas Jaime's good deeds were completely erased in the eyes of the public when he murdered Aerys II. Because that's the ultimate sin of a Kingsguard, a sin Criston Cole never committed.

That they were both attractive, knights, and fought in the Riverlands is hardly noteworthy. That's the case for a lot of people.

4 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Despite Jaime's high position he was chosen as a Kingsguard despite of it as a means of reigning in Tywin and through suggestion of Cersei.

I was not talking about the Kingsguard here - although that, too, is something a Lannister may feel entitled to whereas for a man like Cole it is something he can only dream about in most cases - I was talking about knighthood.

4 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Jaime and Cole have also similar way of dealing with foes - in battle of the Whispering Wood - Jaime despite taken by surprise and his army    annihilated, he attempts to cut his way to Robb and kill him, before the Butcher's ball - Ser Cole, when caught in a trap suggests a fight between him and three commanders of Riverlords , and draws his blade when negotiations fail.

Well, they are knights ... and neither wanted to die an ignominious death. Littlefinger might die in a similar manner as Cole, by the way. Cole got the death of a peasant, basically, and Littlefinger might get something quite similar.

4 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Littlefinger is hardly a complex character, in ethical sense he has grievance toward upper classes, unfulfilled adolescent sexual fantasy, yet he doesn't grow from there but becomes worse than those who have wronged him in his view , by exploiting lower clasess and especially sexually exploiting young people in his brothels, manipulating and murdering those who cared for him - Lysa and causing war to achieve his aspirations.

Littlefinger's issues with Catelyn and Sansa are quite complex. And it might be the same with Cole. In fact, Rhaenyra might be both Cole's Sansa and his Catelyn - in that order, for Littlefinger it is reversed. He first got his Catelyn and then he found his Sansa. Cole may have viewed Rhaenyra, originally, like he would a daughter only to slowly realize that he also desired her sexually and romantically. George is very clear that Littlefinger's feelings towards Sansa are complex - she is part pawn, part the daughter he and Cat should have had, and part a younger, more beautiful Catelyn he desires.

At Littlefinger's core it is all about the Tully women. The other stuff doesn't matter all that much. And it seems to be the same with Cole.

4 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Ser Cole on the other hand was possibly right in attempt to stop Daemon's and Rhaenyra's corruption in ruining the Seven Kingdoms.

Definitely not. He was a servant sworn to obey his king and broke that promise. A Kingsguard has no right meddling with the royal succession. Viserys I could have left the kingdom to his dog ... and Cole would have still had no right to interfere.

And handing the kingdom to the likes of Aegon II and Aemond is laughable if you want to fight 'corruption'. These two are pretty much at the top of the worst and the stupidest Targaryens in the entire book series.

4 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Ser Cole died while returning alone from Harrenhal- being left by Aemond and Vhagar- the reason for their split is debatable, it might have been matter of tactics and joining forces with Hightowers and Daeron, feud for the Alys Rivers or I daresey he might have been disenchanted with his cause after witnessing Aemond's genocide inside of Harrenhal.

LOL, what? Weeks passed between the Strong massacre and their split. Not to mention that Cole himself wasn't exactly a fan of the Strongs. There isn't the slightest indication that he gave a fig about the Strongs Aemond butchered.

And while we don't know what exactly happened between Aemond and Cole it is quite clear that Aemond decided he would leave. He was the Prince Regent and the blood of the dragon with the largest dragon alive. He commanded and Cole obeyed. If Aemond had wanted to keep the army and if he had wanted Cole to accompany him then this would have happened. It is quite clear that Aemond decided to cut his ties with Cole and the army ... because neither Cole nor the army would have dared to abandon Aemond.

The dynamic between those men is pretty clear. Originally Cole was Aemond's teacher and mentor as a knight. But when Aegon II got injured (thanks to Cole's plan) and Cole urged Aemond to take on the mantle of the Prince Regent Aemond became king in all but name. And then he called the shots.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 9/6/2021 at 5:13 AM, Lord Varys said:

Ser Tyland Lannister is even a tragic hero of sorts.

Poor guy got his family jewels cut off. 

22 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Ser Cole on the other hand was possibly right in attempt to stop Daemon's and Rhaenyra's corruption in ruining the Seven Kingdoms.

 

ARE YOU MAD? Are you saying that Aegon II and Aemond Kinslayer would have been BETTER for the realm? LMFAO.   Aegon would've been just like Robert with a dragon. Aemond would've burned half the realm down, and I wouldn't put it past them to massacre Rhaenyra's branch to prevent alternate claimants from arising once everyone realized Aegon was a drunken, gluttonous whoremonger. 

[Eltharion21]

On 9/7/2021 at 3:16 AM, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra has no part in Criston Cole joining the KG. She only asks her father to make Criston Cole her sworn shield after the man has joined the KG.

Cole doesn't join the KG to fuck a woman (who happens to be his sister). Cole is the Kingmaker, yes, and Jaime the Kingslayer, but those are rather different things. The Kingslayer is loathed and hated by pretty much all decent folk (only the power of House Lannister with King Robert kept Jaime alive and in the KG) whereas Cole is a much greyer character. Half the Realm loathed him - or perhaps even more, if they credit him with the beginning of the Dance - but he was still the loyal Lord Commander and Hand of Aegon II. Unlike Jaime, Cole's good deeds seem to be still remembered despite his bad deeds ... whereas Jaime's good deeds were completely erased in the eyes of the public when he murdered Aerys II. Because that's the ultimate sin of a Kingsguard, a sin Criston Cole never committed.

That they were both attractive, knights, and fought in the Riverlands is hardly noteworthy. That's the case for a lot of people.

It is relatively small step from sworn shield of a King's daughter to Kingsguard as for example Sandor Clegane's promotion would testify.

You could say Jaime is loyal to the "Baratheon" regime  - being sent as Lord Commander of Kingsguard to pacify the Riverlands- also both Jaime's and Cole's travails are tied to Harrenhal.

Ser Cole is accused of murdering Lyman Beesbury by slitting his throat in Small council meeting - which is reminiscent of Jaimie's act.

They are both Lord Commander of Kingsguard - not just any knight and leading armies in Riverlands - not simply fought, were best fighters of their time, had liaison with a lady of Royal court - controversial Queen figure that both had three bastards - one of which is named Joffrey...

On 9/7/2021 at 3:16 AM, Lord Varys said:

I was not talking about the Kingsguard here - although that, too, is something a Lannister may feel entitled to whereas for a man like Cole it is something he can only dream about in most cases - I was talking about knighthood.

Any knight can make a knight  - as we see with Perkin the Flea knighting every bum during the Moon of Three Kings. or Beric Dondarrion, or even person could pretend to be a knight like Duncan the Tall.

On 9/7/2021 at 3:16 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, they are knights ... and neither wanted to die an ignominious death. Littlefinger might die in a similar manner as Cole, by the way. Cole got the death of a peasant, basically, and Littlefinger might get something quite similar.

Getting murdered in premeditated trap, in a meeting with three renowned warriors - Garibald the Gray, Pete the Lionslayer and Roddy the Ruin - who refuse his challenge, with Robb Rivers finest archer in Westeros and two more have him on scope is selling it short as a "peasants death".

Ser Cole certainly died bravely acknowledging his doom:

Quote

 Above their heads flew Queen Rhaenyra’s banners. “Who are they?” a squire asked when the foe appeared, for they showed no arms but the queen’s. “Our death,” answered Ser Criston Cole for these foes were fresh, better fed, better horsed, better armed, and they held the high ground, whilst his own men were stumbling, sick, and dispirited.

 

On 9/7/2021 at 3:16 AM, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger's issues with Catelyn and Sansa are quite complex. And it might be the same with Cole. In fact, Rhaenyra might be both Cole's Sansa and his Catelyn - in that order, for Littlefinger it is reversed. He first got his Catelyn and then he found his Sansa. Cole may have viewed Rhaenyra, originally, like he would a daughter only to slowly realize that he also desired her sexually and romantically. George is very clear that Littlefinger's feelings towards Sansa are complex - she is part pawn, part the daughter he and Cat should have had, and part a younger, more beautiful Catelyn he desires.

At Littlefinger's core it is all about the Tully women. The other stuff doesn't matter all that much. And it seems to be the same with Cole.

It is doubtful that Cole had similar relationship with Rhaenyra, as they met while he was 23 years old and Rhaenyra was 7 year old girl- he spent his next 10 years always being in her proximity  - and it is doubtful he would develop romantical tendencies, unlike other characters like Daemon or Harwin Strong - which is much more plausible version.

Despite what George says, Littlefinger's actions speak louder than that- Petyr has large part in downfall of Sansa's family and torment of people dear to her like Jeyne Poole - who he forces in one of his brothels to be "educated" for his purposes. There is hardly any good in that man even in relation to things he cherishes most - like adolescent fantasy of Catelyn.

Cole is more then only women  - "all he has is his honor and his skill with sword and lance", and he is also linked to Alicent Hightower, her sons as their tutor and even Alys Rivers.

On 9/7/2021 at 3:16 AM, Lord Varys said:

Definitely not. He was a servant sworn to obey his king and broke that promise. A Kingsguard has no right meddling with the royal succession. Viserys I could have left the kingdom to his dog ... and Cole would have still had no right to interfere.

And handing the kingdom to the likes of Aegon II and Aemond is laughable if you want to fight 'corruption'. These two are pretty much at the top of the worst and the stupidest Targaryens in the entire book series.

You unwittingly prove another parallel of Jamie and Cole  - they both interfere in presumption of irreproachable royal authority, one by slaying the king and other as supporting other claimant.

As true Varys said - they are both part of the riddle of the power, shadow on the wall, both Jaime and Cole represent swordsman who with his action influences fates of the Realm.

Aemond is but a mirror image of his uncle Daemon- they are basically same person, yet there was still chance for Aemond's redemption as he was young, Aegon II proved he is less cruel than his half-sister in his actions.

Though some dog might do better job than Aegon and especially Rhaenyra.

On 9/7/2021 at 3:16 AM, Lord Varys said:

LOL, what? Weeks passed between the Strong massacre and their split. Not to mention that Cole himself wasn't exactly a fan of the Strongs. There isn't the slightest indication that he gave a fig about the Strongs Aemond butchered.

And while we don't know what exactly happened between Aemond and Cole it is quite clear that Aemond decided he would leave. He was the Prince Regent and the blood of the dragon with the largest dragon alive. He commanded and Cole obeyed. If Aemond had wanted to keep the army and if he had wanted Cole to accompany him then this would have happened. It is quite clear that Aemond decided to cut his ties with Cole and the army ... because neither Cole nor the army would have dared to abandon Aemond.

The dynamic between those men is pretty clear. Originally Cole was Aemond's teacher and mentor as a knight. But when Aegon II got injured (thanks to Cole's plan) and Cole urged Aemond to take on the mantle of the Prince Regent Aemond became king in all but name. And then he called the shots.

It is explicitly stated that Aemond didn't command Cole to leave.
In paragraph reason to split  of Aemond and Cole is left far more open, than for example some idiotic suggestions that Rhaenyra had romantic relationship with Laena Velaryon - based on phrase "more than fond".

Quote

 

Ser Criston called that folly. “One against six is a fight for fools, My Prince,” he declared. Let them march south, he urged once more, and join their strength to Lord Hightower’s. Prince Aemond could reunite with his brother Daeron and his dragon. King Aegon had escaped Rhaenyra’s grasp, this they knew, surely he would reclaim Sunfyre and join his brothers. And perhaps their friends inside the city might find a way to free Queen Helaena as well, so she could bring Dreamfyre to the battle. Four dragons could perhaps prevail against six, if one was Vhagar.
         

   Prince Aemond refused to consider this “craven course.” As regent for his brother, he might have commanded the Hand’s obedience, yet he did not. Munkun says that this was because of his respect for the older man, whilst Mushroom suggests that the two men had become rivals for the affections of the wet nurse Alys Rivers, who had used love potions and philtres to inflame their passions. Septon Eustace echoes the dwarf in part, but says it was Aemond alone who had become besotted with the Rivers woman, to such an extent that he could not bear the thought of leaving her.

Whatever the reason, Ser Criston and Prince Aemond decided to part ways.

 

[Eltharion21]

3 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

ARE YOU MAD? Are you saying that Aegon II and Aemond Kinslayer would have been BETTER for the realm? LMFAO.   Aegon would've been just like Robert with a dragon. Aemond would've burned half the realm down, and I wouldn't put it past them to massacre Rhaenyra's branch to prevent alternate claimants from arising once everyone realized Aegon was a drunken, gluttonous whoremonger. 

"Robert with a dragon", now that is a high praise, i see Aegon more like a Theon Greyjoy figure.

Regardless Aegon showed he is less cruel than his half- sister, through multitude of her acts alone.

Aemond is but a mirror image of his uncle, yet there was a chance for redemption as he was still young - and Daemon was corrupt until the end.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

"Robert with a dragon", now that is a high praise, i see Aegon more like a Theon Greyjoy figure.

 

Robert ran the kingdom into the ground with his debts and such, was cuckolded by his wife and you think he was good?Not to mention smiling over the corpses of children.  Oh, sure, he was better than Aegon II. But in the end, I think they both would have had the same impacts (except for being cuckolded of course) 

3 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Aemond is but a mirror image of his uncle, yet there was a chance for redemption as he was still young - and Daemon was corrupt until the end.

True on Aemond being redeemable, but if Aemond could be redeemable from a young age, then so can Daemon. 

[Daeron the Daring]

Never tought I see someone explicitly claim Aegon II was having a redemption arc. Tell that to lil Aegon III whom he would've killed or at least castrated if it wasn't for Corlys who would've become free of their leverage over him that way. Or to Rhaenyra's remaining leg which fell out of Sunfyre's mouth. And he made the boy watch. A 10 year-old kid. 

On 9/6/2021 at 3:13 PM, Lord Varys said:

I do like Cregan Stark to a point, but he isn't that heroic or good a character. He wants to continue a war when it is already over, and he came rather late to the party, anyway, offering at best token support to Rhaenyra when she could have used his full strength. One also can seriously question his decision to not keep the Handship and run the Regency government of Aegon III. The rise of Unwin Peake certainly can be laid at his feet to a point. If he had stayed at court, that wouldn't have happened

To me Cregan Stark seemed to be the guy who arrived at the party,was disgusted by what happened there and decided to leave as soon as he can. This would imply he tought he doesn't belong among southerners and their infectuous life. That seems to had been the attitude the Starks and the North had during the entire Targaryen rule, exxept for a few occasions. I think Cregan Stark had a bif load of this, but on the same page was a bit like lord as Rickard Stark with his southron ambitions. 

However, I don't think this was a great thing. Cregan Stark tough he is riding the taller horse (meaning he tough of himself as the better man amongst southerners), and got back to Winterfell when he could. Not the right attitude, once you're in the game, if you ask me. Id someone is resposible for Unwin Peake's rise, he is. He could've done much better than that, and had the choice (not chance, but a choice) to make the first years of Aegon's reign good ones instead of what it became. He was a capable man after all, he should've known such a power vacuum he leaves behind likely attracts opportunistic people, as it just did. And we know how that ended. 

[Daeron the Daring]

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Regardless Aegon showed he is less cruel than his half- sister, through multitude of her acts alone.

Bring me one example, please, and not that he didn't kill Aegon. The guy was not groomed to rule (which is a dumb move, considering Alicent was thinking of taking the throne for his son waaay before Viserys' death) , so he never was good at it. Even when the war is ended, he is interested in two things: Getting rid of Rhaenyra's line and finding a new wife for himself to have children. While the enemy was knocking at their door. He did not realise he might not live to see the next day (not because Larys Strong and Corlys who poisoned him but because the army that was marching towards him), because he couldn't think of anything else than winning against his sister, (who's place by now was taken by Aegon) meaning he has to make an heir of his own, so that he can get rid of the weight that his nephew inheriting put on him.