Blacks or Greens?

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I guess people just assume it ended with the death of Alys and his son, otherwise we'd know. But that might not be the case. But then why kwe know so little about all of it. This goes for Maegor as well, son of Aerion. 

Of course it will, eventually, end with the deaths of Alys and her son. It is a history book, and they are clearly no longer alive during the main series ;-).

Unlike with Aerion's Maegor - who could have died as a child or led an uneventful life in complete obscurity - we do know that Alys and her son actually entered the political arena big time. They want the Iron Throne and they will, presumably, eventually challenge Aegon III.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys

We don't know if the child Alys claimed was Aemond's actually is. All her other children were stillborn after all. In fact, its rather suspicious that Gyldayn refused to describe the boy's appearance...

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course it will, eventually, end with the deaths of Alys and her son. It is a history book, and they are clearly no longer alive during the main series ;-).

Unlike with Aerion's Maegor - who could have died as a child or led an uneventful life in complete obscurity - we do know that Alys and her son actually entered the political arena big time. They want the Iron Throne and they will, presumably, eventually challenge Aegon III.

What I meant is that either Alys Rivers dies so early that the boy might never know who he is, or he himself dies so early in his life that he won't have children to carry on his 'legacy'. That seems rather likely, considering the fact that the Iron Throne was already dealing with it at the end of FnB. But the thing is, be it anyway, the whole incident will have no impact on our current story, that's where the lack of interest comes from, probably. The same goes for Maegor, altough this is not so far behind that it could not possibly ha s any impact on the story. But still, it won't happen. Why would, after all, George set loose such wild cards with no further intentions. 

[Eltharion21]

On 9/10/2021 at 10:10 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

Now, excuse me what the fuck? Torture? Aegon II was never tortured. He was kind of crippled/maimed in a dragonbattle! Poor dragonriders, what a torture it must have been for them to kill the ones they wanted dead with dragons. Your interpretation is very....interesting.

They are not tortured same in literal sense, Tyland Lannister has more similar parallel - who was disfigured by Rhaenyra's torturers to discover location of royal treasury. 

Result of their actions and decisions, has similar outcome physically devastated young man  - a ruin.

On 9/10/2021 at 10:10 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

And now we're talking about injuries. So far I couldn't find any moment in the books Theon was phisically so disabled he couldn't walk. He lost his penis and fingers (and his mental health was pretty ruined as well). No limbs/bones broken. But I guess that makes a perfect parallel? 

First of all  if you try to behave like a stickler it is "physically" not "phisically".

Both have various injuries, through different causes - but both have suggested injuries to their reproductive organs, both person with promiscuous  behavior unable to enjoy that.

Theon hobbles like an old men through loss of several toes, and nowhere it says Aegon II couldn't walk just that he wanted to recover and didn't want to have his legs amputated he was starting to recover later as stated in material - something you don't seem to observe in detail:

Quote

Aegon suffered from burns that covered half his body, a broken hip, and numerous broken ribs. His armor had melted into his left arm, and it would take him a year to recover, his mind clouded by milk of the poppy, causing him to sleep nine hours out of every ten.The burns he’d suffered at Rook’s Rest had left scars that covered half his body. Mushroom says they had rendered him impotent as well. Nor could he walk. His leap from Sunfyre’s back at Dragonstone had broken his right leg in two places, and shattered the bones in his left. The right had healed well, Grand Maester Orwyle records; not so the left. The muscles of that leg had atrophied, the knee stiffening, the flesh melting away until only a withered stick remained, so twisted that Orwyle thought His Grace might do better were it cut away entirely. The king would not hear of it, however. Instead he was carried hither and yon by litter. Only toward the end did he regain the strength to walk with the aid of a crutch, dragging his bad leg behind him.

 

On 9/10/2021 at 10:10 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

Which is a thing you can build your parallel up on. But this doesn't really narrow down the circle does it? (I also tought we discussed this earlier, but throwing the same thing into the discussion provides progress according to you).

Offer to take the black in pivotal moment, after being in rulership of the city where character threatened or tried to kill children to protect their rules, which they both refuse after genuine consideration is very reminiscent  -and there are NONE in the novel that compare.

What it narrows the circle is multiple comparisons held in two different characters, and not separating them and trying to dissect them just because somebody's fan canon is offended.

On 9/10/2021 at 10:10 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

Not sure what you want to accomplish with accusing (???) me of being an asshole. It doesn't benefit our conversation, but describes you instead.

Also, I might be a douche myself, but so far I didn't give you a reason to assume that, so f**k off.(sry)

 Likewise. 

On 9/10/2021 at 10:10 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

 Dude, there is no parallel. 

Parallels are always there with eyes to see them and open mind to acknowledge them.

On 9/10/2021 at 10:10 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

I don't remember comparing Aegon II to Joffrey. They're not even similar. Except for both being hardcore mofos. That doesn't make them parallels, especially since Joffrey was a mentally ruined, insane guy, whereas Aegon wasn't. But still, I could find more similarities between him and Aegon than you present and wouldn't call it a parallel like you do it with Theon. 

There is expression that everything you say before "but" doesn't count.

Joffrey is often compared to Aemond or Aegon , which is superficial comparison to say the least. Tv show also incited it by having Joffrey happy seen talking about Rhaenyra getting munched by his dragon.

But also same actor, though in different tone narrating the same event in Season 5 lore.

Joffrey wasn't insane.

On 9/10/2021 at 10:10 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

I actually can accept that you disagree with me here, but that doesn't make him any closer to Aegon. Even if he dies, he died having progress. In case he dies, he'll die being sorry for what he did, and while trying to do the best since he got out of the deepest den of his mental darkness. A broken soul, he is, unlike Aegon. 

Oh really how fortunate,  one of Daeron the Daring boy pretenders agrees.

Aegon was also broken soul, and there was chance for him to make progress until the very end - like he was given chance to surrender and take the black, yet under influence of his mother - and maybe threat toward what remained to his family -  Princess Jaehaera, refused.

There is lot of dark in Theon yet.

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He wanted to hit her, to smash that mocking smile off her face. He wanted to kiss her, to fuck her right there on the table and make her cry his name. But he knew he dare not touch her, in anger or in lust. Reek, Reek, my name is Reek. I must not forget my name. He jerked to his feet and made his way wordlessly to the doors, limping on his maimed feet. - A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak

Any small progress he made due to Ramsey's torment isn't enough to wash all the blood and treason. Maybe in fires of R'hllor he will find penance for his sins.

On 9/10/2021 at 10:10 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

He shows restraint because he is a careless drunkard, who also happens to hate his halfsister. (and that is the reason he is willing to take the throne). 

You mean the family he doesn't give a damn about? He clearly gave a damn about the death of his brothers, sisterwife (whom he cheated daily, and she hated him, even if he didn't hate her) AND sons. We never saw him mourn after any of them, nor does he seem to be mentally affected like Rhaenyra. And that just makes him even more different  from Theon. 

You want to see a caring parent? Look at Helaena, who goes nuts after the death of his sons. And I mean nuts. Where is Aegon to that? Nowhere. No mourning, just thinking about remarrying so that he stop his nephew from succeding him on the throne. 

Probably no sons of Alicent were actually affected by the death of their brothers. Aegon wasn't because he was the man I described before, Aemond wasn't because he was even worse, and his brother's injury and supposed death make him king in all but name. Daeron wasn't because he was nowhere as bad (if one wants to call him bad) as his brothers (meaning his feelings towards them might not have been that simpathetic towards them), and he was squiring at Oldtown since age 10. He is a sensible guy, it seems (tho that might be due to his young age), but he is really furious about Maelor's death, who happened to be a little child, not grown terrible persons like his brothers. 

Aegon shows restraint, and capability to be influenced by his advisors, for good or ill, despite heavy grievances and emotional distress.

You clearly haven't read the novel in detail, or have comprehension issues - there are various ways of sadness, depression and coping with the loss:

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On the ninth day of the twelfth moon of 130 AC, the magnificent golden dragon that had been King Aegon’s glory died in the outer yard of Dragonstone where he had fallen. His Grace wept, and gave orders that his cousin Lady Baela be brought up from the dungeons and put to death. Only when her head was on the block did he repent, when his maester reminded him that the girl’s mother had been a Velaryon, the Sea Snake’s own daughter.

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Though Blood and Cheese had spared her life, Queen Helaena cannot be said to have survived that fateful dusk. Afterward she would not eat, nor bathe, nor leave her chambers, and she could no longer stand to look upon her son Maelor, knowing that she had named him to die. The king had no recourse but to take the boy from her and give him over to their mother, the Dowager Queen Alicent, to raise as if he were her own. Aegon and his wife slept separately thereafter, and Queen Helaena sank deeper and deeper into madness, whilst the king raged, and drank, and raged.

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During this time King Aegon II also commanded that the Dragonpit be restored and rebuilt, commissioned two huge statues of his brothers Aemond and Daeron (he decreed they should be larger than the Titan of Braavos, and covered in gold leaf.

Nothing says I love you than wanting to make two golden statues of his brothers- larger than Titan of Braavos, not quite smart but lovable nonetheless.

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

16 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Result of their actions and decisions, has similar outcome physically devastated young man  - a ruin.

 

It's still not torture, so don't call it that. What he went through and what Theon went through are two different things. 

16 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Aegon shows restraint, and capability to be influenced by his advisors, for good or ill, despite heavy grievances and emotional distress.

 

I thought you said he was a ruin? @Daeron the Daring, are ruins (i.e. Theon) capable of making many good decisions, that Aegon II would need to make to stay king? 

16 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Parallels are always there with eyes to see them and open mind to acknowledge them.

 

Or if you're scrambling for a bit of evidence and will accept the weakest things. 

16 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Offer to take the black in pivotal moment, after being in rulership of the city where character threatened or tried to kill children to protect their rules, which they both refuse after genuine consideration is very reminiscent  -and there are NONE in the novel that compare.

 

Read the book. Theon was about to accept. Here. Theon can't say he's going to take the black, because he was distracted. Aegon, however i perfectly capable of and has plenty of time to do so. 

Quote

A brother of the Night's Watch. It meant no crown, no sons, no wife . . . but it meant life, and life with honor. Ned Stark's own brother had chosen the Watch, and Jon Snow as well.

I have black garb aplenty, once I tear the krakens off. Even my horse is black. I could rise high in the Watch—chief of rangers, likely even Lord Commander. Let Asha keep the bloody islands, they're as dreary as she is. If I served at Eastwatch, I could command my own ship, and there's fine hunting beyond the Wall. As for women, what wildling woman wouldn't want a prince in her bed? A slow smile crept across his face. A black cloak can't be turned. I'd be as good as any man . . .

"PRINCE THEON!" The sudden shout shattered his daydream. Kromm was loping across the ward. "The northmen—"

 

[Daeron the Daring]

8 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I thought you said he was a ruin? @Daeron the Daring, are ruins (i.e. Theon) capable of making many good decisions, that Aegon II would need to make to stay king? 

Let it go. It's not worth the effort. (But yes) 

[BlackLightning]

I'm going to have to go with the Blacks.

For multiple reasons, none of which have anything to do with my username lol

On 9/16/2021 at 5:22 AM, Lord Varys said:

I really think Alys Rivers and her son get too little attention in the fandom so far. Nobody - me included - thought the child we knew about since TPatQ could become a pretender to the throne ... but that's what happened. Nobody thought she might effectively become the new Lady of Harrenhal but that's what happened. And nobody seems to care much about what she and her son might do later during the reign of Aegon III. There is even a subtle hint that insofar as history is concerned, Aemond Targaryen and Alys Rivers were actually married: Gyldayn numbers Alys Rivers among the widows taking over for their husbands after the Dance.

That is very odd. I think it is pretty clear that she and her son will cause much grief to the Realm and the royal family, triggering a conflict which might result in the death of the last healthy dragons and perhaps even the deaths of Baela and Rhaena. If there are more dragonriders after Rhaena - possible in light of the fact that Silverwing and the Cannibal are still around - then Baela is the best candidate considering her bravery and determination (the only other candidate that makes sense would be Viserys, but Aegon III might not allow him to mount a dragon).

To defeat Alys' son - assuming he already has a dragon which certainly is possible if Vhagar left some eggs - Aegon III would need dragonriders of his own.

Also, the fact that Alys and her son are at Harrenhal is also very significant. Harrenhal and its curse greatly affected the Targaryens and their dragons, specifically, but also the Realm at large. We have Balerion destroying Harrenhal, we have Maegor taking a daughter of Harrenhal as a second wife (which causes the entire Faith Militant Uprising), we have Aegon the Uncrowned and Quicksilver dying close to Harrenhal, we have Rhaena living a rather miserable life at Harrenhal, we have a Great Council at Harrenhal which effectively may have cursed the royal family and the entire Realm, sowing the seeds for the Dance (something that's repeated with the Tourney of Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring), then we have all the Dance stuff at Harrenhal - the slaughtering of the Strongs, the split between Aemond and Criston Cole, the Battle Above the Gods Eye.

It only seems fitting to assume that the last piece of major dragon action will also take place at Harrenhal - just as the first piece effectively did. Balerion was first fully unleashed at Harrenhal.

I really appreciate this post.

I, for one, didn't know that Aemond and Alys were married. How did I miss that? Alys Rivers wasn't simply Alys Rivers anymore...she was Alys Targaryen. Their son was not a bastard, he was a legitimate Targaryen.

I notice she is a Rivers. Was Lady Alys highborn?

 

The thing here with Lady Alys and her son and the coming conflict between the Targaryens of Harrenhal and the rest of the realm is that Aegon III is still called the Dragonbane and the dragons went extinct in his name. If you know the meaning of the word "bane" and what it means to combine the word "bane" with a different word, then you know that to be referred as the Dragonbane is not a compliment.

What happened? Did Aegon III make some kind of fatal error that not only doomed all the remaining dragosn but his own kin?

[Daeron the Daring]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

really appreciate this post.

I, for one, didn't know that Aemond and Alys were married. How did I miss that? Alys Rivers wasn't simply Alys Rivers anymore...she was Alys Targaryen. Their son was not a bastard, he was a legitimate Targaryen.

I notice she is a Rivers. Was Lady Alys highborn?

She was a bastard, his father was a Strong. I dony't know exactly if she was a sister or a cousin to Ser Harwin and Larys Clubfoot, but I'd go with the cousin. 

 

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The thing here with Lady Alys and her son and the coming conflict between the Targaryens of Harrenhal and the rest of the realm is that Aegon III is still called the Dragonbane and the dragons went extinct in his name. If you know the meaning of the word "bane" and what it means to combine the word "bane" with a different word, then you know that to be referred as the Dragonbane is not a compliment.

What happened? Did Aegon III make some kind of fatal error that not only doomed all the remaining dragosn but his own kin?

Alys' son is too young to ride a dragon. He might have one, but an infant can't really ride a hatchling. On why Aegon was thr Dragonbane is yet to be revealed. He is said to have hated dragons after Sunfyre ate his mother, but it is yet to be revealed how Silverwing died (a wild dragon around the age of 100), where  the Cannibal went, and what happened to Sheepstealer or when did he die. Also don't really understand why noone ever claimed Silverwing, be it Baela or Viserys (who both loved dragons). We also don't knoe hoe Morning died. Rather important things that were never mentioned in TWOIAF. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Alys' son is too young to ride a dragon. He might have one, but an infant can't really ride a hatchling. On why Aegon was thr Dragonbane is yet to be revealed. He is said to have hated dragons after Sunfyre ate his mother, but it is yet to be revealed how Silverwing died (a wild dragon around the age of 100), where  the Cannibal went, and what happened to Sheepstealer or when did he die. Also don't really understand why noone ever claimed Silverwing, be it Baela or Viserys (who both loved dragons). We also don't knoe hoe Morning died. Rather important things that were never mentioned in TWOIAF. 

Maybe Alys uses magic to ride the dragon against Rhaena and both dragons are killed? 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I, for one, didn't know that Aemond and Alys were married. How did I miss that? Alys Rivers wasn't simply Alys Rivers anymore...she was Alys Targaryen. Their son was not a bastard, he was a legitimate Targaryen.

 

They're supposedly married. Do you want to trust some old witch? I might be willing to believe the child is Aemond's, not the marriage. 

[BlackLightning]

17 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

She was a bastard, his father was a Strong. I dony't know exactly if she was a sister or a cousin to Ser Harwin and Larys Clubfoot, but I'd go with the cousin. 

 

Gee, the more that time passes, the more Catelyn's distrust of Jon makes sense.

17 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Alys' son is too young to ride a dragon. He might have one, but an infant can't really ride a hatchling. On why Aegon was thr Dragonbane is yet to be revealed. He is said to have hated dragons after Sunfyre ate his mother, but it is yet to be revealed how Silverwing died (a wild dragon around the age of 100), where  the Cannibal went, and what happened to Sheepstealer or when did he die. Also don't really understand why noone ever claimed Silverwing, be it Baela or Viserys (who both loved dragons). We also don't knoe hoe Morning died. Rather important things that were never mentioned in TWOIAF. 

I expect this stuff will be revealed in the next Fire and Blood tome. When Fire and Blood ends, Aegon III is now of age and his reign has only truly begun.

All the dragons go extinct in his reign so something happens.

But I don't think that you can say that Alys' son is too young to ride a dragon. Alys' son would not be that much younger than Aegon and the two of them went unmolested throughout the Regency.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Gee, the more that time passes, the more Catelyn's distrust of Jon makes sense.

It made sense in a way, yes. Not that much given Jon's characteristics and relationships with his brothers, but surely. 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

All the dragons go extinct in his reign so something happens

I don't think the relationship would've been that good between the brothers if Aegon III was directly responsible for the dragon's death. Or at least not publicly. 

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

But I don't think that you can say that Alys' son is too young to ride a dragon. Alys' son would not be that much younger than Aegon and the two of them went unmolested throughout the Regency.

Alys was pregnant when the Dance ended. Her son might have been born by Cregan's time in office. That doesn't make him old enough to ride a dragon, I think. I see her mother becoming more of a threat than the little boy, but who knows. Interesting enough that noone remembers him, altough it seems to be s rather intriguing and exceptional occasion. 

[BlackLightning]

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Alys was pregnant when the Dance ended. Her son might have been born by Cregan's time in office. That doesn't make him old enough to ride a dragon, I think. I see her mother becoming more of a threat than the little boy, but who knows. Interesting enough that noone remembers him, altough it seems to be s rather intriguing and exceptional occasion. 

I guess we'll just have to see. Are we sure that she only has one child?

Can we talk about how horrible the Baratheons during the Dance were?

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Can we talk about how horrible the Baratheons during the Dance were?

 

Borros I interpret as a bandwagon man. And trying to save his men till the end, where they'll be more valuable. 

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

13 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Borros I interpret as a bandwagon man. And trying to save his men till the end, where they'll be more valuable. 

He only marshaled like an eighth of his strength to support his king, didn’t protect a person who had guest right from dying, sentenced and killed a 13 year old boy, lost to a bunch of women and boys because he only took 8000 troops against  13,000 troops and died to a morningstar. 

[BlackLightning]

13 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Borros I interpret as a bandwagon man. And trying to save his men till the end, where they'll be more valuable. 

I feel like he treated Lucerys poorly and encouraged Aemond's worst impulses...all for what? A royal marriage? In the end, Aemond abandoned one of the Baratheon girls for Alys Rivers, a witchcraft-practicing Strong bastard--which is...hilarious

What about his daughters? Mainly Maris and Cassandra.

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

51 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

What about his daughters? Mainly Maris and Cassandra.

 

Cassandra's like a Baratheon version Cersei in that she thinks she should be queen. Maris seems like she was just trying to make Aemond angry. Don't like many Baratheons, TBH. Maegor should've slaughtered them. They've been nothing but a pain in the butt for the Targaryens. 

[Eternally_Theirs]

Well, personally, I wouldn't choose either. To quote Shireen: 'I wouldn't have chosen either. It's all the choosing sides that made everything so horrible.'

But if I were forced to choose at a swordpoint, the Blacks. Women are smarter than men, after all.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

For me that question depends on 2 thing, status and geography. If Im anything other then a Lord I would simply follow my liege, but Im assuming that question is asked has if we were lords.

And that is where geography comes into play, no sense of being a greens supporter if your are a Northern or Valemen lord since those region were united behind the blacks and being the one outlier is never a good idea. Kind of the same for the Westerlands but for the greens, a bit more wiggle room if you're lands are on the edge of the region but not exactly easy to pull off.

In the end it would depend on family, friends and neighbours choises since for me both claim are equal, Rhaenyra is the chosen heir and groomed to be, her first 3 sons are most likely bastards but her last 2 have Targaryen blood on both sides. Aegon has tradition and the great council for him. Both are not great or horrible (at least before the music started and Dragon danced). Not joining side or adopting the the Swann tactic of sending sons to both side would be the best choice for me but both are also dangerous.

[C.T. Phipps]

I'm a Black but I also note that the legalities of this are all over the place.

The Greens have a legitimate claim that J's Great Council made the matter of succession settled law in the same way that any other legal precedent (and arguably more binding) than an actual charter. It formalized the matter of succession and codified what was already established precedent and tradition in the kingdom. Given that the last brother-inheritance was Maegor the Cruel and he was considered a usurper by no less than J himself, retroactively rendered null and void, it seems pretty clear Daemon isn't in the running either.

However, Viserys called the lords to make their oaths and made it clear he was passing her over. Certainly, disinheriting Aegon II was also within his power so the question if he can reorder the secession by royal command is an issue. The question is does personal swearing trump the legality of a Great Council? Many of those Green lords correctly pointed out that they had never sworn to recognize Rhaenyra as their Queen.

So much precedent and legality is determined by the mood of the time after all and undermining it can destroy everything.

[kingDaemonI]

The issue with the whole gender debate is, Rhaenyra isn't the rightful heir to Jaehaerys I and Aegon I under Dornish law/absolute primogeniture either.  With absolute primogeniture the throne goes Aemon-Rhaenys-Laena(she's the older one)-Baela.  With agnatic primogeniture (nieces over uncles), it goes Aemon-Rhaenys-Laenor-Laena-Baela.  At least the greens are correct under one system of primogeniture (absolute male primogeniture).  Rhaenyra is neither the most senior claimant nor the most senior male claimant.  

In the end of the day, the doctrine of exceptionalism enables targaryens to easily stop any succession crises.  If Aemon turned down Rhaenys's request to marry corlys and betrothed her to Viserys earlier on instead, this whole crisis would be averted.  It would be a better match as viserys is only 2 years younger than her while corlys is 38 and she is 16.  It also prevents the dance by uniting the two branches of house targaryen.  As for the idea that aemon thought he would still have a boy, he was 35 and Jocelyn was 36--it is unrealistic to rely on having another kid at that age.