Dragons Impress

[Orion2]

oh @Rondo

[Springwatch]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But this is clearly not the case. Two of the dragonriding children of Jaehaerys I - Aemon and Alyssa - claimed dragons that had previously not been ridden before. And Caraxes and Meleys both were dragons who had no contact with either Aemon or Alyssa before they were claimed by their riders when they were in their mid-teens.

And earlier Aenys and Rhaena were given hatchlings which hadn't been handled by Targaryens before. Also, when Jaehaerys' daughter Daenerys is dying he calls on other people to give his daughter a dragon. He doesn't care for them, personally, nor do other (nonexisting) Targaryens this for him.

But I'm not saying all dragons respond the same, at any age. What interests me is the idea that younger dragons are more 'impressionable' which seems very probable. Targs seem to feel it's safe to offer eggs and hatchlings to quite young children (irrc).

Aemon had a dragon egg in his cradle, but it's not clear if it was Caraxes. As you say, they bonded fully later on. Again, we don't know the details of how difficult the process was - it could have been completely smooth, or as wild as Drogon. Maybe spells and horns were involved. We don't know.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Daenerys is a very special case since her eggs had turned to stone ... meaning they were technically no longer viable. Her connection with the eggs was really magical and beyond anything that happened before (to our knowledge). In a sense Dany's spell revives dead fossils.

Also, as I said, Drogon nearly killed Daenerys. She did claim him, but it was a close thing, never mind that Dany handled his egg or even brought him to life.

Dany's eggs are a special case, I agree. Though I'd guess 'live' eggs to be even more communicative. I'd also say that dragons are intrinsically magical, even if the maesters mostly describe them like horses. (And imho, it was Mirri's blood magic that revived the fossil eggs.)

Dany has little dragon lore, which might explain the rough treatment from Drogon. But the way she neglects her young dragons (from lack of time), does seem in parallel with earlier Targs: she puts them in a pit and chains them. No chance of stableboys bonding with Viserion and Rhaegal.

[Treason's in Season]

20 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

But I'm not saying all dragons respond the same, at any age. What interests me is the idea that younger dragons are more 'impressionable' which seems very probable. Targs seem to feel it's safe to offer eggs and hatchlings to quite young children (irrc).

To be fair, they have a decent track record of getting dragon hatchlings to attach themselves to Targ lil'uns. Before they died out, a Targaryen who couldn't tame a dragon probably seemed something like a blonde Baratheon: fishy. Or, to quote the cool kids, "hella sus".

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But I'm not saying all dragons respond the same, at any age. What interests me is the idea that younger dragons are more 'impressionable' which seems very probable. Targs seem to feel it's safe to offer eggs and hatchlings to quite young children (irrc).

That is not necessarily odd or special in a series where a guy entrust a bunch of very dangerous direwolf pups to the care of preteen children. Nobody thinks Eddard Stark tries to kill his children the 'direwolf way', so it doesn't seem to be *that* special that young children get to handle dangerous animals. After all, Ned had no clue that his children were all skinchangers.

What is clear is that the bond established between a Targaryen and a hatchling inevitably allowed the Targaryen in question to eventually mount said dragon. We have that with Aenys, Rhaena, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Laenor, and the descendants of Viserys I and Daemon.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Aemon had a dragon egg in his cradle, but it's not clear if it was Caraxes. As you say, they bonded fully later on. Again, we don't know the details of how difficult the process was - it could have been completely smooth, or as wild as Drogon. Maybe spells and horns were involved. We don't know.

We actually can assume Caraxes didn't come from Aemon's egg since Aemon picked a dragon from the young dragons in the Dragonpit. If he had mounted his egg dragon it should and would have been mentioned.

And we do know how Aemon, Baelon, and Alyssa mounted their dragons - they went to the Dragonpit, picked a dragon, and mounted him. That is all. This is how the lasting bond between dragon and rider is formed. The Targaryens in Westeros never used magic for that kind of thing.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Dany's eggs are a special case, I agree. Though I'd guess 'live' eggs to be even more communicative. I'd also say that dragons are intrinsically magical, even if the maesters mostly describe them like horses. (And imho, it was Mirri's blood magic that revived the fossil eggs.)

The impression we have is that future riders do not exactly bond with dragon eggs but the hatchlings from those eggs if they hatch. It became cool and meaningful if a cradle egg hatched after given to an infant royal child ... just as it was uncool and ominous if it didn't hatch. But before this was a customary thing young princes and princesses where just given hatchlings and things went exactly in the same manner.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Dany has little dragon lore, which might explain the rough treatment from Drogon. But the way she neglects her young dragons (from lack of time), does seem in parallel with earlier Targs: she puts them in a pit and chains them. No chance of stableboys bonding with Viserion and Rhaegal.

Irri and Jhiqui could have bonded with Viserion and Rhaegal before they were chained. And even after the chaining there would have been servants who fed the dragons each day, etc. People who could have been able to win the trust of the dragons much better than Daenerys or Quentyn ever could, considering those folks would be the ones feeding the dragons - meaning they would be people the dragons are dependent on and associate with something good happening to them. Dany would be just a rare visitor.

If you look at the history of the Targaryen dragons then quite a few dragons were riderless for years and decades - this would have been the ideal time and opportunity for Dragonkeepers and other folks who were around the dragons 24/7 to claim them.

The fact that this never happened proves that the Targaryens are really special people. I mean, George could have easily enough made one or some of the dragonseed dragonriders Dragonkeepers or servants/grooms who were working very closely with the dragons. But none of them are. Ulf, Hugh, Nettles, and Addam of Hull all had no previous close relations with the dragons they claimed.

[Springwatch]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not necessarily odd or special in a series where a guy entrust a bunch of very dangerous direwolf pups to the care of preteen children. Nobody thinks Eddard Stark tries to kill his children the 'direwolf way', so it doesn't seem to be *that* special that young children get to handle dangerous animals. After all, Ned had no clue that his children were all skinchangers.

Ned's thinking is more than a bit special; he's crazy like a Targ (too many instances to mention). It's a good comparison to bring up.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What is clear is that the bond established between a Targaryen and a hatchling inevitably allowed the Targaryen in question to eventually mount said dragon. We have that with Aenys, Rhaena, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Laenor, and the descendants of Viserys I and Daemon.

We actually can assume Caraxes didn't come from Aemon's egg since Aemon picked a dragon from the young dragons in the Dragonpit. If he had mounted his egg dragon it should and would have been mentioned.

Should have been mentioned - I agree! But I'm not expecting any of the conventionalities in these books.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And we do know how Aemon, Baelon, and Alyssa mounted their dragons - they went to the Dragonpit, picked a dragon, and mounted him. That is all. This is how the lasting bond between dragon and rider is formed. The Targaryens in Westeros never used magic for that kind of thing.

I wish we knew. The stories make it sound like they picked a dragon like it was a horse ready to ride, but it can't be like that - it's so unlike the dragons we do know. And I'm going to guess we don't know why Aemon picked Caraxes - could have been for his size and ferocity, could have been he wanted his egg dragon.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The impression we have is that future riders do not exactly bond with dragon eggs but the hatchlings from those eggs if they hatch. It became cool and meaningful if a cradle egg hatched after given to an infant royal child ... just as it was uncool and ominous if it didn't hatch. But before this was a customary thing young princes and princesses where just given hatchlings and things went exactly in the same manner.

Yes.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Irri and Jhiqui could have bonded with Viserion and Rhaegal before they were chained. And even after the chaining there would have been servants who fed the dragons each day, etc. People who could have been able to win the trust of the dragons much better than Daenerys or Quentyn ever could, considering those folks would be the ones feeding the dragons - meaning they would be people the dragons are dependent on and associate with something good happening to them. Dany would be just a rare visitor.

We don't see Irri and Jhiqui tending or feeding the dragons, only Dany, who liked doing it, and tried to keep a dragon with her on rotation. Effectively, she kept the dragons' focus on herself, so we never saw an Irri/Jhiqui experiment. As the dragons grew bigger, they started feeding themselves, and in the pit - we've seen what the pit was like: the dragons were angry and dangerous; no-one joined them in the pit, not even Dany.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you look at the history of the Targaryen dragons then quite a few dragons were riderless for years and decades - this would have been the ideal time and opportunity for Dragonkeepers and other folks who were around the dragons 24/7 to claim them.

Yes. But we need to know more about how dragons were cared for. Close up, or from a distance?

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that this never happened proves that the Targaryens are really special people. I mean, George could have easily enough made one or some of the dragonseed dragonriders Dragonkeepers or servants/grooms who were working very closely with the dragons. But none of them are. Ulf, Hugh, Nettles, and Addam of Hull all had no previous close relations with the dragons they claimed.

Targs are special people. The non-Targ riders must also be special - (or how do you talk to a dragon?) - but that could be from Targ genes or somewhere else.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Should have been mentioned - I agree! But I'm not expecting any of the conventionalities in these books.

Well, it seems as if George originally wanted to go with Queen Rhaena inventing the 'cradle eggs tradition' only to later realize when he was dealing with Jaehaerys I's children that he didn't have enough dragons left for all nine children of Jaehaerys I - not to mention that one, Baelon, claimed one of the older dragons who had been ridden before. That wouldn't have happened if Baelon had been given a dragon egg that hatched in his childhood.

It could have worked better if Balerion had had another rider between Aerea and Viserys I, and if Dreamfyre had been claimed by a princess between Rhaena and Helaena.

As things stand now the first Targaryens whose cradle eggs are confirmed are the children of Rhaenyra and Daemon. Laenor and Rhaenyra both may have been given hatchlings. And funnily enough, all four grandchildren of Jaehaerys I were given neither dragon eggs nor hatchlings considering that Rhaenys, Viserys I, and Daemon all claimed dragons that had been ridden before.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I wish we knew. The stories make it sound like they picked a dragon like it was a horse ready to ride, but it can't be like that - it's so unlike the dragons we do know. And I'm going to guess we don't know why Aemon picked Caraxes - could have been for his size and ferocity, could have been he wanted his egg dragon.

But it really just is like mounting a horse. You mount a dragon for the first time as a Targaryen and this establishes a lifelong bond. There is nothing more it than that. And you see that in FaB in detail with Aemond claiming Vhagar or the dragonseeds claiming their dragons ... as well as in ADwD when Daenerys claims Drogon.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

We don't see Irri and Jhiqui tending or feeding the dragons, only Dany, who liked doing it, and tried to keep a dragon with her on rotation. Effectively, she kept the dragons' focus on herself, so we never saw an Irri/Jhiqui experiment. As the dragons grew bigger, they started feeding themselves, and in the pit - we've seen what the pit was like: the dragons were angry and dangerous; no-one joined them in the pit, not even Dany.

They did care for the dragons the same way Dany did - and it is noted that it is odd when the dragons snap at the Dothraki girls but not at Daenerys.

Also, it is kind of obvious where the two other dragons would be while Dany spend time with the third - with Irri and Jhiqui.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Yes. But we need to know more about how dragons were cared for. Close up, or from a distance?

We know that the dragon Syrax was fed choice meat each day and had grown pretty docile and comfortable around humans because of that. Similarly, Silverwing was a very nice dragon. Jaehaerys and Alysanne kept both their dragons in the Red Keep throughout their reign, so they would have been very close to various people

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Targs are special people. The non-Targ riders must also be special - (or how do you talk to a dragon?) - but that could be from Targ genes or somewhere else.

So far we have no dragonrider who can be said to have had no Targaryen/dragonlord ancestry. All the dragonseed dragonriders come from Dragonstone or Driftmark, where Valyrian bloodlines have been strong for centuries.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

I mean dogs and humans sort of co-evolved long before humans started selectively breeding them. Domestication is genetic. Dogs are one of few species that understand what a human means when they point at something, and the relationship is akin to being in a pack together.  

Valyrians had a relationship with Dragons for at least 5000 years and probably longer than that based on realistic limitations of human archaeology and preserved written word.  

Valyrian heat resistance seems to be a genetic trait and not necessarily a magic trait.   So like dogs evolved around humans, Valerians evolved around dragons.  

The relationship does not necessarily need to be magical, and while magic might help them dominate the dragons, certain Genetic traits seemingly more prevalent in Valyrians do seem to be a reasonable explanation for certain dynamics in their relationships that make dragon riding possible.  

Dany described flying Drogon more as being driven by him with maybe some influence her own, and I may be wrong, but I don't remember any particulate mention of Targaryens themselves using Dragon horns to bind dragons to their will.

[Orion2]

Yeah thats true. Its odd, the Targaryens in Westros seem to have lost a lot of the knowledge of the Freehold

@Targaryeninkingslanding

[The Commentator]

On 5/16/2021 at 8:02 AM, Roswell said:

Daenerys Targaryen succeeded in hatching dragon eggs because it was her destiny to do so.  She is Azor Ahai.  The prophecy is explicit.  She will wake dragons from stone.  That is exactly what happened.  This miracle confirmed her identity as Azor Ahai. 

Yes. The ritual was not the most important piece to the puzzle.  It was Dany herself.  Rhaegar could sacrifice all the blood in Westeros and still fail to hatch an egg. Rhaegar was not the prince/princess who was promised. That person is Dany.  

[Kolx]

I think the answer lies in dragons being wild animals and not domesticated pets. I remember when I was young,  I used to live in my grandma’s house with my mom and my aunt, and the latter got a parrot, her ex boyfriend gave it to her as a gift. The parrot bonded only with my aunt, even when my grandmother was the one who fed it, the only person it showed a real connection was my aunt. I really don’t know what’s the logical explanation, perhaps the characteristics she had was something the little bird could relate and assimilate to? And that’s not to say the bird was hostile to us, it clearly was ok with us living in the same place and wouldn’t bite us, but it never was close to us as the way it was with my aunt. 
 

Now talking about the dragon in context of the world, maybe the valyrians learned to act like a dragon and this make the fire creatures feel related and welcome them as partners?  I think magic might have played a role, considering these dragons might be descendants of the dragon of the east?, but look how Dany tamed Drogon, clearly her actions played a big role.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Dragons Impress? No, dragons bond with those who have the necessary DNA and the right personality.  Dany's three dragons are different because they were not hatched naturally.  She hatched them herself and the bond was there from birth.  They were all bonded on Drogo's fire. 

[Orion2]

On 5/19/2021 at 7:45 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Yes. The ritual was not the most important piece to the puzzle.  It was Dany herself.  Rhaegar could sacrifice all the blood in Westeros and still fail to hatch an egg. Rhaegar was not the prince/princess who was promised. That person is Dany.  

how do ya know?? did he ever try? 

[Springwatch]

On 5/18/2021 at 9:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, it seems as if George originally wanted to go with Queen Rhaena inventing the 'cradle eggs tradition' only to later realize when he was dealing with Jaehaerys I's children that he didn't have enough dragons left for all nine children of Jaehaerys I - not to mention that one, Baelon, claimed one of the older dragons who had been ridden before. That wouldn't have happened if Baelon had been given a dragon egg that hatched in his childhood.

It could have worked better if Balerion had had another rider between Aerea and Viserys I, and if Dreamfyre had been claimed by a princess between Rhaena and Helaena.

As things stand now the first Targaryens whose cradle eggs are confirmed are the children of Rhaenyra and Daemon. Laenor and Rhaenyra both may have been given hatchlings. And funnily enough, all four grandchildren of Jaehaerys I were given neither dragon eggs nor hatchlings considering that Rhaenys, Viserys I, and Daemon all claimed dragons that had been ridden before.

But it really just is like mounting a horse. You mount a dragon for the first time as a Targaryen and this establishes a lifelong bond. There is nothing more it than that. And you see that in FaB in detail with Aemond claiming Vhagar or the dragonseeds claiming their dragons ... as well as in ADwD when Daenerys claims Drogon.

They did care for the dragons the same way Dany did - and it is noted that it is odd when the dragons snap at the Dothraki girls but not at Daenerys.

Also, it is kind of obvious where the two other dragons would be while Dany spend time with the third - with Irri and Jhiqui.

We know that the dragon Syrax was fed choice meat each day and had grown pretty docile and comfortable around humans because of that. Similarly, Silverwing was a very nice dragon. Jaehaerys and Alysanne kept both their dragons in the Red Keep throughout their reign, so they would have been very close to various people

So far we have no dragonrider who can be said to have had no Targaryen/dragonlord ancestry. All the dragonseed dragonriders come from Dragonstone or Driftmark, where Valyrian bloodlines have been strong for centuries.

I've seen bits of Fire and Blood; I haven't read it yet - but it seems to leave a lot of detail out, and that includes the claiming of a dragon.

The proof of the pudding is the mounting, without a doubt, but there's a critical period before which we see with both Dany and Quentyn, when the dragon decides what it's going to do. Whips seem to have a positive effect (confirming Valyrian practice) - they can't hurt a dragon, but might show the human as a fighter with claws, instead of prey. Also it seems holding eye contact is good, suppressing fear is good, feeding the dragon in advance is good.

Besides all that, there are different sorts of dragons: impressionable youngsters, untouched wildlings, ridden dragons, and 'widowed' dragons. Only the ridden dragons have a commitment to humanity (a commitment which may be fading in the 'widowed').

That got me thinking about the dragonpit system - the KL version that worked, and Dany's pyramid version that definitely didn't. KL had a wide open space that could allow the ridden dragons to mingle with the unridden youngsters and dominate them - maybe this way you don't get the wild rages of Viserion and Rhaegal. Another benefit is the youngsters are kept quiet without human interaction, so care at a distance is workable, and so no risk of bonding with a gifted stableboy. Another point in favour of 'care at a distance' is the role of Dragonkeeper - equipped with a sword, not a bucket and brush.

I'd guess Irri and Jhiqui are more like Dragonkeepers - responsible for keeping the dragonets safe, but not for training, or playing with them. We do see them handling the dragons occasionally, but usually struggling. And I wonder if Dany got the system wrong here, bonding with three baby dragons at once when maybe she should have at least two of them free from human influence until their riders were ready to claim them. As it is, Dany is like a beautiful teenager stringing along three admirers, until it all ends in a big, big fight.

[Orion2]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

That got me thinking about the dragonpit system - the KL version that worked, and Dany's pyramid version that definitely didn't.

Yeah it worked, but the dragons did get sick and die. If it had something to do with their confinement, as it appears that the pyramid affects the dragons negatively, and I think maybe someone says something about it or Dany thinks it, it would be interesting to see how the Valeryans kept their dragons without stunting them

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I've seen bits of Fire and Blood; I haven't read it yet - but it seems to leave a lot of detail out, and that includes the claiming of a dragon.

Actually, no. We get detailed descriptions of folks claiming certain dragons and we also get Targaryens explaining to their children how the process works. Aemond claiming Vhagar is described in considerable detail, and Rhaena explains to her daughter Aerea how the dragonrider thing works. We also learn how Jaehaerys I's children claimed their dragons and how Viserys I mounted Balerion.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The proof of the pudding is the mounting, without a doubt, but there's a critical period before which we see with both Dany and Quentyn, when the dragon decides what it's going to do. Whips seem to have a positive effect (confirming Valyrian practice) - they can't hurt a dragon, but might show the human as a fighter with claws, instead of prey. Also it seems holding eye contact is good, suppressing fear is good, feeding the dragon in advance is good.

That all has nothing to do with the actual dragon bond. It helps you to not get injured or killed by the dragon when you approach it, but it does nothing to establish a bond. As we see with Joffrey Velaryon a dragon like Syrax is familiar and friendly with the child of her rider often enough ... but that doesn't mean you can ride the dragon.

Aemond mounted Vhagar in a context where he basically had no contact with the dragon before. He just jumped on her back and that was it.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Besides all that, there are different sorts of dragons: impressionable youngsters, untouched wildlings, ridden dragons, and 'widowed' dragons. Only the ridden dragons have a commitment to humanity (a commitment which may be fading in the 'widowed').

Those differences might exist but they have nothing to do with the magical bond between dragon and rider which works on a different level.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

That got me thinking about the dragonpit system - the KL version that worked, and Dany's pyramid version that definitely didn't. KL had a wide open space that could allow the ridden dragons to mingle with the unridden youngsters and dominate them - maybe this way you don't get the wild rages of Viserion and Rhaegal. Another benefit is the youngsters are kept quiet without human interaction, so care at a distance is workable, and so no risk of bonding with a gifted stableboy. Another point in favour of 'care at a distance' is the role of Dragonkeeper - equipped with a sword, not a bucket and brush.

Nah, both in the Dragonpit and the dragon yards and dragon pits of Dragonstone servants would have been everywhere. We know dragons leave dragon droppings, so the Dragonpit would have to be cleaned regularly.  And it is quite clear from the stories of Jaehaerys' children that the Dragonkeepers and the other staff at the Dragonpit were more familiar with the dragons they were taking care of than the Targaryens who only showed up there to claim a dragon and then infrequently when they were taking out their mount out to fly.

The Dragonkeepers were even guarding the Dragonpit against Targaryens who didn't have royal permission to mount dragons.

We can assume that folks were rather wary around the big dragons ... but dragons like Caraxes and Meleys would have been fed and cared for from the hatchling stage till they were grown dragons by a set of servants. And that means the dragons would have been as familiar with those folks as they were with their (future) riders.

And even the dragons who bonded early with their future riders - Quicksilver and Syrax, say - wouldn't have been fed everyday by those royal people. Their servants would be doing that. Rhaenyra would have never personally fed or cleaned Syrax. That would have been beneath her. The same with Silverwing and Vermithor - the king and queen would have servants for that job, too.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'd guess Irri and Jhiqui are more like Dragonkeepers - responsible for keeping the dragonets safe, but not for training, or playing with them. We do see them handling the dragons occasionally, but usually struggling. And I wonder if Dany got the system wrong here, bonding with three baby dragons at once when maybe she should have at least two of them free from human influence until their riders were ready to claim them. As it is, Dany is like a beautiful teenager stringing along three admirers, until it all ends in a big, big fight.

Targaryens can hang out be liked by multiple dragons at once. They can just only ride one dragon at the same time.

56 minutes ago, Orion2 said:

Yeah it worked, but the dragons did get sick and die. If it had something to do with their confinement, as it appears that the pyramid affects the dragons negatively, and I think maybe someone says something about it or Dany thinks it, it would be interesting to see how the Valeryans kept their dragons without stunting them

So far we have no indication that the Dragonpit truly stunted the growth of the dragons. Balerion and Vhagar spent a lot of their later decades in the Dragonpit and they grew larger until (shortly) before their deaths.

Caraxes and Syrax would have also spent a lot of time in the Dragonpit - and Dreamfyre and Tessarion and Sunfyre, too - and they were all healthy and grew pretty big.

[Hug-hammer]

I think it's somewhere in between.
Even skinchangers have to gain the trust of the beast to facilitate the bonding. 
Some animals like dogs, because of their proximity to humans, are considered easier to control, than wolves, bears, lions, which are wild animals, whose control is a difficult or even perilous process.
bran notes for example that the ravens in the cave with bloodraven are more easily controlled by him than the wild ravens outside the cave, which are not used to being controlled.

The dragons work in this way.

[Springwatch]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, no. We get detailed descriptions of folks claiming certain dragons and we also get Targaryens explaining to their children how the process works. Aemond claiming Vhagar is described in considerable detail, and Rhaena explains to her daughter Aerea how the dragonrider thing works. We also learn how Jaehaerys I's children claimed their dragons and how Viserys I mounted Balerion.

I still find the histories more or less unreadable, so you'll just have to make do with my very partial knowledge. If you'd do me the favour of telling exactly what Rhaena explained to Aerea, I'd be very interested in that.

Still - histories are histories, but ASOIAF is live action. There is a gap between how the historical dragons are described, and the actual dragons we see, and we need to square that circle. For a start, a dragon that has had a rider already is likelier to accept a new one (by analogy with horses and skinchanging lore). But that still leaves the unridden dragons, and it is unbelievable that Targs would expose their princelings to the experiences of Dany and Quentyn.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That all has nothing to do with the actual dragon bond. It helps you to not get injured or killed by the dragon when you approach it, but it does nothing to establish a bond. As we see with Joffrey Velaryon a dragon like Syrax is familiar and friendly with the child of her rider often enough ... but that doesn't mean you can ride the dragon.

I notice Tessarion was bonded before being mounted. Presumably she was an impressionable youngster - like I'm saying: mounting a youngster is different to mounting a widowed dragon, is different to a wild dragon. Handling/caring for a rider's dragon is different again.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aemond mounted Vhagar in a context where he basically had no contact with the dragon before. He just jumped on her back and that was it.

Or so the histories say. Anyway, it's not entirely true to say he jumped on her back and that was it. Vhagar was a previously ridden dragon. There was conflict going on. Aemond showed courage and confidence. And it was noted as an unusual event.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Those differences might exist but they have nothing to do with the magical bond between dragon and rider which works on a different level.

The differences are pretty important. From the evidence so far, we have to believe hatchlings are more approachable. Dragons with a rider are more approachable (though obviously can't be ridden by anyone else).

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nah, both in the Dragonpit and the dragon yards and dragon pits of Dragonstone servants would have been everywhere. We know dragons leave dragon droppings, so the Dragonpit would have to be cleaned regularly.  And it is quite clear from the stories of Jaehaerys' children that the Dragonkeepers and the other staff at the Dragonpit were more familiar with the dragons they were taking care of than the Targaryens who only showed up there to claim a dragon and then infrequently when they were taking out their mount out to fly.

The Dragonkeepers were even guarding the Dragonpit against Targaryens who didn't have royal permission to mount dragons.

We can assume that folks were rather wary around the big dragons ... but dragons like Caraxes and Meleys would have been fed and cared for from the hatchling stage till they were grown dragons by a set of servants. And that means the dragons would have been as familiar with those folks as they were with their (future) riders.

And even the dragons who bonded early with their future riders - Quicksilver and Syrax, say - wouldn't have been fed everyday by those royal people. Their servants would be doing that. Rhaenyra would have never personally fed or cleaned Syrax. That would have been beneath her. The same with Silverwing and Vermithor - the king and queen would have servants for that job, too.

Targaryens can hang out be liked by multiple dragons at once. They can just only ride one dragon at the same time.

The only dragons we actually know as fact are Dany's three. They grew up surrounded by people. So why are they not tame and horse-like, like the Dragonpit dragons?

Even if we assume the histories are a bit inaccurate - maybe unridden dragons were cared for more like tigers than horses - there's still a huge, unexplained gap between the reality of Dany's dragonpit, and the histories of KL.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I still find the histories more or less unreadable, so you'll just have to make do with my very partial knowledge. If you'd do me the favour of telling exactly what Rhaena explained to Aerea, I'd be very interested in that.

I cannot quote directly right now, but the gist is that Rhaena tells Aerea she should hang out with the dragons, make one of them her own, so she can one day mount it and become a dragonrider.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Still - histories are histories, but ASOIAF is live action. There is a gap between how the historical dragons are described, and the actual dragons we see, and we need to square that circle. For a start, a dragon that has had a rider already is likelier to accept a new one (by analogy with horses and skinchanging lore). But that still leaves the unridden dragons, and it is unbelievable that Targs would expose their princelings to the experiences of Dany and Quentyn.

That is not actually the case - there are some previously ridden dragons - like Silverwing - who are more pliable than others. They seem to be definitely less dangerous than wild dragons, but it actually seems that young dragons are the least dangerous dragons, especially since it is said that folks bonding with hatchings at a very early - especially those hatched from the cradle eggs - will inevitably be mounted in the future.

Vhagar and Balerion seem to have been the most dangerous dragons in the 1nd and 2rd century, and they had a number of riders before.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I notice Tessarion was bonded before being mounted. Presumably she was an impressionable youngster - like I'm saying: mounting a youngster is different to mounting a widowed dragon, is different to a wild dragon. Handling/caring for a rider's dragon is different again.

I would draw the line between wild dragons and dragons who grew up around humans. I don't think it is very dangerous to first mount a dragon who grew up around humans all its life, especially not if the person doing the mounting was the prince or princess who bonded with the dragon when it was still a hatchling.

In part, because young dragons are definitely not as dangerous/deadly as older, larger dragons.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Or so the histories say. Anyway, it's not entirely true to say he jumped on her back and that was it. Vhagar was a previously ridden dragon. There was conflict going on. Aemond showed courage and confidence. And it was noted as an unusual event.

If you cut to the chase it was just jumping/climbing on the dragon's back. And what we know about all the other instances is that this was all it took for Rhaena and Aemon and Baelon and Alyssa and Viserys I and Rhaena - those are the folks were we get a somewhat detailed description of the mounting.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

The only dragons we actually know as fact are Dany's three. They grew up surrounded by people. So why are they not tame and horse-like, like the Dragonpit dragons?

The Dragonpit dragons also were not necessarily all that tame. We don't know much details about them. I guess the problems of Dany's dragons in Meereen was that they were accustomed to being free and then they were suddenly and inexplicably chained - something they did not like. The Targaryen dragons who were eventually housed in the Dragonpit were earlier kept at the Dragonstone yards and pits which we know nothing about, but chances are they were also chained there or kept in some kind of natural habitat they could not (all) exit of their own free will.

We would also have to consider that Rhaegal and Viserion are confronted with unknown humans when they kill Quentyn. Chances are that they were less aggressive with people they knew.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Even if we assume the histories are a bit inaccurate - maybe unridden dragons were cared for more like tigers than horses - there's still a huge, unexplained gap between the reality of Dany's dragonpit, and the histories of KL.

In the end, Dany mounting Drogon works exactly the same way like Dany's ancestors mounted their dragons. The only difference is that Dany doesn't have a saddle and a whip and is thus less capable directing Drogon.

[Orion2]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

So far we have no indication that the Dragonpit truly stunted the growth of the dragons. Balerion and Vhagar spent a lot of their later decades in the Dragonpit and they grew larger until (shortly) before their deaths.

Caraxes and Syrax would have also spent a lot of time in the Dragonpit - and Dreamfyre and Tessarion and Sunfyre, too - and they were all healthy and grew pretty big.

Yeah you're right. If there was anything it was a gradual decline in health. Which doesn't jive with the considerably degraded health of the dragons on the pyramid. There is definitely a bit in one of the Meereen chapters about how dragons do not do well in captivity.

yeah we don't have any hard evidence of it

do you guys have a theory on what the maesters did

[Damsel in Distress]

On 5/17/2021 at 5:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

With the cradle eggs thing something like that is clearly there in the story. But the Targaryens never had problems bonding with young and previously unclaimed hatchlings or drakes - the dangerous thing is claiming an older dragon who had previous riders. Or a wild dragon who was neither accustomed to humans nor previously ridden.

But the problem with the imprint idea is that the dragons in Martinworld just don't give a damn about the people who handle their eggs or feed or care for them while they are hatchlings. They only do bond with the blood of the dragon, not other people. That much is clear.

If this wasn't the case then dragon grooms and stableboys would have taken over the Targaryen dragons a long time ago, especially back in the first century where there were apparently dozens of riderless dragons on Dragonstone.

The Valyrians would take precaution to make sure that the right to ride dragons is exclusive.  Not everybody can bond and ride a dragon.  The pool of people able to ride would have been very limited to keep the power to themselves.