Megorova Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 What could be the reason why Daemon I Blackfyre rebelled against the Targaryens? Quote There was no final insult, no great wrong, that led Daemon Blackfyre to turn against King Daeron. If it was truly all for the love of Daenerys, how is it that eight years passed before the rebellion bloomed? That was a long time to harbor thwarted love, especially when Rohanne had already given him seven sons and daughters besides, and Daenerys had also borne Prince Maron several heirs. - TWOIAF, Daeron II. In the World Book that question remained unanswered, though I think that there are clues there (especially in that quote) using which we can find the answer. It seems that Daemon got married with Rohanne of Tyrosh only because his father promised him that later he will be able to take Daenerys as his second bride. Though King Daeron was against it, and thus after the wedding he used various means to break them up, including giving to Daemon a tract of land near the Blackwater, with the right to raise there a castle, which frequently kept Daemon away from King’s Landing, preoccupied with various matters concerning the construction. Could be that even though Daemon and Daenerys loved each other, their family tricked her into thinking that Daemon had already forgotten her and their promise to be together, and they manipulated her into agreeing to get engaged with Maron Martell. Daemon tried to win her back at the tournament that was held to celebrate her wedding with Maron, though in the final tilt he was defeated by Baelor Targaryen, who from that incident got a nickname Breakspear. Daenerys married with Maron and went with him to Dorne. Could be that afterwards Daemon’s attempts to get in contact with her were botched by Maron, who intercepted Daemon’s letters to Daenerys. Obviously, my musings are no more than speculations, though, something like that could have happened. Family Reunions & Consequences Based on the list of all known tournaments that were ever held in the 7K, it seems that majority of them were held to honor some special events such as weddings, birthdays, coronations, anniversaries, etc. List of tourneys in Westeros In The Hedge Knight novel Baelor Breakspear mentioned tournament that was held in 193 AC at King’s Landing: Quote “I remember Ser Arlan of Pennytree,” the man in the high seat said quietly. “He never won a tourney that I know, but he never shamed himself either. At King’s Landing sixteen years ago, he overthrew Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal in the melee” It seems that the occasion of that tournament was King Daeron’s 40th birthday (he was born on the last day of 153 AC). And if that is so, then it’s likely that the entire Targaryen family gathered at King’s Landing to attend the King’s big party, including Daenerys, who returned home for the first time since her departure to Dorne. That’s when Daemon Blackfyre got reunited with his long lost love. Both of them were for years married with the others and had many children with their spouses, thus King Daeron and his cronies thought that there’s no need to keep them separated, that nothing will happen even if they will find out the truth about what was done to them. When Daemon and Daenerys met face to face and finally talked, they realized that they were tricked by their family into breaking up. I’m not going to speculate what happened then, whether they got back together and were intending to leave their spouses, or whether they allowed their past feeling to temporarily overwhelm them and spent only one night together. The exact details are irrelevant, the only thing that does matter is that afterwards Daenerys got pregnant and the father of her child was Daemon. Water Gardens Approximately 40 weeks after the tournament, maybe on the Tenth Moon of 194 AC, back at Dorne, Daenerys gave birth to Daemon’s son. And when the boy turned one year old, Daenerys sent him to Daemon. Probably her husband forced her to get rid of her bastard. Look closely at the wording in this quote (read slowly): Quote Whether Daenerys loved Daemon, as those who rose for the Black Dragon later claimed, who could say? In the years afterward, Daenerys was never aught but a loyal wife to Prince Maron, and if she mourned Daemon Blackfyre, she left no record of it. - TWOIAF. This could be interpreted as Daenerys became a loyal wife to Prince Maron only afterward, in the years after Daemon’s death. Thus, there’s a valid reason to suspect that prior to Daemon’s death him and Daenerys had an affair. If my theory is correct, then Maron Martell building Water Gardens for his wife has an entirely different meaning. First of all it isn’t noted anywhere when exactly Maron had those gardens build, whether it was prior their wedding, soon after it, or years later already after his wife had an affair with Daemon. Could be that those gardens were not a gift, instead it was a cruel reminder to Daenerys that even though she and Daemon loved each other and everyone knew about this, no one cares about their love. It was her marriage with Maron that made Dorne part of the Seven Kingdoms, thus she will never be allowed to break free from it. Even though she found out that Daemon didn’t betrayed her and never stopped loving her, and even though she gave birth to Daemon’s child. None of that matters, because for her husband and for King Daeron she is just a bargaining chip. The deal is done and thus she is a property that will always belong to Dorne. Quote “Prince Maron raised them as a gift for his Targaryen bride, to mark Dorne’s marriage to the Iron Throne.” - AFFC, The Soiled Knight. “The Water Gardens are my favorite place in this world, ser. One of my ancestors had them built to please his Targaryen bride and free her from the dust and heat of Sunspear. Daenerys was her name. She was sister to King Daeron the Good, and it was her marriage that made Dorne part of the Seven Kingdoms. The whole realm knew that the girl loved Daeron’s bastard brother Daemon Blackfyre, and was loved by him in turn, but the king was wise enough to see that the good of thousands must come before the desires of two, even if those two were dear to him. It was Daenerys who filled the gardens with laughing children. Her own children at the start, but later the sons and daughters of lords and landed knights were brought in to be companions to the boys and girls of princely blood. And one summer’s day when it was scorching hot, she took pity on the children of her grooms and cooks and serving men and invited them to use the pools and fountains too, a tradition that has endured till this day.” - ADWD, The Watcher. The titles of those two chapters could be referring to Daemon Blackfyre and to Maron Martell; the castle’s name could be a mockery; Daenerys’ gesture could be in defiance against her husband’s cruelty - if someone doesn’t understand what’s the meaning of this three elements, ask and I will clarify them after the OP (though do check in the thread below, maybe someone else had already asked and I wrote the answer). Political Reasons & Personal Reasons When Daemon found out that he has a bastard-son, it greatly saddened him. And even though he was glad to have a child, born by his beloved Daenerys, he didn’t wanted for that child to be a bastard. Thus he went to King Daeron, told him everything, and asked his brother to legitimize Daenerys’ baby. King Daeron had greatly invested to forge a truce with Dorne. He was in a happy marriage with Mariah Martell and had four children with her. Also he gave too much power to Martells and other Dornishmen. If Daeron agreed to grant Daemon’s request, and this deed would have angered Dornishmen, as a personal insult to their Prince, then Daeron would have been stuck between a hammer and an anvil. Because majority of Daeron’s political supporters were Dornishmen, and the rest of his court resented him for his favoritism towards them. If Dornishmen turned against him, no one would have aided him in the confrontation against them. And the conflict with Martells could have ruined his marriage. So Daeron said - No. The Final Insult Apparently they quarreled and exchanged some grave insults. Could be that Daeron said that now he regrets not disregarding his father’s foolish last will, and that he shouldn’t have treated Daemon as his brother, shouldn’t have accepted him into his family. Because, instead of being grateful to him for everything that Daeron did for him, Daemon betrayed him. That he should have never trusted to a bastard because all bastards are black-blooded cravens. Quote “The old High Septon told my father that king’s laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another. Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal.” - Egg to Duncan. The King insulted both Daemon and his child. And Daemon reminded him that there were rumors that Daeron himself is also a bastard, and that their father thought so too, that’s why he gave the King’s sword - Blackfyre - to Daemon and not to Daeron. And then Daeron kicked him out. Daemon badly received his brother’s refusal, and later was additionally provoked by Bittersteel, who for many years had instigated Daemon to rebel against the King. Quote Whatever the case may be, Aegor Rivers soon began to press Daemon Blackfyre to proclaim for the throne, and all the more so after Daemon agreed to wed his eldest daughter, Calla, to Aegor. Bitter his steel may have been, but worse was his tongue. He spilled poison in Daemon’s ear, and with him came the clamoring of other knights and lords with grievances. In the end, years of such talk bore their fruit, and Daemon Blackfyre made his decision. I think that originally Daemon had no intentions to rebel against Daeron by raising a war. Instead, what he had in mind was to gather the nobility of the 7K and to present the child to them. He wasn’t intending to declare himself a King. All he wanted to do is to hold an acknowledgement ceremony, with all those Lords as witnesses, and to use Blackfyre-sword to legitimize his son. Quote Yet it was a decision he made rashly, for word soon reached King Daeron that Blackfyre meant to declare himself king within the turn of the moon. (We do not know how word came to Daeron, though Merion’s unfinished The Red Dragon and the Black suggests that another of the Great Bastards, Brynden Rivers, was involved.) The king sent the Kingsguard to arrest Daemon before he could take his plans for treason any further. Daemon was forewarned, and with the help of the famously hot-tempered knight Ser Quentyn Ball, called Fireball, he was able to escape the Red Keep safely. Daemon Blackfyre’s allies used this attempted arrest as a cause for war, claiming that Daeron had acted against Daemon out of no more than baseless fear. Only the King should be able to do a gesture like that - to legitimize a bastard. And thus Daemon’s intentions were interpreted by Daeron as if though Daemon is taking upon himself the King’s rights. If the Lords of the 7K will accept this deed, then who knows what else Daemon will be able to do later? And thus, he sent the Kingsguards to seize Daemon. Quote In this manner did the First Blackfyre Rebellion begin, in the year 196 AC. The Fireball & The Mysterious Archer I think that afterwards, when Quentyn saved Daemon, he was appointed by Daemon to be his son’s caretaker, and that’s why the guy got targeted by Bloodraven. King Daeron thought that if he will get rid of the child, then there will be no reason for Daemon to persist with his plans. Quote “Why did they call him Fireball?” “For his hot head and red hair. Ser Quentyn Ball was the master-at-arms at the Red Keep. He taught my father and my uncles how to fight. The Great Bastards too. King Aegon promised to raise him to the Kingsguard, so Fireball made his wife join the silent sisters, only by the time a place came open, King Aegon was dead and King Daeron named Ser Willam Wylde instead. My father says that it was Fireball as much as Bittersteel who convinced Daemon Blackfyre to claim the crown, and rescued him when Daeron sent the Kingsguard to arrest him. Later on, Fireball killed Lord Lefford at the gates of Lannisport and sent the Grey Lion running back to hide inside the Rock. At the crossing of the Mandel, he cut down the sons of Lady Penrose one by one. They say he spared the life of the youngest one as a kindness to his mother.” “That was chivalrous of him,” Dunk had to admit. “Did Ser Quentyn die upon the Redgrass Field?” “Before, ser,” Egg replied. “An archer put an arrow through his throat as he dismounted by a stream to have a drink. Just some common man, no one knows who.” - TMK. Could be that the unknown archer that killed Fireball was either one of the Raven’s Teeth or even Bloodraven himself. Quentyn got ambushed when he got off his horse to take some water from a stream, for the child that was with him. Apparently this happened when Quentyn was transporting his protégé between safe-houses. One of those places could have been located near Daemon’s tract of land, where he had built his castle. Possibly it was at Duskendale, which is located off the coast of Blackwater Bay. It seems that the child was kept alive as a kindness to his mother. After Quentyn’s assassination, the archer brought the child to King’s Landing and left him at the Flea Bottom amongst other waifs, which at least gave him a chance to survive. The Chipped Garnet & His Name In 198 AC Ser Arlan of Pennytree met Daemon’s child on the streets of King’s Landing, and out of pity took him as his squire. Quote He had piled the old man’s things under an oak. The cloth purse contained three silver stags, nineteen copper pennies, and a chipped garnet; as with most hedge knights, the greatest part of his worldly wealth had been tied up in his horses and weapons. - THK. “We have twenty-two pennies, three stars, one stag, and that old chipped garnet, ser.” - TMK. Garnet is a red-colored semi-precious gemstone. The pommel of Jon Snow’s bastard-sword, Longclaw, is shaped in the form of a wolf’s head and decorated with chips of red garnet in place of the wolf’s eyes. The Blackfyre sword is also a bastard sword or hand-and-a-half sword, and its pommel is decorated with a red stone. There’s a picture of it in the World Book, in chapter Aegon IV. I think that when Daemon was sending his child with the Fireball, he chipped off a piece of garnet from the Blackfyre’s pommel and gave it for his son as a gesture of acknowledgment, and as an evidence of his Blackfyre-origin for the people to whom Daemon was sending his son. How to make sure that a little child won’t lose something so important? I’m making here a huge leap of logic, though I think that the garnet was sewed inside a small leather pouch with words “Dun fort of Duskendale” embossed on it, and then hanged on a cord around the child’s neck, like a dog-tag - “Dunk had been no more than three or four at the time, running half naked through the alleys of Flea Bottom, more animal than boy.” Thus, when Ser Arlan found Dunk, that garnet still was amongst Dunk’s meager possessions. Though in a span of the time that he was living on the streets of KL, the writing became mostly indecipherable (partially faded, got abraded, tarnished or soiled), and the only clear letters that remained were - DUN fort of dusKendale. And that’s how Arlan named the boy - Dunk. Quote The wretched boy laughed aloud, as if that was the funniest thing he’d ever heard. “Dunk?” he said. “Ser Dunk? That’s no name for a knight. Is it short for Duncan?” Was it? The old man had called him just Dunk for as long as he could recall, and he did not remember much of his life before. “Duncan, yes,” he said. “Ser Duncan of…” Dunk had no other name, nor any house; Ser Arlan had found him living wild in the stews and alleys of Flea Bottom. He had never known his father or mother. What was he to say? “Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom” did not sound very knightly. He could take Pennytree, but what if they asked him where it was? Dunk had never been to Pennytree, nor had the old man talked much about it. He frowned for a moment, and then blurted out, “Ser Duncan the Tall.” He was tall, no one could dispute that, and it sounded puissant.” - THK. Though, his real name is not Duncan. His Actual Age Quote “This old master of yours, the knight of Pennytree . . . did he fight in the Blackfyre Rebellion?” “He did, m’lord. Before he took me on.” Dunk had been no more than three or four at the time, running half naked through the alleys of Flea Bottom, more animal than boy. - 196 AC. “I was squire to Ser Arlan of Pennytree since I was five or six.” - 198 AC. Dunk was hugely tall for his age, a shambling, shaggy, big-boned boy of sixteen or seventeen years (no one was quite certain which) who stood closer to seven feet than to six, and had only just begun to fill out his frame. - 209 AC. “How old are you, ser?” “Near twenty, if it please m’lady.” Dunk liked the ring of twenty, though most like he was a year younger, maybe two. No one knew for certain, least of all him. He must have had a mother and a father like everybody else, but he’d never known them, not even their names, and no one in Flea Bottom had ever cared much when he’d been born, or to whom. - 211 AC. Dunk lied to Rohanne Webber that he is 20 years old, even though he was younger than that. If he thought that he was 18-19 in 211, 16-17 in 209, 5-6 in 198, and 3-4 in 196, then he thought that he was born in 192. Though, in those quotes, concerning Dunk’s age, it was noted twice that no one knew his actual age, least of all him. Because of his superior height he always looked older than his actual age, and that’s how it was since he was a toddler. Based on the hints in the books his actual age is two years less than what he thought, and thus he was born in 194 AC. When Dunk met Egg in 209, he was 14-15 and thus he “had only just begun to fill out his frame”, and in one of the quotes above he was referred to by GRRM as a "big-boned boy of sixteen or seventeen years". A boy! In ASOIAF 16-years old males are already considered to be men, adults. Which means that in 209 AC Dunk was less than 16 years old, and this "boy of sixteen or seventeen years" + "though most like he was a year younger, maybe two" is a clue that in that year he was a year or two younger than 16-17. He was 14, turning 15, or has already turned 15 by the time when the events in THK took place. Other Clues There’s a detailed analysis of many symbols present in Dunk & Egg novels in @Seams 's thread A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Reread And here’s a partial list of hints about Dunk’s origin: 1. There’s a lot of water/rain-related symbolism in Dunk’s life, which is possibly a reference to the place of his birth, Water Gardens, and to his bastard-name, which should have been Waters. His father died under the rain of arrows, his caretaker died from a chill caused by a rain, his first love interest - a Dornish puppeteer - was “a tall drink of water”, etc. 2. Dunk and Daemon II were talking about the same person, THEIR father: Quote John the Fiddler paid the older man no mind. “I would love to cross swords with you, ser. I’ve tried men of many lands and races, but never one your size. Was your father large as well?” “I never knew my father, ser.” “I am sad to hear it. Mine own sire was taken from me too soon.” - TMK. 3. Both of Dunk’s caretakers, Arlan and Quentyn, in the past had defeated Damon Lannister the Grey Lion. 4. Dunk is a main character in three novels, but we still don’t know the color of his eyes and concerning the color of his hair, there was only this information: Quote Dunk pushed his fingers through his mop of sun-streaked hair. - TSS. He washed off the dust of the road as best he could, and ran wet fingers through his thick mop of sun-streaked hair. - TMK. 5. Quote “Aegon is to return to my castle at Summerhall. There is a place there for you, if you wish. A knight of my household. You’ll swear your sword to me, and Aegon can squire for you. While you train him, my master-at-arms will finish your own training.” The prince gave him a shrewd look. “Your Ser Arlan did all he could for you, I have no doubt, but you still have much to learn.” “I know, m’lord.” Dunk looked about him. At the green grass and the reeds, the tall elm, the ripples dancing across the surface of the sunlit pool. Another dragonfly was moving across the water, or perhaps it was the same one. What shall it be, Dunk? he asked himself. Dragonflies or dragons? - THK. Duncan the Small, the Prince of Dragonflies. Same as Dunk he has chosen his own path - dragonflies instead of dragons. Etc. Conclusion Duncan the Tall (possibly) is the real cause of the First Blackfyre Rebellion. Thus, in my opinion, Dunk & Egg novels are not merely stories about the adventures of a no-name knight and his squire, instead it’s a Saga about Targaryens and Blackfyres. And I think that what happened in the following D&E novels is relevant for what is currently happening in ASOIAF’s plot. Because I am absolutely sure that amongst the main series’ characters there are at least seven hidden dragonseeds who are Dunk’s descendants and thru him Blackfyres by blood. You can read more on this topic in Parts 6 & 9 of the “Swan Song”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Qohor Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 This is a major leap and I hope its not true. ASOIAF is supposed to be a series that critiques feudalism, I'd hate it if only of the only major smallfolk characters turned out to be just another secret Targaryen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted May 18, 2021 Author Share Posted May 18, 2021 On 5/17/2021 at 7:45 PM, Lady_Qohor said: ASOIAF is supposed to be a series that critiques feudalism Who told you that? Why do you think so? I doubt that ASOIAF's plot will end with 7K being ruled by democracy. Dany won't just give up Iron Throne and being the Queen of the 7K, not after everything that she went thru to get there. And if GRRM won't abdicate monarchy by the end of the series, then it's not really a critique of feudalism. On 5/17/2021 at 7:45 PM, Lady_Qohor said: I'd hate it if only of the only major smallfolk characters turned out to be just another secret Targaryen. You can't throw a stone in that world without hitting a dragonseed, they are everywhere, all important characters in ASOIAF are either descendants of the Targaryens or related to them thru marriages. fAegon, Varys, Melisandre, Petyr Baelish, Brienne, Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion and other Lannisters (thru Rohanne Webber and Jenny of Oldstones), Olenna Tyrell (thru her mother, Calla Blackfyre) and other Tyrells, Starks, Hightowers, Daynes, Martells, Baratheons, Swanns, Khal Drogo, Brown Ben Plumm, the Sealord of Braavos, Black Pearls of Braavos, etc., etc., etc. Though, who the character is and what he/she has accomplished has nothing to do with who his/her parents are, it's all about who he/she is as a person. So everything that Dunk did, everything that he has accomplished has nothing to do with him being a secret dragonseed. Thus - no sense in being disappointed by this turn of events. The only difference between Dunk being just an no-name kid from Flea Bottom and him being a secret child of Daemon Blackfyre and Princess Daenerys is that thru Dunk's life-story GRRM is sending to readers a message - Dunk was born by a Targaryen and died with the Targaryens - no one can escape from their fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarksInTheNorth Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 Only a small observation on all of this, but: while boys become men at age sixteen in ASOIAF, they aren't always viewed as men by the narration. Plenty of people are called boys even after reaching the supposed age of majority. This is just one example, but here's Sansa talking about Wallace Waynwood: Robb would be his age, if he were still alive, she could not help but think, but Robb died a king, and this is just a boy. Wallace is between 17 and 22 at this point and a knight, yet Sansa still considers him a boy. So someone being called a boy in the narrative isn't automatically a clue to any big secret. As for the rest, it is significant extrapolation to take one line about a tournament and say that it means that Dunk is a Blackfyre/Targaryen bastard. GRRM has given previous examples to questions that indicate the fandom has way overthought details that he's never thought upon. Two examples: For a while, all anyone knew about Ned Stark's mother was that her name was "Lady Stark. She died." GRRM didn't have plans for the mother of arguably one of the most important characters of the entire series. He didn't seem to think it was important that we know anything about her: "Did Tolkien ever get letters asking about Aragorn’s mother, I wonder?" Similarly, he hasn't named Doran's mother, the Princess of Dorne. When someone asked him about the theory that Oberyn's four youngest daughters were named for him, his siblings, and his mother, GRRM's response was "I think you’ve given this a lot more thought than I ever did." For mysteries that GRRM has intentionally introduced into the narrative, there's loads of references to it to puzzle together. Consider Hoster's tansy mystery; the question of who killed Jon Arryn; the Manderly meat pies; who killed Little Walder, etc. Yet this portion of your theory, any many others, extrapolates into infinity based off one small observation. There is nothing to indicate that these details are anything more than one-offs meant to enlargen the world building and connect to greater mysteries. The term dragonseed hasn't shown up in any books of the core series, or any Dunk + Egg novel. If the idea of dragonseed would be important to the core development of anything in either series, surely it would have been introduced in material published before 2013? But it wasn't. Compare that to the Tansy mystery, which would overall have less of an effect on the world than the reason for the Blackfyre Rebellions. It's explicitly spread out across four chapters in ASOS: Catelyn I posses the question of "who is Tansy?" Catelyn II reminds the reader of it with one line Catelyn IV lets us know its important enough to be Hoster's last word Sansa VII reveals that tansy isn't a who, but a what, used to give Lysa Tully an abortion It's also woven into three other chapters more subtly: Arya IV informs us that maids drink tansy tea to keep away a pregnancy. Arya V and VI include a red-haired woman named Tansy But there's never any reference to a living son of Daemon, no rumors of a bastard in the south, no features mentioned of Dunk's that would connect to his Targaryen ancestry. Looking at the ancestry you've suggested, including the ??? theory re Viserys as father to Aegon's children, the mentioned appearances of any speculated ancestor are Valyrian, without fail. The only ancestors we don't know anything to surmise appearances are Hazel Harte (great-great-grandma and mother to a Valyrian daughter) and Rodrik Arryn (grandfather of Rhaenyra). Everyone else in the family tree has Valyrian blood or explicitly has Valyrian features. Yet Dunk doesn't. It's worth noting that Dunk has dark brown hair in the comics, which surely GRRM would've told them to make blond or golden, if not explicitly silver, if Dunk was Targaryen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted September 26, 2021 Author Share Posted September 26, 2021 On 9/25/2021 at 10:16 PM, StarksInTheNorth said: Everyone else in the family tree has Valyrian blood or explicitly has Valyrian features. Yet Dunk doesn't. It's worth noting that Dunk has dark brown hair in the comics, which surely GRRM would've told them to make blond or golden, if not explicitly silver, if Dunk was Targaryen. If GRRM would have specifically said to the comic-makers to draw Dunk as blond or golden or silver-haired, then THAT would have been a huge spoiler. Though, comics are not canon, same as the TV-show wasn't a canon. The canon, the thruth/facts are only what GRRM himself wrote in his books. And in his books he intentionally didn't revealed to the readers what is Dunk's hair color, or what is the color of his eyes. Furthermore, because Dunk has spent most of his life outdoors, even if he was born with silver-gold hair of Targaryens, eventually it became darker, because of his nearly constant exposure to the sun. Also it's likely that he didn't had an opportunity to frequently wash his hair. So even if his hair is still silver-gold, he lives on the road, so his hair possibly looks like golden-brown or dirty-blond, because it IS dirty. Though that - his looks - is only one of the things. Add here also the intentional on GRRM's part ambiguity (mentioned in all three books) concerning Dunk's age; Baelor Breakspear mentioning that tournament, but not mentioning what was the occasion in which it was held (King Daeron's big 40, and for that sort of important occasion all of Daeron's relatives, including Daemon and Daenerys, would have been present); that chipped garnet that for some reason wasn't lost in the writing, wasn't thrown away or sold by Dunk, and instead migrated from book one into book three, which means that it's an important element of the plot (because it's a piece of Blackfyre-sword); obvious parallels drawn by GRRM between Dunk, Barristan Selmy, Brienne and the Hound (because all of them are bloodrelated, all of them are Blackfyres by blood); not as obvious parallels between Rohanne Webber / Lucas Longinch and Rohanne of Tyrosh / Maron Martell; similarities in looks of Dunk and Daemon I Blackfyre ( @Seams wrote a lot on this topic in the thread A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Reread); etc., etc., etc. All that together could be a foundation that GRRM has build in his books for the later reveal concerning Dunk's real identity, which will be important for the roles of Brienne, the Hound, and other characters connected to Dunk. Even Melisandre and Varys. Because they are Dunk's grandchildren. In his books GRRM has connected all important characters through their blood-lines, specifically their dragonseed-bloodlines. Basically nearly all relevant characters are partially Targaryens by blood. A Song of Ice and Fire is not a song of the Others and Valyrians, instead it's a song of blood. Now and before. Like in the past - Bloodstone fell from the sky and caused the First Long Night and Blood Betrayal between the Bloodstone Emperor and the Amethyst Empress / who were the uncle and the mother of Azor Ahai. On 9/25/2021 at 10:16 PM, StarksInTheNorth said: If the idea of dragonseed would be important to the core development of anything in either series, surely it would have been introduced in material published before 2013? But it wasn't. Of course it WAS. We're just using a term "dragonseed" to designate those characters who are carriers of the blood of the dragons, those who are Valyrian or partially Valyrian by blood. Spoiler AGOT, Dany I - "The water was scalding hot, but Daenerys did not flinch or cry out. She liked the heat. It made her feel clean. Besides, her brother had often told her that it was never too hot for a Targaryen. "Ours is the house of the dragon," he would say. "The fire is in our blood." "The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men." AGOT, Dany II - "I am blood of the dragon, she told herself. I am Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone, of the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror." AGOT, Cat IV - "His son Maegor the Cruel had seen it completed. Afterward he had taken the heads of every stonemason, woodworker, and builder who had labored on it. Only the blood of the dragon would ever know the secrets of the fortress the Dragonlords had built, he vowed." AGOT, Dany IV - "She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it." AGOT, Dany X - "The heat beat at the air with great red wings, driving the Dothraki back, driving off even Mormont, but Dany stood her ground. She was the blood of the dragon, and the fire was in her." ACOK, Cat IV - "The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men." ASOS, Dany II - "Remind your Good Master of who I am. Remind him that I am Daenerys Stormborn, Mother of Dragons, the Unburnt, trueborn queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. My blood is the blood of Aegon the Conqueror, and of old Valyria before him." ASOS, Davos IV - "Robert did that. Not the boy. My daughter has grown fond of him. And he is mine own blood." "Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon." Stannis ground his teeth. "I'll hear no more of this. The dragons are done. The Targaryens tried to bring them back half a dozen times. And made fools of themselves, or corpses. Patchface is the only fool we need on this godsforsaken rock. You have the leeches. Do your work." ASOS, Davos V - "Melisandre put her hand on the king's arm. "The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his king's blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born." ASOS, Dany V - "The white dragon landed awkwardly with one foot on the man's head and one on his shoulder, shrieked, and flew off again. "He likes you, Ben," said Dany. "And well he might." Brown Ben laughed. "I have me a drop of the dragon blood myself, you know." AFFC, Jaime I - "It was my work, not his, Jaime almost told her. Instead he had promised to find what answers he could from the chief undergaoler, a bentback old man named Rennifer Longwaters. "I see you wonder, what sort of name is that?" the man had cackled when Jaime went to question him. "It is an old name, 'tis true. I am not one to boast, but there is royal blood in my veins. I am descended from a princess. My father told me the tale when I was a tad of a lad." Longwaters had not been a tad of a lad for many a year, to judge from his spotted head and the white hairs growing from his chin. "She was the fairest treasure of the Maidenvault. Lord Oakenfist the great admiral lost his heart to her, though he was married to another. She gave their son the bastard name of 'Waters' in honor of his father, and he grew to be a great knight, as did his own son, who put the 'Long' before the 'Waters' so men might know that he was not basely born himself. So I have a little dragon in me." AFFC, Cersei V - "Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his. Had any man ever been so beautiful? He was more than a man, though. His blood was the blood of old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods." AFFC, Sam IV - "He was the blood of the dragon, but now his fire has gone out. He was Aemon Targaryen. And now his watch is ended." "Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . ." AFFC, The Princess in the Tower - "She narrowed her eyes. "What is our heart's desire?" "Vengeance." His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. "Justice." Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, "Fire and blood." <- Martells are partially Valyrian, thru Drazenko Rogare (husband of Aliandra Martell and grandfather of Myriah and Maron Martells) and Daenerys Targaryen (wife of Maron Martell). AFFC, Sam V - "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can." ADWD, The Spurned Suitor - "They are men like any other men. They want gold, glory, power. That's all I am trusting in." That, and my own destiny. I am a prince of Dorne, and the blood of dragons is in my veins." ADWD, The Queen's Hand - "The Dornishmen exchanged a look. Then Drinkwater said, "Quentyn told the Tattered Prince he could control them. It was in his blood, he said. He had Targaryen blood." "Blood of the dragon." Dany is not the only character in ASOIAF who is a Targaryen by blood. There's also: - Martells, Baratheons, Velaryons, Hightowers (thru marriage with Princess Rhaena), Daynes and Dondarrions (thru marriages with Princess Rhaena's descendants), Penroses and Longwaters (descendants of Princess Elaena); the current Black Pearl of Braavos and her relatives (descendants of Aegon the Unworthy and Bellegere Otherys); - there's Brown Ben Plumm; - Petyr Baelish. His great-grandfather - a sellsword from Braavos - possibly was a son of the Bastard of Harrenhal (founder of House Whent, and son of Aegon IV and Jeyne Lothston) and one of Bellegere Otherys' granddaughters; - Catelyn Tully and her siblings and their children are descendants of Aegon IV thru his son - the Bastard of Harrenhal. GRRM had for a reason thru Baelor Breakspear mentioned that guy to the readers, when he mentioned that tournament to Dunk. The tournament during which Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen got together and conceived Dunk; - Ned and his children; also Lyanna, Brandon and Benjen were also partially Targaryens by blood - their ancestor was Aegon IV, one of his daughters was Mya Rivers (Bloodraven's sister), she married with a Blackwood and her daughters were Melantha Blackwood (wife of Willam Stark, Lyanna's great-grandmother) and Betha Blackwood (wife of Aegon V Targaryen, and Rhaegar's great-grandmother); - Dany's husband - Khal Drogo - also was a carrier of Targaryen genes - his and Brown Ben Plumm's great-grandmother was a daughter of Viserys Plumm (bastard-son of Aegon IV and Princess Elaena Targaryen); - Jenny of Oldstones was a daughter of Duncan the Tall (who was a pureblooded Targaryen, because his parents were Daenerys Targaryen and Daemon I Blackfyre (whose parents were Aegon IV and Daena Targaryen)) and Rohanne Webber/the Ghost of High Heart; - Jenny had three children, one fathered by Prince Duncan Targaryen - Melisandre, and two fathered by Maelys Blackfyre - Serra and Varys; - Illyrio Mopatis is a grandson of Aerion Brightflame Targaryen; - the Hound, the Mountain and Pretty Meris (from the sellswords company Windblown, founded by the Tattered Prince) are also Duncan the Tall's descendants, same as Brienne and Hodor. Spoiler Hodor's great-grandparents were/are Duncan the Tall and Old Nan/Alysanne Stark <- Alysanne was Willam Stark's younger sister, so she was also Melantha Blackwood's sister-in-law, and thru that marriage also became connected to Betha Blackwood, Aegon V and maester Aemon. Alysanne and Dunk didn't married, instead she was married off by her family to Franklyn Frey - Walder Frey's uncle (there were clues about this in The Mystery Knight novel). Old Nan thru marriage was a member of House Frey, so that's why Hodor's name is Walder. Nan and Dunk had two children, a set of twins - a boy and a girl. That boy is Hodor's grandfather, and the girl (who had at least two daughters) is a gradmother of Clegane-brothers and Meris Cafferen/Wenda the White Fawn/Pretty Meris from Windblown - Brienne's mother. Could be that the Tattered Prince is a son of the Wandeing Wolf Rodrick Stark - younger brother of Willam and Alysanne. So Meris had joined Windblown because its founder is her relative - he is a nephew of Meris' great-grandmother. So Tattered Prince is a Stark, and that's why there are a lot of grey color all around him, and why he has a grudge against Bloodbeard (the founder of the Company of the Cat, and a descendant of Raymun Redbeard who was a King-Beyond-the-Wall) - because Starks and Wildlings are a longtime enemies. Tattered Prince brought to Dany three people that are bloodrelated to her - Geris Drinkwater (descendant of Duncan the Tall and Tanselle-To-Tall), Quentyn Martell (descendant of Dunk's mother - Princess Daenerys), and Meris (descendant of Dunk and Nan). And Dany's dragons didn't attacked Meris because her blood of the dragon was purer than Quentyn's. Meris is 1/8 Targaryen, and Quentyn was ~1/16 Targaryen. Aegon IV + Daena Targaryen = Daemon I Blackfyre, 100% Targaryen by blood. Daemon + Daenerys = Duncan the Tall, 100% Targaryen by blood. Dunk + Alysanne = son and daughter, 1/2 Targaryens. Daughter + husband = daughter 1 (mother of Gregor and Sandor), daughter 2 (mother of Meris Cafferen), 1/4 Targaryens. Meris's mother + husband from House Cafferen = Meris, 1/8 Targaryen. Daenerys Targaryen + Maron Martell = children, 1/2 Targaryens (Daenerys was approximately same age as her nephews Baelor-Maekar, so her own children were about same age as Daeron the Drunken-Egg). children + spouses = grandchildren, 1/4 Targaryens (they were about same age as Egg's children - Duncan-Jaehaerys-Rhaelle). grandchildren + spouses = great-grandchildren, 1/8 Targaryens (they were about same age as Aerys and Rhaella, so they are Doran, Oberyn and Elia). great-grandchildren + spouses = Arianne, Trystane, Quentyn - 1/16 Targaryens. Or maybe I miscalculated somewhere and there should be one more generation in the Martell-line, which will make Quentyn only 1/32 Targaryen instead of 1/16. Though eitherway - whether he is 1/16 or 1/32 Targaryen, Meris' dragon-blood is still purer than his, that's why the dragons spared her and killed him. Now let's look at Arianne and fAegon. Daemon I Blackfyre + Rohanne of Tyrosh = Aenys Blackfyre (1/2 Targaryen) + wife = daughter (1/4 Targaryen) + Lyonell Selmy = Barristan Selmy (1/8 Targaryen) + septa Lemore/Lady Jeyne Swann = fAegon - 1/16 Targaryen, same as Arianne Martell. And there was a hint in The Hedge Knight novel that Arianne will be pregnant with fAegon's child - "The puppeteer's stall had been knocked on its side. The fat Dornishwoman was on the ground weeping. One man-at-arms was dangling the puppets of Florian and Jonquil from his hands as another set them afire with a torch. Three more men were opening chests, spilling more puppets on the ground and stamping on them. The dragon puppet was scattered all about them, a broken wing here, its head there, its tail in three pieces." <- Barristan and Lemore are parallels to Florian and Jonquil, fAegon is a parallel to mummer's dragon and Arianne is a parallel to that fat Dornishwoman. - Barristan Selmy's mother was a daughter of Aenys Blackfyre; - fAegon is Barristan's son, so he is also a carrier of Targaryen genes, and fAegon is Arianne Martell's either third or fourth cousin. - Olenna Tyrell's mother possibly was Calla Blackfyre, thus Margaery and Loras are bloodrelated to Targaryens, Baratheons and Starks. Margaery and Sansa are fourth cousins. Loras and Renly were fourth cousins once removed. Just think about all these blood-connections and parallels between multiple characters both in the main series and in D&E novels - there are TONS of them. A lot more than those about tansy. In other words the blood of the dragons is splattered all over ASOIAF and its companion books. Nearly all important characters are dragonseeds / or if you don't like this designation - you can call them "blood of the dragons" instead of "dragonseeds". Also think about this - if GRRM had inserted clues about this "tansy-mystery" into seven chapters of ASOIAF. All THAT just to reveal to the readers that Hoster Tully tricked one of his daughters into aborting her pregnancy. Then how many clues he would have made and hidden in his books about this "dragonseed-mystery"? A LOT more. It's something like this - ASOIAF's general plotline is like a house, and all those hidden mysteries are that house's foundation, and every concealed clue is a brick that forms that foundation. I have a "constructor's" thinking, same as GRRM, thus when I look at the house that he is building, I am aware that besides what is visible above the ground, that house also has another level, concealed underground. Though majority of the readers will find out this only when in the last books of the series GRRM will bring them to that house for a walkthrough tour, and during that tour they will see that aside from the above-the-ground levels, there was also a basement. And from within of that basement they will be able to see and distinguish all those brinks that formed that house's foundation. I see majority of those clues, even without a guide, and just because other people don't see them, it doesn't mean that they aren't there. No offence. There are certain forum-members here, that tried to refute my theory, that the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar, not Brynden Bloodraven Rivers, with this reasoning - "In the main series Shiera Seastar was mentioned only once. So there's no way that such an important character as the 3EC, could be someone as absentee as Shiera". Though, while they were making those arguments, they were completely ignoring: 1. what GRRM had said in one of his interviews about the Three-Eyed Raven (Google it, there's a Youtube-video of that interview); 2. those instances in the books when certain characters directly asked whether Bloodraven is the 3EC, and were not given a reply; 3. those elements that connect Bloodraven specifically to ravens, not crows; 4. all those clues thru which GRRM had connected Shiera to Quaithe - a character who officially was introduced to the readers in the middle of ACOK, but actually had appeared in the series as far back as in the 68th-Dany IX chapter of AGOT (whispering and smiling stars, ghosts in the red-black clothes, with green-blue eyes). Not to mention that possibly she was also Old Nan's lying crow, Mance Rayder's wildling healer, and Jeyne Swann's unnamed septa - a character that had appeared multiple times during the events that, even though chronologically predated the beginning of the series, nevertheless still have influence on what is currently happening in the books. Old Nan and Dunk didn't married, instead he became a Kingsguard and then died at Summerhall, and now in the series we have his descendants - Meris, Brienne, Hodor, the Hound, the Mountain, Melisandre, Varys, House Drinkwater. Mance Rayder deserted from the Night's Watch, became the King-Beyond-the-Wall, and brough all the Wildling tribes to attack The Wall. And because of him Jon first became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and then (supposedly) was assassinated by his sworn-brothers. And because of Barristan's encounter in 281 AC with Lady Jeyne, now we have fAegon - a Blackfyre and Varys' protege, for whom the Golden Company has attacked the 7K. Don't be like those readers that say - "I have read the books, but I didn't saw in them what you wrote in your theories, thus you're wrong and your theories are cracpot". Instead - keep your mind open to all the possibilities, don't just immediately refute those elements, that in your opinion don't fit into the concept of ASOIAF's plot. Take those elements, those clues/bricks/jigsaw pieces, and try to put each of them in their place on the Big Picture. Then you'll see that actually all of them together do fit with all the others, known and obvious, elements of ASOIAF. Just try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted September 26, 2021 Share Posted September 26, 2021 On 5/18/2021 at 8:25 AM, Megorova said: You can't throw a stone in that world without hitting a dragonseed, they are everywhere, all important characters in ASOIAF are either descendants of the Targaryens or related to them thru marriages. fAegon, Varys, Melisandre, Petyr Baelish, Brienne, Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion and other Lannisters (thru Rohanne Webber and Jenny of Oldstones), Olenna Tyrell (thru her mother, Calla Blackfyre) and other Tyrells, Starks, Hightowers, Daynes, Martells, Baratheons, Swanns, Khal Drogo, Brown Ben Plumm, the Sealord of Braavos, Black Pearls of Braavos, etc., etc., etc. Wait wha...? Olenna Tyrell through Calla Blackfyre? Did I miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarksInTheNorth Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 17 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said: Wait wha...? Olenna Tyrell through Calla Blackfyre? Did I miss something? @Jon Fossoway this entire Swan Song theory is built in the idea that Johanna Swann, mentioned a few times in F&B, is the mother of Larra Rogare. Then, Larra Rogare used blood magic to come back as Serenei of Lys and have a child with her son, Aegon IV. Somehow this all unravels to mean that every major contemporary ASOIAF character is descended from Johanna Swann through Larra/Serenei, and apparently Calla married Lord Runceford Redwyne. I haven’t seen that specific part mentioned, but I’m guessing it has something to do with his wine bottle in Illyrio’s basement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarksInTheNorth Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 18 hours ago, Megorova said: If GRRM would have specifically said to the comic-makers to draw Dunk as blond or golden or silver-haired, then THAT would have been a huge spoiler. Though, comics are not canon, same as the TV-show wasn't a canon. The canon, the thruth/facts are only what GRRM himself wrote in his books. And in his books he intentionally didn't revealed to the readers what is Dunk's hair color, or what is the color of his eyes. Furthermore, because Dunk has spent most of his life outdoors, even if he was born with silver-gold hair of Targaryens, eventually it became darker, because of his nearly constant exposure to the sun. Also it's likely that he didn't had an opportunity to frequently wash his hair. So even if his hair is still silver-gold, he lives on the road, so his hair possibly looks like golden-brown or dirty-blond, because it IS dirty. I stopped reading after this because you’ve got a lot going on but a few things. Dark hair lightens in the sun, it doesn’t get darker. I can tell you this from experience as having dark hair that’s lightened every summer of my life and from a quick google search. Just to be clear, you simultaneously believe that: GRRM told an artist to use the “same” hairline for Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys, to show that they’re the same person, but also that GRRM is not willing to tell the comic artist Dunk’s hair color because THAT is too much of a spoiler? The other thing that stands out of all of this is that you rely too heavily on external sources rather than the information presented in the main text of ASOIAF. Most readers will not have read F&B, the world book, or Dunk+Egg. The identity of Dunk as a likely ancestor of certain characters, like Brienne with her shield, is an Easter egg for the super fans, but almost certainly not more than that. If he’s the Blackfyre legacy of as many characters as you claim, it will be entirely out of left field for the majority of viewers. Here’s how we know this: the word “Dunk” does not appear once and the name “Duncan” appears only six times in the entirety of A Song of Ice and Fire. Of those, half are referring to Prince Duncan. The mentions are: Once in ASOS, Jaime VIII when he is listing previous Lord Commanders of the Kingsguard Later in that same chapter when Jaime is reading Barristan Selmy’s entry in the white book, it says “he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. . . .defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.” In AFFC, Sam II, Maester Aemon says that King Aegon V “insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch.” In ADWD, The Discarded Knight, Barristan thinks “Afterward Prince Duncan helped him to his feet and removed his helm.” Compare that to other historical figures: Jenny of Oldstones gets eight mentions and Bittersteel gets sixteen mentions by that name alone. This theory is little more than well-thought out fan fiction, though some of your suggestions like Old Nan or Johanna Swann as Lady Rogare do track more than other parts, like Larra=Serenei or what not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted September 27, 2021 Author Share Posted September 27, 2021 33 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said: but I’m guessing it has something to do with his wine bottle in Illyrio’s basement. Yes, but that's only one small part of it. I wrote in details "the whole picture" lower in the post. 18 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said: Wait wha...? Olenna Tyrell through Calla Blackfyre? Did I miss something? GRRM in his books is frequently using parallels, or in other words - he favours a troupe in which the history repeats itself. Also he's a fan of trinities. Dany by her brother was married off to Khal Drogo, as a payment for Drogo lending 10.000 of his warriors to Viserys, for his upcoming conquest of the 7K. I have noticed in the books certain traces, that show that something similar to that bargain (between the "sellers" that were dragonseeds and the "byers" that were offering to them certain resources, in exchange for a marriage with a dragonseed-female, who was a close relative of the "seller") had already occured in the past, and more than once. So the parallels (or three similar events): 1. A. Viserys - B. (his sister) Daenerys - C. Khal Drogo - D. 10.000 Dothraki-warriors. 2. A. Viserys Plumm (bastard of Aegon IV) - B. his daughter - C. Dothraki-Khal - D. 10.000 horses for the newly-created Golden Company. A. Bittersteel - B. (his niece) Calla Blackfyre - C. Runceford Redwyne - D. Redwyne Fleet, using which after their defeat in the First Blackfyre Rebellion, Bittersteel had transported Blackfyre-loyalists from Westeros to Essos. Get it? Now about those traces. What did I saw in the books that made me to realise that Viserys Plumm had married his daughter to a Dothraki-Khal, and that Bittersteel gave his fiancee to another man? It is known that Brown Ben Plumm is a descendant of THAT Viserys Plumm. I have read thru information about his ancestors and eventually recreated his family tree. I was tracing backwards from Ben to Viserys. Based on what Ben told Dany about his family, it appears that his mother was a Dothraki. Though Ben himself is not a Dothraki. Based on this I made a conclusion that in case if the child's father is a Dothraki, then the child is also considered to be a Dothraki. Though if the child's mother is a Dothraki and the father is not a Dothraki, then the child is considered to be not a Dothraki. It's like - if a woman married with a Targaryen, then their child is also a Targaryen. Though, if a Targaryen-Princess married for example with a Velaryon, then their child won't be a Targaryen, instead it will be a Velaryon. Get it? It's the same kind of thing with the Dothraki and their woman and children. Ben is not a Dothraki, though his mother is. And his mother is a Dothraki because her FATHER was a Dothraki. Ben's father was a Braavosi-Summer Islander. Because Ben said that amongst his ancestors there were people with that blood. In my opinion Ben's father was a descendant of Balerion Otherys (bastard of Aegon IV and Bellegere Otherys. Bellegere was partially Summer Islander, and her paternal grandfather was a Sealord of Braavos). Could be that Ben is a shortened version of Balerion. Also they have sort of similar nick-names: Brown/Black - Plumm/Pearl - Ben/Balerion. So Ben's Dothraki-mother married with a Braavosi-Summer Islander who was a descendant of Balerion Otherys. It is known that Ben's grandfather has heard from his own mother that they are descendants of THAT Viserys Plumm. This Ben's grandfather married with a woman that was Ibbenese-Qohorik by etnicity, and he was killed by a Dothraki. So assume that this grandfather was Ben's maternal grandfather, and thus Ben's mother was considered as a Dothraki thru this guy - her father - even though her mother was Ibbenese-Qohorik. So Ben's maternal grandfather was a Dothraki, which means that his own father (Ben's great-grandfather) also was a Dothraki. And Ben's grandfather has heard from his mother (Ben's great-grandmother) that they are descendants of Viserys Plumm. This woman was married with a Dothraki, and SHE was Viserys Plumm's descendant. Based on the number of generations between Dany and Aegon IV (who was Viserys Plumm's father), and the number of generations between Ben (who is approximately same age as Dany's parents) and Viserys, it appears that Ben's maternal great-grandmother, the woman that was married with a Dothraki, was one of Viserys Plumm's children. And why would have Viserys Plumm married his daughter to a Dothraki? And how did they ended up at Essos? Viserys Plumm was one of Aegon the Unworthy's bastards. His mother - Princess Elaena - was a sister of Daena the Defiant - the mother of Daemon I Blackfyre. Viserys and Daemon were not only first cousins thru their mothers, they were also closer in age to each other than to the King Daeron II, who was supposedly their half-brother (though I think that his father actually was Aemon the Dragonknight, Aegon IV's brother, so Daeron was a bastard). In my opinion, based on Viserys and Daemon's proximity, by blood and age, it seems likely that during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, Viserys supported the Blackfyres and not the Targaryens. So after the Blackfyres lost in the war, and Daemon's family together with Bittersteel migrated to Essos, Viserys with his own family also went with them. To provide transportation to Daemon's-loyalists, Bittersteel had sacrificed his own fiancee and niece - Calla Blackfyre, and gave her to the Redwynes. So when years later they were in a pickle (got into trouble), and had to create the Golden Company, and needed horses for their newly-created sellswords company, Viserys did the same thing as his half-brother - Aegor Bittersteel Rivers - did before him. He had sacrificed his own blood for the common good of their people - he gave his daughter to a Dothraki-Khal, as a payment for 10.000 horses for the Golden Company. What Viserys did was a parallel/repeat of what Bittersteel did. And now we have Viserys Targaryen, who basically sold his own sister - Dany - to a Dothraki-Khal, in exchange for 10.000 Dothraki-warriors. Though actually it wasn't Viserys' own idea. Instead behind this bargain was standing Varys, who is actually a Blackfyre by blood (his father was Maelys Blackfyre). So the first bargain was between Bittersteel (Aegon's bastard) and the Redwynes, and the price of transportation across the Narrow Sea was a marriage of Calla to Runceford Redwyne; the next bargain was between Viserys Plumm (Aegon's bastard) and Dothraki, the price for 10.000 horses was a marriage of Viserys' daughter to a Dothraki-Khal; and the third bargain was between Viserys Targaryen / Varys Blackfyre (a descendant of Aegon's bastard) and Dothraki, the price for 10.000 Dothraki-warriors was a marriage of Viserys' sister to a Dothraki-Khal. There's more clues that connect Redwynes-Tyrells to Blackfyres. For example, Illyrio Mopatis in his mansion has a cask of wine from private stores of Runceford Redwyne. So probably Redwynes gave that cask to Bittersteel in celebration of his niece's wedding with Runceford. Or maybe it was given to the Blackfyres sometime later to show to them that the Redwynes value their blood-connection, and thus are still loyal to the Blackfyres. There's also how Mace Tyrell had spent his time during Robert's Rebellion. In my opinion he on purpose arrived to Ashford too late to participate in the battle. And then instead of going to either support Rhaegar at the Trident, or to defend Aerys at King's Landing, Mace and his troops were wasting their time on totally unnecessary siege of Storm's End. I think he acted that way, because Tyrells (Olenna) and Varys made plans to join their forces for the Golden Company's invasion into the 7K, when one of the sides of the war will be defeated by the other side. They were intending to finish off "the last man standing". Though because of majority of the 7K's uniting thru political marriages, those plans fell apart. And instead Varys had to wait for years for another opportunity to get the Iron Throne. So he made a bargain with the Tyrells - fAegon was supposed to marry with Margaery, then the Reachmen would have supported Golden Company during the Sixth Blackfyre Rebellion. Though the Tyrells got tired of waiting and instead made a deal with Renly Baratheon. Also that daughter of Viserys Plumm that had married with a Dothraki-Khal, one of her children was a grandfather of Brown Ben Plumm, and one of her other children was a grandparent of Khal Drogo. So both Ben and Drogo are Aegon IV's 3-times-great-grandchildren and partially dragonseeds. This explains why Rhaego has silver-gold hair and violet eyes - both of his parents are carriers of Targaryen-genes. Only in Drogo's case those genes were recessive. In GRRM's books everything is connected and one clue leads to another. For example, like Rhaego's Valyrian coloration and Brown Ben Plumm being partially Dothraki, is an evidence of Khal Drogo also being a descendant of Viserys Plumm. And the current bargain between the dragonseeds and Dothraki (Viserys and Drogo) is a parallel to the previous one (Viserys Plumm and Dothraki-Khal). And the casket of wine in Illyrio's mansion is another thread that connects Illyrio/Varys to the Redwynes/Tyrells. So that's how Olenna Tyrell nee Redwyne is Calla Blackfyre's daughter. That's the reason why the name of Olenna's mother was withheld by GRRM from the readers. Something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted September 27, 2021 Author Share Posted September 27, 2021 4 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said: I stopped reading after this It seems that I overestimated you, instead of people like these - 23 hours ago, Megorova said: Don't be like those readers that say - "I have read the books, but I didn't saw in them what you wrote in your theories, thus you're wrong and your theories are cracpot". you are one of those that just stop reading whenever they don't agree with something. So on my part it was a mute point to write to you 23 hours ago, Megorova said: keep your mind open to all the possibilities, don't just immediately refute those elements, that in your opinion don't fit into the concept of ASOIAF's plot. Take those elements, those clues/bricks/jigsaw pieces, and try to put each of them in their place on the Big Picture. Then you'll see that actually all of them together do fit with all the others, known and obvious, elements of ASOIAF. Just try. What's the point of presenting to you any arguments, if you didn't even bothered with reading what I wrote before? I'll try for the last time, and you - read everything that I will write and actully think about it. Ok? 4 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said: Just to be clear, you simultaneously believe that: GRRM told an artist to use the “same” hairline for Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys, to show that they’re the same person, but also that GRRM is not willing to tell the comic artist Dunk’s hair color because THAT is too much of a spoiler? TWOIAF-book is a canon. That comic ISN'T. There's a HUGE difference between those two medias. Same as there was a lot of different elements between ASOIAF-books and The Game of Thrones TV-show. Many episodes of The Game of Thrones were script-written by GRRM himself, nevertheless whatever had happened in the show, has zero relevance for what is going to happen in the books. Thus, just because in that comic Dunk is depicted as dark-haired, it doesn't mean that in proto-ASOIAF-books he is also dark-haired. Is that clear? 4 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said: The other thing that stands out of all of this is that you rely too heavily on external sources rather than the information presented in the main text of ASOIAF. Most readers will not have read F&B, the world book, or Dunk+Egg. That's their loss. Just because they haven't read those books, doesn't mean that GRRM isn't going to use any elements from those books in ASOIAF. 4 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said: The identity of Dunk as a likely ancestor of certain characters, like Brienne with her shield, is an Easter egg for the super fans, but almost certainly not more than that. If he’s the Blackfyre legacy of as many characters as you claim, it will be entirely out of left field for the majority of viewers. Which will be a result of their own oversight. 4 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said: Here’s how we know this: the word “Dunk” does not appear once and the name “Duncan” appears only six times in the entirety of A Song of Ice and Fire. Of those, half are referring to Prince Duncan. The mentions are: Once in ASOS, Jaime VIII when he is listing previous Lord Commanders of the Kingsguard Later in that same chapter when Jaime is reading Barristan Selmy’s entry in the white book, it says “he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. . . .defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.” In AFFC, Sam II, Maester Aemon says that King Aegon V “insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch.” In ADWD, The Discarded Knight, Barristan thinks “Afterward Prince Duncan helped him to his feet and removed his helm.” Compare that to other historical figures: Jenny of Oldstones gets eight mentions and Bittersteel gets sixteen mentions by that name alone. That's the reason why Dunk has HIS OWN SEPARATE BOOK-SERIES. Because he is THAT important. In my opinion reading ASOIAF without reading its companion books is similar to watching The Avengers quadrilogy without preliminarily (or in parallel) also watching the Iron Man trilogy, Thor trilogy, Doctor Strange movie, new Spider Man movies, Captain Marvell movie, Captain America's movies, Guardians of the Galaxy movies, Ant-Man & Ant-Man and the Wasp movies, etc. Of course, it's not strictly necessary to watch all those movies before watching The Avengers 1-4. Though, if you haven't watched those movies then you won't know backgrounds and motivations of all those other characters. You will be totally oblivious why Tony Stark is hugging Spider-Man and even risked his own life to get him back, or how did the Ant-Man got stuck in that quantum-machine, or who is this Doctor Strange and why his cape is flying on its own, or who is that green-skinned chick that hit Peter Quill, or who is this Captain Marvel and how does she know Nick Fury or why is she so frikish powerful and what's the source of that power, and so on. And all that will be entirely your own loss and result of your own oversight. Same with ASOIAF. If you don't want to know more, then you can just stick with the main series. Though, when certain events will happen there, for you they will happen... how did you phrased it? - "out of left field". Even though GRRM did build foundation/backgrounds/premises for all those upcoming events in ASOIAF's companion books. 5 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said: This theory is little more than well-thought out fan fiction We'll see. 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Megorova Posted October 14, 2021 Author Share Posted October 14, 2021 I just recently realised that Dunk has spent on the streets of King's Landing a very short amount of time. Maybe a month, or maybe even just a couple of weeks. The Battle at the Redgrass Field had occurred near the end of the Rebellion. Quentyn Ball was killed shortly prior that battle. That's when his assassin has brought little Dunk to King's Landing, and left him at the Flea Bottom. During the Redgrass battle Ser Arlan's squire got killed. So after the battle Ser Arlan went to King's Landing, to find there a replacement. He needed a kid, so he went to the Flea Bottom, where there was a lot of orphans and street urchins. Ser Arlan was intending to take one of them as his new squire, and to give his care and protection to that boy. And that's when he found Dunk. A few days ago, while discussing a different topic, I looked at the map of Westeros and realised that the Redgrass Field is actually located really close to King's Landing. According to Ned's POV and Catelyn's POV it takes two weeks to get from KL to the Crossroad's Inn. And the distance between the KL and the Redgrass Field is three times shorter than the distance between KL and the Crossroad's Inn. So it would have taken Ser Arlan approximately 5 days to get to KL. Dunk was brought there shortly prior the battle, and Ser Arlan got there a week or so after the battle. That's why - 1. Dunk had no memories of the time he had spent at the Flee Bottom, aside from him chasing pigs with a couple of other kids, when Ser Arlan found him; 2. No one there knew Dunk's name; 3. No one there knew who were Dunk's parents. That's because Dunk was a newcomer, so the locals haven't had an opportunity to get to know him, and then Arlan came and took him away. According to what Dunk thought about his age, at the time when Arlan found him, he was 5 or 6 years old. Though the children of that age already have a lot of memories. Even though Dunk thought about himself that he was thick as a castle wall, actually he wasn't stupid or dimwitted. At the time when Dunk was introduced to the readers in The Hedge Knight novel, Dunk has spent with Ser Arlan a bit less than 13 years (from late 196 to 209), so it's kind of weird that he didn't remembered something more about his life at KL, before Ser Arlan took him from there. Though all that can be easily explained with this: Dunk has spent just a few weeks on the streets of KL, and at that time he was not 5-6, but only 3-4 years old. The first year of his life Dunk had spent at Dorne, where he was born. Then for the next 6 or so months he and his wet-nurse and their escorts were traveling via land from Dorne to the Crownlands, to Daemon's castle that was located somewhere near or at Duskendale. It's likely that Rohanne of Tyrosh refused to accept her husband's bastard at their house, thus the child was then taken elsewhere. It's likely that during the Rebellion he was several times relocated between different safe houses. Then, when Quentyn Ball was intending to bring Dunk to another safe house, he was killed and Dunk was brought to the Flee Bottom. That's why Dunk didn't remembered much of anything before his life with Arlan. He was Princess Daenerys' bastard, so it's likely that after she gave birth to him, she wasn't spending much time with him. Because she had other children, and also there was her husband. So it's likely that even though Dunk has spent the first year of his life in the same place - somewhere at Dorne, at that time he was taken care of and attended by various people, different people - servants, nannies, wet-nurses, and his mother was rarely present in his life. Then he was traveling for some time between Dorne and Crownlands, and around him again the people and places were changing. After arriving to his father, Dunk again changed hands multiple times - was given from one caretaker to the other. Then there was a chaos of the KL's streets, where he got abandoned. And then Ser Arlan found him, and became the first constant in Dunk's life. Everything else, before Dunk's time with Arlan, in Dunk's memories was a blur - constantly changing people and places, zero stability and nothing permanent, until Arlan, who became the first constant in Dunk's life. At the time when Arlan found Dunk, the boy was 3-4 years old. Grown up people usually do have at least a few memories from the time when they were babies. But Dunk (in The Hedge Knight) didn't remembered anything, because his early life was filled with chaos and constant changing of places and people around him, that's why he had no early childhood memories - because those early years of his life passed like a blur. And there was no memories about the time that he had spent at King's Landing before Arlan, because he had spend there just a few weeks. So this part in my Opening Post - On 5/17/2021 at 4:45 PM, Megorova said: The Chipped Garnet & His Name In 198 AC Ser Arlan of Pennytree met Daemon’s child on the streets of King’s Landing, and out of pity took him as his squire. is wrong. Instead they have met in 196 AC. Because otherwise Ser Arlan would have remained squireless for those two years after his first squire's death. And there was no reason for that. Because there was plenty of unwanted kids, that were living nearby the Redgrass Field, at the streets of King's Landing. There was no reason for Arlan to wait before taking a new squire, and thus he did just that, shortly after the battle, still in 196 AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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