Swan Song part 8/16. The real cause of the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion

[Megorova]

On the surface, it seems that the reason the Blackfyres came to Westeros in 236 AC was to avenge for the death of their kin, same as during the Third Rebellion. Though when previously Bittersteel and Golden Company were intending to avenge Daemon II’s death, their invasion had failed - they lost Blackfyre sword and another of their kin, Haegon I. So it doesn’t make sense that they would have made the same mistake again. Previously, they had won nothing but suffered great losses, which made me think that this time, aside from avenging Aenys’ death, there could have been some other additional reason that had brought to Westeros the Fourth Rebellion. To figure out what is that other reason, we need to go three years back into the past, before the Rebellion, to the events that had preceded it.

The Great Council

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When King Maekar died in battle in 233 AC, whilst leading his army against a rebellious lord on the Dornish Marches, considerable confusion arose as to the succession. Rather than risk another Dance of the Dragons, the King’s Hand, Bloodraven, elected to call a Great Council to decide the matter.

… Even as the Great Council was debating, however, another claimant appeared in King’s Landing: none other than Aenys Blackfyre, the fifth of the Black Dragon’s seven sons. When the Great Council had first been announced, Aenys had written from exile in Tyrosh, putting forward his case in the hope that his words might win him the Iron Throne that his forebears had thrice failed to win with their swords. Bloodraven, the King’s Hand, had responded by offering him a safe conduct, so the pretender might come to King’s Landing and present his claim in person.

Unwisely, Aenys accepted. Yet hardly had he entered the city when the gold cloaks seized hold of him and dragged him to the Red Keep, where his head was struck off forthwith and presented to the lords of the Great Council, as a warning to any who might still have Blackfyre sympathies. - TWOIAF, Maekar I.

Aenys was not an idiot; he hadn’t completely trusted Bloodraven’s promises. So when he went to attend the Great Council, he hadn’t brought his family with him. Instead, upon arriving to Westeros, he made a brief detour to visit a trusted friend who also was a distant relative of the Blackfyres. Afterwards, Aenys had left his family at his friend’s castle. He had to make that detour in secret from the Targaryens, Bloodraven and his spies, so it’s a logical assumption that the castle at which he left his family was located somewhere at the coastline. That way, Aenys could quickly drop them off, and then his ship continued sailing towards King’s Landing. So when Aenys was executed, his family continued to live at their relative’s castle for another three years after his death.

The Fourth Rebellion

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In 236 AC, as a cruel six-year-long winter drew to a close, the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion saw the self-styled King Daemon III Blackfyre, son of Haegon and grandson of Daemon I, cross the narrow sea with Bittersteel and the Golden Company at his back, in a fresh attempt to seize the Iron Throne.

The invaders landed on Massey’s Hook, south of Blackwater Bay, but few rallied to their banners. King Aegon V himself rode out to meet them, with his three sons by his side. In the Battle of Wendwater Bridge, the Blackfyres suffered a shattering defeat, and Daemon III was slain by the Kingsguard knight Ser Duncan the Tall, the hedge knight for whom “Egg” had served as a squire. Bittersteel eluded capture and escaped once again, only to emerge a few years later in the Disputed Lands, fighting with his sellswords in a meaningful skirmish between Tyrosh and Myr. Ser Aegor Rivers was sixty-nine years of age when he fell, and it is said he died as he had lived, with a sword in his hand and defiance upon his lips. Yet his legacy would live on in the Golden Company and the Blackfyre line he had served and protected.  -TWOIAF, Aegon V.

While Aenys’ family was strangled at the 7K, one of his daughters (or maybe even a granddaughter) hooked up with a local guy and, in 236 AC, gave birth to twin-boys. Then her family had sent a message to their relatives in Tyrosh and that’s one of the reasons the Blackfyres came to Westeros with their Fourth Rebellion (the other reason was to avenge Aenys’ death). Afterwards, Bittersteel’s agents had successfully retrieved Aenys family. Though there was one complication, the twins’ father refused to hand over both of his children, thus the boys were separated. The older one stayed with his father, and the younger one was taken away by his mother’s relatives. It’s likely that the boys’ mother either died in childbed or went back to Tyrosh with the rest of Aenys’ family.

The younger boy was named Daemon in honor of Daemon III Blackfyre, who died in the span of the Fourth Rebellion. 22 years later, Daemon the Unnumbered was killed by his cousin Maelys the Monstrous. Maelys killed Daemon’s destrier with a single punch and then twisted Daemon’s head until it was torn from his shoulders. He wanted Daemon’s twin to know who killed his brother, and thus the detailed account of Daemon’s death was passed on to the 7K.

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In 258 AC on Essos, another challenge rose to Aegon’s reign, when nine outlaws, exiles, pirates, and sellsword captains met in the Disputed Lands beneath the Tree of Crowns to form an unholy alliance. The Band of Nine swore their oath of mutual aid and support in carving out kingdoms for each of their members. Amongst them was the last Blackfyre, Maelys the Monstrous, who had command of the Golden Company, and the kingdom they pledged to win for him was the Seven Kingdoms. Prince Duncan, when told of the pact, famously remarked that crowns were being sold nine a penny; thereafter the Band of Nine became known as the Ninepenny Kings in Westeros. - TWOIAF, Aegon V.

The War of the Ninepenny Kings

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Command of the Targaryen host passed to the new young Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull. Hightower and his men were hard-pressed for a time, but as the war hung in the balance, a young knight named Ser Barristan Selmy slew Maelys in single combat, winning undying renown and deciding the issue in a stroke, for the remainder of the Ninepenny Kings had little or no interest in Westeros and soon fell back to their own domains. Maelys the Monstrous was the fifth and last of the Blackfyre Pretenders; with his death, the curse that Aegon the Unworthy had inflicted on the Seven Kingdoms by giving his sword to his bastard son was finally ended. - TWOIAF, Jaehaerys II.

I think that during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, Barristan Selmy had specifically targeted Maelys the Monstrous because he had a personal vendetta against Maelys. In my opinion, Daemon Blackfyre was Barristan’s twin-brother. So to avenge Daemon’s death, Barristan wanted to personally settle a score with his brother’s murderer and to avenge his death - an eye for an eye, or blood for blood.

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He wondered what Barristan Selmy would think of riding into battle with the Golden Company. During the War of the Ninepenny Kings, Selmy had cut a bloody path through their ranks to slay the last of the Blackfyre Pretenders. - ADWD, Tyrion II.

In Jaime Lannister’s entry in the White Book, both of his parents’ names were recorded, though in Barristan’s entry the name of his mother is omitted, possibly because she was a Blackfyre. See?

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Ser Jaime of House Lannister. Firstborn son of Lord Tywin and Lady Joanna of Casterly Rock.

Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. - ASOS, Jaime VIII.

Furthermore, Barristan being Lyonel’s firstborn son implicates that, besides Barristan, his father also had at least one more son. Though from Barristan’s memories about his youth and family, we know this:

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“I was chosen for the White Swords in my twenty-third year. It was all I had ever dreamed, from the moment I first took sword in hand. I gave up all claim to my ancestral keep. The girl I was to wed married my cousin in my place, I had no need of land or sons, my life would be lived for the realm.” - AGOT, Sansa V.

Barristan’s ex-fiancée married with his cousin, not his brother. Which means that by the time when Barristan became a Kingsguard, in late 260 AC, his younger brother, Daemon, was already dead and Lyonel had no other sons. Thus, the girl instead married one of Lyonel’s nephews.

The castle at which Aenys Blackfyre left his family and where Barristan’s parents met each other, is Stonehelm, the seat of House Swann. Blackfyres and Swanns are bloodrelated thru Johanna Swann, who was Larra Rogare’s mother and Daemon Blackfyre’s great-grandmother. So, through his mother, Barristan is also bloodrelated to Swanns.

Barristan’s age

Let’s define the year of Barristan’s birth.

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“Last year he unhorsed the Hound, and it was only four years ago that he was champion.” - AGOT, Ned V.

Champion of the tourney at King’s Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I Baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age. - ASOS, Jaime VIII.

The events narrated in AGOT Ned V are occurring past the middle of 298 AC. Barristan became the champion of the KL’s tournament in 294 AC before his birthday of that year. At that time he was still 57, and later that year he turned 58. Barristan was dismissed from the Kingsguard in the late 298, sometime after his 61st birthday. Thus, the year of his birth is 236 AC, and he was born near the end of the year. Let’s compare this conclusion with the other known information about Barristan’s age at certain events in his life.

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Selmy had won that name when he was ten years old, a new-made squire, yet so vain and proud and foolish that he got it in his head that he could joust with tried and proven knights.

… Fifty-three years ago. - ADWD, The Discarded Knight.

Named “the Bold” in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney at Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King’s Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

... Yet it seemed like only yesterday that he had been raised to knighthood, after the tourney at King’s Landing. He could still recall the touch of King Aegon’s sword upon his shoulder, light as a maiden’s kiss. His words had caught in his throat when he spoke his vows. At the feast that night he had eaten ribs of wild boar, prepared the Dornish way with dragon peppers, so hot they burned his mouth. Forty-seven years, and the taste still lingered in his memory, yet he could not have said what he had supped on ten days ago if all seven kingdoms had depended on it.

… Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon’s son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys’s son Aerys.” - ADWD, The Queensguard.

In 260 AC, his lordship landed Targaryen armies upon three of the Stepstones, and the War of the Ninepenny Kings turned bloody. Battle raged across the islands and the channels between for most of that year. - TWOW, Jaehaerys II.

Chapters “The Discarded Knight” and “The Queensguard” are happening in the first half of 300 AC. In those chapters Barristan, who at that moment in time is 63 years old, is reminiscing about his past - 53 years ago (in the first half of 247 AC), when he was 10 years old, he participated as the mystery knight in the tournament at Blackhaven; 47 years ago (in the first half of 253 AC), when he was aged 16, he became a knight; in the late 260 AC (before his birthday of that year) he joined the Kingsguard. Though there’s no mentioning of 40 years passing since him becoming a Kingsguard, which means that the 40th anniversary is still ahead and will occur later in 300 AC. Based on all that information, it seems that Barristan was born in September-December or ninth-twelfth moon of 236 AC. So there is a viable possibility that the real cause that had brought Golden Company to Westeros in 236 AC was either Barristan’s birth or the information about his mother’s pregnancy.

The clues about his Blackfyre-origin

1. His name has both “ae” and “ey” in it, even though it’s less obvious than in more traditional Aerys or Rhaenys, Baratheon or Targaryen - Barristan Selmy.

2. His eyes are blue, and when he was young, his hair was blond. His Valyrian coloring means that he could be a dragonseed.

3. House Selmy are Marcher lords, same as House Swann. Marcher lords are in anty-Dornish faction, and they are Blackfyre-loyalists.

4. Blackfyres and Swanns are bloodrelated. That’s why in his early youth Barristan squired for Ser Manfred Swann.

5. When Barristan was 10 years old, he was given a nickname from Prince Duncan the Small. Duncan was named by his father in honor of his best friend, Duncan the Tall, who was a secret son of Daemon I Blackfyre.

6. There are multiple parallels between Dunk and Barristan, because both of them are secret Blackfyres:

- They are connected thru Blackhaven (which they had visited in 205 AC and 247 AC, when they were 10 years old and later that year turning 11) and Manfreds (Dondarrion and Swann, both of whom are bloodrelated to Targaryens).

- Both were kinslayers - during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, Dunk killed his nephew, Daemon III, and Barristan killed his cousin, also during one of the Blackfyre Rebellions.

- Both Duncan and Barristan were Lord Commanders of the Kingsguard, and were considered the greatest knights of their time.

- Both participated in tournaments as a mystery knight.

- Unknowingly to them, both had become fathers already after joining the Kingsguard (more on this topic you can read in SS part 9 and 10).

7. Barristan saved King Aerys during the Defiance of Duskendale. Daemon Blackfyre’s mother was Daena the Defiant, and his castle was located somewhere near Duskendale.

8. Brienne Tarth is one of Duncan the Tall’s descendants, same as her mother, Wenda the White Fawn, who was an ex-member of the Kingswood Brotherhood, and thus had omitted meeting Barristan in 281 AC, the Hound, whom Barristan unhorsed in 297 AC, and Gerris Drinkwater, whom Barristan met at Meereen in 300 AC.

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Renly shook his head. “The Lannisters told him he was too old and gave his cloak to the Hound. I’m told he left King’s Landing vowing to take up service with the true king. That cloak Brienne claimed today was the one I was keeping for Selmy, in hopes that he might offer me his sword.” - ACOK, Catelyn II.

All five of them are bloodrelated.

9. For a man of his age, he has an unusually good health and virility, which could be easily explained if he is a dragonseed, and thus has a superior blood.

The Defiance of Duskendale and other feats of valor

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Ser Barristan offered to enter the town in secret, find his way to the Dun Fort, and spirit the king to safety. Selmy had been known as Barristan the Bold since his youth, but this was a boldness that Tywin Lannister felt bordered on madness. Yet such was his respect for the prowess and courage of Ser Barristan that he gave him a day to attempt his plan before storming Duskendale.

The songs of Ser Barristan’s daring rescue of the king are many, and, for a rarity, the singers hardly had to embroider it. Ser Barristan did indeed scale the walls unseen in the dark of the night, using nothing but his bare hands, and he did disguise himself as a hooded beggar as he made his way to the Dun Fort. It is true, as well, that he managed to scale the walls of the Dun Fort in turn, killing a guard on the wallwalk before he could raise the alarm. Then, by stealth and courage, he found his way to the dungeon where the king was being kept. By the time he had Aerys Targaryen out of the dungeon, however, the king’s absence had been noted, and the hue and cry went up. And then the true breadth of Ser Barristan’s heroism was revealed, for he stood and fought rather than surrender himself or his king.

And not only did he fight, but he struck first, taking Lord Darklyn’s good-brother and master-at-arms, Ser Symon Hollard, and a pair of guards unawares, slaying them all-and so avenging the death of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt of the Kingsguard, who had been killed at Hollard’s hand. He hurried with the king to the stables, fighting his way through those who tried to intervene, and the two were able to ride out of Dun Fort before the castle’s gates could be closed. Then there was the wild ride through the streets of Duskendale, while horns and trumpets sounded the alarm, and the race up to the walls as Lord Tywin’s archers attempted to clear it of defenders. - TWOIAF, Aerys II.

"The hour of the wolf. The blackest part of night, when all the world’s asleep.” He had first heard those words from Tywin Lannister outside the walls of Duskendale. He gave me a day to bring out Aerys. Unless I returned with the king by dawn of the following day, he would take the town with steel and fire, he told me. It was the hour of the wolf when I went in and the hour of the wolf when we emerged. - ADWD, The Kingbreaker.

Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale, despite an arrow wound in the chest. - ASOS, Jaime VIII.

The Defiance of Duskendale occurred in 277 AC. Barristan at that time was 40-41 years old. Despite his age, he managed to scale the city’s walls barehanded, then the walls of the Dun Fort. He killed a guard on the wallwalk, then went down into the dungeons and brought Aerys out. On the way out, he also managed to catch and kill unaware three more people - Symon Hollard and two guards. On the way to the stables, he fought his way through those who tried to stop them. They managed to get out of Dun Fort before the guards closed the gates. Then they raced through Duskendale. And when they approached the walls of the city, Barristan was shot with an arrow.

Considering that the only archers mentioned then were Tywin’s, I think that Barristan got shot by one of them. Because that archer was a Faceless Man and his real target was Aerys, not Barristan.

Read in ACOK Dany V how Barristan saved Daenerys from the manticore; in ASOS Dany V thru his fight against Mero the Titan’s Bastard; in ADWD Dany II about how Barristan, while fighting multiple opponents and killing several of them, managed to get out of the Red Keep and then thru the River Gate out of the city; and in ADWD’s chapter The Kingbreaker read thru his fight with Khrazz.

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“On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert’s friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, ‘I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,’ and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan’s wounds.” - AGOT, Ned VIII.

I could not help Prince Lewyn on the Trident, but I can help his nephew now. - ADWD, The Discarded Knight.

Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. - ASOS, Jaime VIII.

Based on all the information known about Barristan - from the detailed account of what he had done at Duskendale, from the quotes above and the scenes of his fights from those chapters that I recommended to read thru, also how he had previously defeated at tournaments Arthur Dayne, Oberyn Martell, Rhaegar Targaryen, Robert Baratheon, the Hound, and other formidable opponents that were 20-30 years younger than him - I made this conclusion - for a man of his age it should be impossible to accomplish all those deeds that were performed by Barristan. No amount of experience and training - not even with addition of an exceptional luck - can explain how he can exhibit such an unbelievably high level of martial prowess. Maybe I figured out an explanation of how Barristan can do what he does. In my opinion, there is a possibility that Barristan has a gift of foresight, though it’s unlike anything else that we have seen thus far as being manifested by the other dragondreamers.

Could be that when something bad or dangerous is going to happen in the proximity to Barristan, before it actually happens, he has a preview-vision of the approaching danger. His visions are void of all that useless symbolism (like in Daemon II’s dream about a dragon rising at Whitewalls, or in Daeron the Drunken’s dream about a black dragon falling on top of Duncan the Tall, or in Dany’s visions in the House of the Undying where she saw a mummer’s dragon), he sees exactly what will happen and how will it happen. Those visions are very precise, though there’s one setback - his sense of premonition is short-ranged, it gives him an insight into the future no more than 1-2 minutes ahead of the present time, or maybe even less.

That’s how he was able to protect Dany from the manticore, while even those people that were in her proximity hadn’t even realized what was happening. At Duskendale Barristan foresaw an arrow killing Aerys, though by the time when he had reached the King it was already too late to push him out of the arrow’s path. Thus, he had stepped in front of Aerys and that’s how Barristan got wounded by an arrow in the chest. At the Trident his premonition was too late to warn him about Robert getting to Rhaegar, though he still tried to save him, and also tried to save Lewyn Martell, whose death Barristan foresaw at the same moment as he saw Rhaegar’s death. He got wounded by arrow, spear, and sword while he was trying to get to them.

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Mero slashed at his face. The old man jerked back, cat-quick. The staff thumped Mero’s ribs, sending him reeling. Arstan splashed sideways, parried a looping cut, danced away from a second, checked a third mid-swing. The moves were so fast she could hardly follow. - ASOS, Dany V.

The two men were of a height, but Khrazz was two stone heavier and forty years younger…

... For the first time all day, Selmy felt certain. This is what I was made for, he thought. The dance, the sweet steel song, a sword in my hand and a foe before me.

The pit fighter was fast, blazing fast, as quick as any man Ser Barristan had ever fought. In those big hands, the arakh became a whistling blur, a steel storm that seemed to come at the old knight from three directions at once. Most of the cuts were aimed at his head. Khrazz was no fool. Without a helm, Selmy was most vulnerable above the neck.

He blocked the blows calmly, his longsword meeting each slash and turning it aside. The blades rang and rang again.

… He took the king’s arm and led him from the bedchamber, feeling strangely light-headed, almost drunk.” - ADWD, The Kingbreaker.

It’s easy to fight against younger, stronger and faster opponents, if you know exactly what will they do, how they will attack you. It doesn’t matter how fast or how strong they are, if you can stop each attack midswing, or even before the opponent will make a move. Thanks to his ability, Barristan was a man ahead of his time, literally. Though the time is finally catching up to him, and even his ability to predict the future can no longer compensate for all the setbacks of his old age. Even while knowing the future, now it became too hard for him to react in time to the approaching danger.

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Ten years ago I would have sensed what Daenerys meant to do. Ten years ago I would have been quick enough to stop her. Instead he had stood befuddled as she leapt into the pit, shouting her name, then running uselessly after her across the scarlet sands. I am become old and slow. Small wonder Naharis mocked him as Ser Grandfather. - ADWD, The Queensguard.

Or maybe I’m reading too much into all of this, and he doesn’t have a gift of foresight. Though whether Barristan has or doesn’t have some special ability, he’s undoubtedly not only the greatest knight of his time, but also one of the most respected and celebrated heroes of the 7K. Nevertheless, there is a likely possibility - supported by multiple clues in the books - that same as Duncan the Tall, Barristan Selmy is a secret Blackfyre and it was his birth that had instigated one of the Blackfyre Rebellions.

To be continued.

Welcome and discuss.

[Lady_Qohor]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

1. His name has both “ae” and “ey” in it, even though it’s less obvious than in more traditional Aerys or Rhaenys, Baratheon or Targaryen - Barristan Selmy.

I think you need to be careful about linking these letters to Targaryen blood when they are used separately as "a", "e" and "y". These are very common letters present in lots of names.

For example by the above logic, the following characters all have Targaryen blood:

Catelyn Tully

Samwell Tarly

Arys Oakheart

Tywin Lannister

Mance Rayder

Almost anyone in House Greyjoy (most have an 'a' in their first name)

Almost anyone in House Tyrell (most have an 'a' in their first name)

Almost anyone in House Frey (most have an 'a' in their first name)

Almost anyone in House Royce (most have an 'a' in their first name)

Almost anyone in House Redwyne (most have an 'a' in their first name)

Any member of House Dayne (going back ten thousand years)

[Megorova]

21 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

I think you need to be careful about linking these letters to Targaryen blood when they are used separately as "a", "e" and "y". These are very common letters present in lots of names.

I think that those "ae" and "ey" elements are hints about people with names like that being dragonseeds, only if besides their names those people are also surrounded by other dragon-related symbolism and patterns. Like in Ambrose's case from SS-part 1 - there are plenty of additional connections/similarities between him and the Targaryens, besides him having "ae" in his name.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 5/18/2021 at 8:03 AM, Megorova said:

I think that those "ae" and "ey" elements are hints about people with names like that being dragonseeds, only if besides their names those people are also surrounded by other dragon-related symbolism and patterns. Like in Ambrose's case from SS-part 1 - there are plenty of additional connections/similarities between him and the Targaryens, besides him having "ae" in his name.

The "ae" Valyrian connection has to do with actual "ae" names - when the e immediately follows the a like it does within my quotation marks. Ambrose does not have "ae" in it. Same thing with "ey" which I don't think even show up in that immediate order in any Valyrian name. It's just that there's a lot of Valyrian names that end in "ys" or something similar (e.g. Daenerys, Daenys, Rhaenys, Jaehaerys, Aerys, Viserys, Aenys, etc.) and e is a very common vowel in Valyrian names so there's usually an e at some point in the word before that. The "ys" suffix is a much better tell of a Valyrian name.

[Megorova]

On 5/19/2021 at 8:23 PM, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Same thing with "ey" which I don't think even show up in that immediate order in any Valyrian name. It's just that there's a lot of Valyrian names that end in "ys" or something similar (e.g. Daenerys, Daenys, Rhaenys, Jaehaerys, Aerys, Viserys, Aenys, etc.)

I meant "ey" like here thru eny ery ely - Aenys, Rhaenys, Aerys, Daenerys, Aelyx, Maelys.

[Aebram]

Knowing something about cryptography, I can tell you that E is the most common letter in the English language; and A is the third most common. So it's not surprising that there are lots of names that contain both of these letters. (In case anyone's wondering, the complete sequence is usually given as ETAONRISHDLFCMUGYPWBVKXJQZ, although some sourcess list them in a slightly different order.)

The "ae" combination and "-ys" ending are rare in English, so those might be hints about a character's parents.  But I wouldn't read too much into other usages of those letters.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 5/22/2021 at 8:57 AM, Megorova said:

I meant "ey" like here thru eny ery ely - Aenys, Rhaenys, Aerys, Daenerys, Aelyx, Maelys.

All examples that end in "ys" or "yx" and aside from the second e in Daenerys, the e is part of an immediate "ae" pairing. These specific endings and pairing are common in Valyrian names, where I think you go wrong is when you try to argue that random names that don't look or sound Valryian at all are secretly Valryian as long as they have a and e or e and y at some point, even if they're completely separate from one another and don't resemble any of the traditional Valyrian name markers. Ambrose is not an "ae" name because the a and e are not together like they are in all the names you cited, they're at complete opposite ends of the word, there's no basis for thinking it's Valryian. The same goes for Barristan Selmy and similar examples.

[Megorova]

14 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

All examples that end in "ys" or "yx" and aside from the second e in Daenerys, the e is part of an immediate "ae" pairing.

Not all. Viserys, Visenya, Lucerys, Joffrey (Velaryon, Rhaenyra's son), Jocelyn (Penrose, daughter of Princess Elaena). There was also Jocelyn Baratheon (dragonseed) and Jocelyn Stark (also dragonseed, because her mother - Melantha Blackwood possibly was Mya Rivers' daughter and Aegon IV granddaughter).

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Not all. Viserys, Visenya, Lucerys, Joffrey (Velaryon, Rhaenyra's son), Jocelyn (Penrose, daughter of Princess Elaena). There was also Jocelyn Baratheon (dragonseed) and Jocelyn Stark (also dragonseed, because her mother - Melantha Blackwood possibly was Mya Rivers' daughter and Aegon IV granddaughter).

I said all of your examples, not all Valyrian names. Joffrey isn't a Valyrian name, there's a Joffrey Lydden who was an Andal adventurer who married into House Lannister during the Andal conquest. We also don't know that Jocelyn is a Valryian name, "yn" is a common ending in Valyrian names, but this is also a name IRL so George might have just taken it from there, whereas the names that are known to be Valyrian are all made up. There's nothing to support the idea that e, a bunch of letters, then a y names are inherently Valyrian. It occurs in a lot of Valyrian names because y is common near the end of Valyrian names and e is an extremely common vowel so it often shows up before that. But those names generally have a distinctive overall Valyrian appearance, there's no reason to think that someone who has a name that doesn't look at all Valyrian and has no other indication of Valyrian ancestry must be secretly Valyrian if there name happens to have e and y in it. In some cases I've even seen you use nicknames to make this argument, like Pretty Maris or Brienne the Beauty, when pretty and beauty are just Common Tongue words in their universe, and there's no reason to think those words are of Valyrian origin (Brienne probably does have Valyrian ancestry, but her nickname has nothing to do with it).

[Megorova]

11 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I've even seen you use nicknames to make this argument, like Pretty Maris or Brienne the Beauty, when pretty and beauty are just Common Tongue words in their universe, and there's no reason to think those words are of Valyrian origin (Brienne probably does have Valyrian ancestry, but her nickname has nothing to do with it).

You totally misunderstood what I wrote in that other thread about Brienne and Meris. I never said/wrote that their nicknames are somehow Valyrian or are hinting at the Valyrian ancestry of those two characters. I just said about those two that both of them have mocking nicknames, nicknames that specifically mock their unatractive looks. And that besides sort of similar nicknames, in a sense that both of those nicknames are the opposite to their actual looks, those two characters also have other common characteristics. Such as - both of them are warrior women, blond, tall, with light-colored eyes, etc.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

You totally misunderstood what I wrote in that other thread about Brienne and Meris. I never said/wrote that their nicknames are somehow Valyrian or are hinting at the Valyrian ancestry of those two characters. I just said about those two that both of them have mocking nicknames, nicknames that specifically mock their unatractive looks. And that besides sort of similar nicknames, in a sense that both of those nicknames are the opposite to their actual looks, those two characters also have other common characteristics. Such as - both of them are warrior women, blond, tall, with light-colored eyes, etc.

I'm not sure what specific thread you're referring to, but I've definitely seen you highlight the fact that pretty and beauty have an e and y in them in pushing this theory.

[Frey family reunion]

On an unrelated note, I miss the corn code.

[Megorova]

19 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I'm not sure what specific thread you're referring to, but I've definitely seen you highlight the fact that pretty and beauty have an e and y in them in pushing this theory.

No, I didn't. And I meant this thread - 6/16, here's info from there, what exactly I wrote about Brienne and Meris:

On 5/17/2021 at 5:10 PM, Megorova said:

There are many similarities between Brienne and Meris (quotes are from ACOK Catelyn II, AFFC Brienne I, from ADWD Dany VII, The Windblown and The Spurned Suitor) - they have mocking nicknames (“Brienne the Beauty, they name her ... though not to her face”; “Pretty Meris,” her captain named her, though pretty was the last thing Dany would have called her.”), both of them are tall female-warriors, blond-haired with light-colored eyes (“She pulled off her greathelm, letting her hair spill free. It was yellow, the color of dirty straw, and near as brittle”, “Brienne’s eyes were large and very blue”; “When Daario brought them forward, she saw that one of them was a woman, big and blond and all in mail.”, “Pretty Meris stood cradling a crossbow, her eyes as cold and dead as two grey stones.”), disfigured faces (Brienne - “her nose had been broken more than once”; Meris - “earless, with a slit nose, deep scars in both cheeks”), and no breasts (“Out of armor, her body seemed ungainly, broad of hip and thick of limb, with hunched muscular shoulders but no bosom to speak of.”, “Her chest was more muscle than bosom.”; “If the talk he had heard was true, beneath that shirt Pretty Meris had only the scars left by the men who’d cut her breasts off.”).

I used Google to search thru all my posts (since starting Swan Song theory, since May 15th, in total I wrote 33 posts, 13 of them are Opening Posts of parts 1-13, 2 are in Small Questions Thread, 18 are in comment-section of my SS-threads) and there is no mentioning by me about ey being present in words beauty and pretty.

In my opinion this ae and ey (IN FIRST NAMES) works as a hint concerning possible Valyrian ancestry of certain characters only if it's an "ey" in combination like eny, ely, ery - like in Aenys, Aelyx, Viserys - not just some randon "e....y", like in Eysen, Erryk, Quentyn, Frey, Greyjoy, Beesbury, Norrey, Turnberry, Massey, Alebelly, Alekyne, Tawney, Avery, Botley, Reyaan, etc. And only if besides names like that (with ae and ey in them), they also have other dragon-related elements about them or around them.

I did wrote that Barristan Selmy sort of has "aey" in his name. Maybe you're confusing what I wrote concerning Barristan with what I definitely didn't wrote about Brienne and Meris and "ey" in their nickames.

I did mentioned that Ambrose could be one of those cases with "ae" not in a combination together like in Daeron, Rhaegar, Aegon.

Besides Ambrose there are also other names in ASOIAF that begin with a and end with e, like - Aladale, Alerie Hightower, Alayne Baelish, Alyce, Aglantine, Aregelle, Aladore, etc. Though none of those other characters with "a.....e" in their names owned a dragon egg, nor is it known about the mothers of those characters that they had spent a night with Aegon the Unworthy, nor were those characters spared by Targaryens after commiting high treason.

"a....e" in Ambrose's name could be a part of the pattern which GRRM had used in naming of dragonseed-characters in ASOIAF. Or maybe Ambrose having "a....e" name is not a part of the pattern, though he definitely was one of Aegon's bastards. I'm 1000000% sure about him, because nothing else explains all the things about him - his Valyrian looks, him owning a dragon egg, him being spared by Bloodraven, etc.

Also, concerning thia ae ey patterns, I wrote in another thread this:

On 5/16/2021 at 8:03 PM, Megorova said:

- nearly all Valyrian names have “ae” or “ey” in them, some even have both;

Targaryen, Velaryon, Baratheon, Dayne.

Aegon, Aenar, Aerion, Aenys, Aerys, Aelyx, Alysanne, Aerea, Aemon, Aemma Arryn (half-Targaryen), Aelor and Aelora, Aelinor Penrose (wife and cousin of Aerys I), Baela, Baelon, Baelor, Daenerys, Daemon, Daeron, Daemion, Daella, Daena, Daenora, Daenaera Velaryon (wife of Aegon III), Elaena, Gael, Helaena, Jaehaerys, Jaehaera, Jacaerys, Joffrey, Laena and Laenor (Velaryons), Lucerys, Maelys, Maegor, Maegon, Maelor, Maegelle, Naerys, Rhae, Rhaella, Rhaelle, Rhaenys, Rhaenyra, Rhaegar, Rhaegel, Saera, Shaena, Shaera, Viserys, Visenya, Valerion, Vaegon, Vaella.

If I haven't missed someone, then on the entirety of the Targaryen family tree there was only four Targaryens that fell out of "ae"/"ey" pattern - Viserra (daughter of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne), Matarys and Valarr (sons of Baelor Breakspear), Alyssa Targaryen (mother of Viserys I). Though even those four had "ae" in their family name - Targaryen.

Only four characters on the Targaryen family tree don't have ae or ey in their names (there are more than 100 people on that family tree, so those 4 are actually less than 4%, and the other >96% of Targaryens have ae or ey in their names). So it's a fact that - majority of Targaryens were named thru usage of ae or ey pattern. 96% is a majority. If 96% of Targaryens have either ae or ey in their names, then IT IS A PATTERN.

Ambrose doesn't have a connected ae in his name, though he own a dragon egg and Aegon IV had sex with his mother, so it's likely that Ambrose is a dragonseed. I didn't wrote about ey being present in words pretty and beauty, I wrote that Meris and Brienne are possibly secret dragonseeds and Duncan the Tall's descendants based on the other elements connected to them. Also, it's obvious that not all dragonseeds in the books have Valyrian names. For example Jon Snow, he is Rhaegar Targaryen's son, but his name doesn't have ae nor ey, same with Lyanna Stark - she was a dragonseed, though she didn't had a "patterned"-name. So this ae/ey element is just a part of a pattern, and this pattern could be used or not used by GRRM in this or that case. Though, mostly he did used it, because - >96% of Targaryens have ae or ey in their names, that's a fact.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Daynes are not Targs per GRRM himself and how is Lyanna a dragonseed?

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, I didn't. And I meant this thread - 6/16, here's info from there, what exactly I wrote about Brienne and Meris:

I didn't say it was this thread and I'm not going to pour through your comment history, but you've definitely done that.

 

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though, mostly he did used it, because - >96% of Targaryens have ae or ey in their names, that's a fact.

I'm not disputing that "ae" is common in Valyrian names, or that there's a lot of y's near the end in names that at some point have an e. I'm disputing that it's supposed to be a hint that characters are dragonseeds if they have names that are not at all Valyrian and in some cases don't even follow these rules, if they have an a and e or an e and y at some point in their name. When Martin says "ae" is a sign of Valyrian names, it is extremely clear he means connected "ae" as in "Rhaegar" not a and e with a bunch of letters inbetween like Ambrose. It's examples like that or Barristan where you go off the rails. If Ambrose is a dragonseed, his name is not a hint to it. 

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Daynes are not Targs per GRRM himself and how is Lyanna a dragonseed?

I explained both of those elements here:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159080-swan-song-part-1616-exotic-fruits-on-family-trees/

[Megorova]

47 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I didn't say it was this thread and I'm not going to pour through your comment history, but you've definitely done that.

I went thru all my comments (there are only 33 of them) since I started writing Swon Song, and we started discussing this topic only after I started posting SS. I didn't wrote that Brienne and Meris are dragonseeds because there is ey present in their nicknames. I didn't wrote it in this thread, or any other thread, period. I did checked.

49 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

If Ambrose is a dragonseed, his name is not a hint to it. 

Ok.

I posted 16 threads, there are a lot of topics that could be discussed there. So could you like move on?

I wrote the last three parts of SS. Would you like to discuss something else besides this ae/ey-topic?

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 5/27/2021 at 1:29 PM, Megorova said:

I went thru all my comments (there are only 33 of them) since I started writing Swon Song, and we started discussing this topic only after I started posting SS. I didn't wrote that Brienne and Meris are dragonseeds because there is ey present in their nicknames. I didn't wrote it in this thread, or any other thread, period. I did checked.

I don't care to debate the topic further (nor do you, it seems), but for the record, I found the thread in my comment history. It wasn't one of the swan songs ones.

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I don't care to debate the topic further (nor do you, it seems), but for the record, I found the thread in my comment history. It wasn't one of the swan songs ones.

 

You misunderstood what I meant there, or maybe it's me who didn't clarified it more clearly.

I didn't meant that they are Targaryens/Blackfyres/dragonseeds just because they have ey in their nicknames.

I probably shoudn't have separated what I wrote by your quotes, then it would have been more clear what exactly did i meant then.

Maybe like this (minus your quote in between my own text):

On 6/30/2020 at 11:59 PM, Megorova said:

No, it's not always true, some names/surnames with ae in them nevertheless are not Valyrian. For example - Craster, Mance Rayder, Samwell Tarly, Ferny (one of Craster's wives; like e...y in Maelys, Viserys, Daenerys), Bael.

On 6/30/2020 at 11:59 PM, Megorova said:

Her nickname is Pretty Meris, like e...y in Renly, Velaryon, Petyr Baelysh, Rhaenys, Visenya, Jaehaerys, Jocelyn, Lucerys, Jeyne Waters (Elaena Targaryen's bastard), Rosey (Aegon IV's bastard).

Jon Snow is subtle. Melysandre is also subtle.

On 6/30/2020 at 11:59 PM, Megorova said:

What's in common between Brienne and Meris:

- blond hair; - lightly colored eyes; - both are taller than average women; - both are warriors; - both have mocking nicknames - Pretty Meris and Brienne the Beauty (which also has an ey in it); - the timing of Brienne's birth and Meris' arrival to Essos do match; - and originally Meris is from Westeros.

Based on this, Meris could be Brinne's mother. I'm not saying that she's definitely is her mother, only that she could be.

By what I wrote I didn't meant that Meris and Brienne are mother and daughter just because both of them have ey in their mocking nicknames. Prior highlining ey in their nickames I wrote that - "it's not always true, some names/surnames with ae in them nevertheless are not Valyrian. For example - Craster, Mance Rayder, Samwell Tarly, Ferny (one of Craster's wives; like e...y in Maelys, Viserys, Daenerys), Bael."

The same rule applyes to ey, like in that Ferny that I wrote above, it's ey like in Maelys and Viserys, but Ferny is not a dragonseed like those other two. Just because people have ae/ey in their names it doesn't mean that they are definitely dragonseeds.

Jon Snow's name doesn't have neither ae nor ey in it, and nevertheless he is a dragonseed.

English isn't my native language, it's my 4th. And in that thread I wrote nearly a year ago, since then my language improved. I should have wrote there more clearly what I meant.

What I meant is that even though Brienne and Meris does have ey in their nicknames it doesn't necessary has a meaning, because as I wrote there - if a character has ae or ey in their names/surnames, that's all good, though if they are dragonseeds then to addition to their names/surnames they should have other elements/symbols/events around them that connect them to dragonseeds. I did wrote in that thread

On 6/30/2020 at 11:59 PM, Megorova said:

On 6/30/2020 at 10:41 PM, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Your theory seems to rely on heavily stretched evidence based mostly on names.

Not only on names.

Thus, the conclusion is that names alone mean nearly nothing, if there are no other connections between certain character and dragonseeds, then we can just ignore that he/she have ae/ey in their names, or even if they have Targaryen-sounding names like Rhaegar Frey. Is this clear enough?

Previously I also wrote in THIS thread

On 5/27/2021 at 7:21 PM, Megorova said:

In my opinion this ae and ey (IN FIRST NAMES) works as a hint concerning possible Valyrian ancestry of certain characters only if it's an "ey" in combination like eny, ely, ery - like in Aenys, Aelyx, Viserys - not just some randon "e....y", like in Eysen, Erryk, Quentyn, Frey, Greyjoy, Beesbury, Norrey, Turnberry, Massey, Alebelly, Alekyne, Tawney, Avery, Botley, Reyaan, etc. And only if besides names like that (with ae and ey in them), they also have other dragon-related elements about them or around them.

There is ey in Pretty and Beauty, though it's not in a combination eny, ely, ery. Just some randon e.......y is not part of any patterns.

Though concerning ae in Ambrose's case, it is a special case, because he has a in the beginning of his name and e in the end of it. Only that alone means absolutely nothing, though with the combination of him being the right age for being one of Aegon IV's children, him owning a dragon egg, him being spared by Bloodraven - all that combined together means that he COULD BE a dragonseed.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 5/27/2021 at 3:19 PM, Megorova said:

I explained both of those elements here:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159080-swan-song-part-1616-exotic-fruits-on-family-trees/

1) irrelevant Bc we know canonically daynes aren’t Valyrian 

2) uh that link opines Lyannas great  aunt was a dragonseed. Grrm has some funky genetics but I doubt lyanna got genes from her