Swan Song part 8/16. The real cause of the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion

[Megorova]

18 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

1) irrelevant Bc we know canonically daynes aren’t Valyrian 

2) uh that link opines Lyannas great  aunt was a dragonseed. Grrm has some funky genetics but I doubt lyanna got genes from her 

1. I didn't said that Daynes are Valyrian. I said that Valyrians and Daynes both are descendants from Azor Ahai's children. That's not the same thing.

In the Bible there was a character Noah (you know - the Great Flood? the Ark?), he had three sons - Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_(son_of_Noah)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japheth

"The children of Shem were Elam, Ashur, Arphaxad, Lud and Aram, in addition to daughters. Abraham, the patriarch of the Muslims, Jews and the Christians, was one of the descendants of Arphaxad."

"Ham,^[a] (in Hebrew: חָם‎ Hebrew pronunciation: [ˈħam]) according to the Table of Nations in the Book of Genesis, was the second son of Noah^[1] and the father of Cush, Mizraim, Phut and Canaan.^[2][3]

Cush is traditionally considered the ancestor of the "land of Cush," an ancient territory believed to have been located near the Red Sea. Cush is identified in the Bible with the Kingdom of Kush or ancient Ethiopia.^[3] The Cushitic languages are named after Cush.

Canaan (Hebrew: כְּנַעַן‎ – Kənáʿan, in pausa כְּנָעַן‎ – Kənā́ʿan), according to the Book of Genesis in the Hebrew Bible, was a son of Ham and grandson of Noah, and was the father of the Canaanites.

Ham's descendants are interpreted by Flavius Josephus and others as having populated Africa and adjoining parts of Asia. The Bible refers to Egypt as "the land of Ham"."

Japheth "the ancestor of the peoples of the Aegean Sea, Anatolia, and elsewhere.^[1] In medieval and early modern European tradition he was considered to be the progenitor of the European peoples"

 

If we'll compare those Biblical examples to ASOIAF then what you say is that Jews are not Canaanites, or Muslims are not Cush/Ethiopians. But what I'm saying is that Jews, Canaanites, Muslims and Ethiopians are all descendants of Noah, thru his three sons.

What I'm saying is that out of Azor's 44 sons, 40 founded Valyria, their half-siblings, the other 4, founded Houses Hightower, Corbray, Dayne and Swann.

I'm not saying that Daynes are Valyrians, I'm saying that both Daynes and Valyrians had a common ancestor, and that ancestor is Azor Ahai.

Edit: [There is a possibility that the Daynes in the past 5-10 generations are partially Valyrian. That's if one of my theories is correct that one of Princess Rhaena's six daughters married with a Dayne and her children continued House Dayne. In this case Dyanna Dayne (Aegon V's mother) was her husband's third cousin. That Princess Rhaena was half-sister of Viserys II (thru their father Daemon Targaryen). Her six daughters were first cousins of Aegon IV. The children of those daughters were second cousins of Daeron II and Daenerys, and their grandchildren (Dyanna Dayne and her brother - the Lord Dayne - and their other siblings) were third cousins to Daeron's children, including Maekar (Egg's father). So Dyanna and her brother and their other siblings were Princess Rhaena's great-grandchildren. Rhaena was half-Targaryen and half-Velaryon (thru her mother, Laena Velaryon), thus she was a 100% Valyrian, and in this case Dyanna Dayne was 1/8 Valyrian, and so was her brother who continued House Dayne.

So Daynes starting from approximately the reign of Aegon IV-Daeron II were indeed partially Valyrian (if my theory is correct.

I wrote in another thread that there's a possibility that Dyanna Dayne's sister married with Viserys Plumm, and then their daughter married with a Dothraki, and amongst their descendants there's Brown Ben Plumm and Khal Drogo (Dany's husband, that's why Rhaego has partially Valyrian looks - silver-gold hair and violet eyes).

Here's that post:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159013-swan-song-part-116-the-missing-pieces-ptsd/&do=findComment&comment=8684543]

2. Wrong.

Lyanna (1/32 Targaryen) =

Rickard Stark (1/16 Targaryen) + Lyarra Stark =

(Rickard's parents) Edwyle Stark (1/8 Targaryen) + Marna Locke =

(Edwyle's parents) Willam Stark + Melantha Blackwood (1/4 Targaryen) =

(Melantha's parents) Mya Rivers (1/2 Targaryen) + Blackwood husband =

(Mya's parents) Melissa Blackwood + Aegon IV Targaryen

Thus Lyanna is Aegon IV's 3-times-great-granddaughter and 1/32 Targaryen.

Lyanna is a dragonseed thru her father, and paternal grandfather (Edwyle), and thru Edwyle's mother (Melantha) and Edwyle's maternal grandmother (Mya Rivers - King Aegon's daughter).

[HoodedCrow]

I believe the Bible etc, are metaphorical, mythical, abbreviated and contextual. There was a whole murderous agreement on what to include as gospel, and a murderous argument on having icons, etc. The Trinity explanation was an afterthought, hundreds of years later. A giveaway is What Is Capitalized. Later on, people had wars about it. Look at the reasoning behind Protestant/ Catholic wars, for example, or discrimination based on pigment or gender.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

1. I didn't said that Daynes are Valyrian. I said that Valyrians and Daynes both are descendants from Azor Ahai's children. That's not the same thing.

Ok that's a possibility but that goes back far enough it's basically a crapshoot.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

2. Wrong.

 

I screwed up the family tree a bit (thought melissa and melantha were sisters), so that was incorrect. You're assuming that Mya married a Blackwood, when we don't even know if she married. Then on top of that the assumption that Mya was the mother of Melantha. However it's a large stretch to assume both, and I'm not even sure how being a legitimized bastard would affect matchmaking for her and her potential daughters. It would appear to conflict as a legitimized bastard would command a notable match, a height a random cadet blackwood wouldn't reach, and a lowly match would more or less prevent a child's match to an LP.

None of that really jives from where I'm sitting.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

On 5/17/2021 at 10:21 AM, Megorova said:

Barristan’s age

Let’s define the year of Barristan’s birth.

Quote

“Last year he unhorsed the Hound, and it was only four years ago that he was champion.” - AGOT, Ned V.

Champion of the tourney at King’s Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I Baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age. - ASOS, Jaime VIII.

The events narrated in AGOT Ned V are occurring past the middle of 298 AC. Barristan became the champion of the KL’s tournament in 294 AC before his birthday of that year. At that time he was still 57, and later that year he turned 58. Barristan was dismissed from the Kingsguard in the late 298, sometime after his 61st birthday. Thus, the year of his birth is 236 AC, and he was born near the end of the year. Let’s compare this conclusion with the other known information about Barristan’s age at certain events in his life.

Your calculations are off - the phrase “in his Nth year” covers the year from his (N-1)th birthday until the day before Nth birthday, so his 57th year covers 56th birthday up to day before 57, and 61st year is 60th until 61-1 day. Put another way, a baby’s first year of life starts day of birth and goes just up until 1st birthday. Accordingly, Barristan was born in 237AC, and so, Barristan’s birth, twin or solo, occurred after and as such was not related to the onset the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. 

 

On 5/17/2021 at 10:21 AM, Megorova said:

I think that during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, Barristan Selmy had specifically targeted Maelys the Monstrous because he had a personal vendetta against Maelys. In my opinion, Daemon Blackfyre was Barristan’s twin-brother. So to avenge Daemon’s death, Barristan wanted to personally settle a score with his brother’s murderer and to avenge his death - an eye for an eye, or blood for blood.

Without any textual support for Barristan having a twin, I would say it is far more likely that Barristan the Bold targeted Maelys I Blackfyre, last known male of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in order to put an end to the decades-long threat to the realm. 

 

On 5/17/2021 at 10:21 AM, Megorova said:

In Jaime Lannister’s entry in the White Book, both of his parents’ names were recorded, though in Barristan’s entry the name of his mother is omitted, possibly because she was a Blackfyre. See?

With a sample size of two known entries, we have no way of knowing which style was more common for the White Book. For all we know, Aerys ordered Joanna’s inclusion as an additional slight to Tywin and all other entries list only the fathers, if any parent is listed at all (several bastards have served as Kingsguard). Seems like a bit of a stretch to say no mother listed, clearly she was a Blackfyre.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 10:21 AM, Megorova said:

Furthermore, Barristan being Lyonel’s firstborn son implicates that, besides Barristan, his father also had at least one more son. Though from Barristan’s memories about his youth and family, we know this:

Quote

“I was chosen for the White Swords in my twenty-third year. It was all I had ever dreamed, from the moment I first took sword in hand. I gave up all claim to my ancestral keep. The girl I was to wed married my cousin in my place, I had no need of land or sons, my life would be lived for the realm.” - AGOT, Sansa V.

Barristan’s ex-fiancée married with his cousin, not his brother. Which means that by the time when Barristan became a Kingsguard, in late 260 AC, his younger brother, Daemon, was already dead and Lyonel had no other sons. Thus, the girl instead married one of Lyonel’s nephews.

Or, Lyonel’s second son was already married (similar to Garlan Tyrell marrying before Willas), and so was unavailable. Once again, seems like a bit of a leap to say the brother being unavailable means the brother is a (dead) Blackfyre.

[Megorova]

18 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Your calculations are off - the phrase “in his Nth year” covers the year from his (N-1)th birthday until the day before Nth birthday, so his 57th year covers 56th birthday up to day before 57, and 61st year is 60th until 61-1 day.

You are incorrect. That's not GRRM's view of those things. Evidence:

1. ASOS, Jaime VIII:

"Ser Jaime of House Lannister. Firstborn son of Lord Tywin and Lady Joanna of Casterly Rock. Served against the Kingswood Brotherhood as squire to Lord Sumner Crakehall. Knighted in his 15th year by Ser Arthur Dayne of the Kingsguard, for valor in the field. Chosen for the Kingsguard in his 15th year by King Aerys II Targaryen."

ASOS, Jaime II:

" “Why did you take the oath?” she demanded. “Why don the white cloak if you meant to betray all it stood for?”

Why? What could he say that she might possibly understand? “I was a boy. Fifteen. It was a great honor for one so young.”

“That is no answer,” she said scornfully.

You would not like the truth. He had joined the Kingsguard for love, of course."

2.

On 5/17/2021 at 6:21 PM, Megorova said:

Selmy had won that name when he was ten years old, a new-made squire - ADWD, The Discarded Knight.

Named “the Bold” in his 10th year, - ASOS, Jaime VIII.

 

If it was in ASOIAF the way you see it, then Jaime would have been knighted when he was 14 years old, though he was knighted when he was 15 years old. So when GRRM writes that someone did this or that in his 15th year, in his 57th year, what he means is the age of that person at the time of that event.

When GRRM writes this person did this and that in his Ns year, what he means is that that person was N-aged at that time, not N-1.

 

So Barristan was born in 236.