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Swan Song part 9/16. The Red Widow & The Spider


Megorova

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Based on those clues that I noticed in the books, I recreated a partial picture of what possibly could have happened between the events depicted in “The Sworn Sword” novel and in “A Game of Thrones”. 

The Red Widow

  • Widow Spiders are highly venomous arachnids that belong to the Latrodectus genus of spiders. Females are typically dark brown or shiny black in colour with a red or orange hourglass on the underside of the abdomen. The female eats the male after mating. In addition to sexual cannibalism, Latrodectus hesperus (the Western Widow) are also known to engage in sibling and offspring cannibalism.
  • Black widow is a woman who kills her husband or lover, especially one who kills multiple husbands or lovers.

In 211 AC, while Dunk and Egg were in the service of Ser Eustace Osgrey, they met Rohanne Webber the Lady of Coldmoat.

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The Red Widow, she was called, for the husbands she had put into the ground. Old Sam Stoops said she was a witch, a poisoner, and worse.

“Just how many husbands has she had, do you know?”

“Four,” said Egg, “but no children. Whenever she gives birth, a demon comes by night to carry off the issue. Sam Stoops’ wife says she sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he’d teach her his black arts.”

Ser Eustace became Rohanne’s fifth husband, though shortly afterwards he died and Rohanne became a widow again. Then she married with Gerold Lannister, who was one of her suitors in The Sworn Sword novel (TSS). Before their marriage, in 212 AC, Gerold’s older brother Tybold died under suspicious circumstances. Tybold’s daughter succeeded him as the Lady of Casterly Rock, with Gerold serving as her regent, though less than a year later she had also died. Some of Gerold’s lords and many of his smallfolk believed that he was a kinslayer.

In the span of her sixth marriage Rohanne had four children. And then she “vanished under mysterious circumstances in 230 AC, less than a year after giving birth to his lordship’s fourth and youngest son, Jason”. In my opinion, Rohanne’s disappearance is connected to Duncan the Tall and the outcome of what will happen between them in the future was decided in this scene from TSS:

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The Red Widow looked Dunk over from his heels up to his head, though her gaze lingered longest on his chest. “A tree and shooting star. I have never seen those arms before.” She touched his tunic, tracing a limb of his elm tree with two fingers. “And painted, not sewn. The Dornish paint their silks, I’ve heard, but you look too big to be a Dornishman.”

“Not all Dornishmen are small, m’lady.” Dunk could feel her fingers through the silk. Her hand was freckled, too. I’ll bet she’s freckled all over. His mouth was oddly dry. “I spent a year in Dorne.”

“Do all the oaks grow so tall there?” she said, as her fingers traced a tree limb around his heart.

“It’s meant to be an elm, m’lady.”

“I shall remember.” She drew her hand back, solemn.

I think that Rohanne was a bloodmage and a powerful prophet. From her visions she knew that she will have seven children; her seventh child will be fathered by a man with a blood of the dragons; the birth of that child is necessary because it will influence the outcome of the Second Long Night; the child’s father is supposed to be a man from Dorne, and she will recognize him by a tree and a shooting star omen.

Dunk was born at the Water Gardens in Dorne and he is a pureblooded dragonseed (his mother is Daenerys Targaryen and his father is Daemon I Blackfyre). So when Rohanne met Dunk, she realized that he’s the man from her visions. That’s why she was asking him about his origin and his connection to Dorne (in that scene from above and later in the audience chamber at Coldmoat). In their interactions in TSS, there were several sex-themed innuendos that foreshadowed their future connection:

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She was waiting for him inside the stables, standing by the yellow bales of hay in a gown as green as summer. “Ser Duncan,” she said when he came pushing through the door. Her red braid hung down in front, the end of it brushing against her thighs. “It is good to see you on your feet.”

You never saw me on my back, he thought.

She reached out her hand for his, a freckled hand, her fingers strong and slender. I’ll bet she’s freckled all over.

… “You have large feet,” she observed. “Large hands as well. I think you must be large all over.

Also in TSS Dunk had a dream about him and Rohanne, a dream with honey and arrows, and considering that Dunk is a dragonseed, it’s possible that his dream was prophetic. Apparently years after the events in TSS, Rohanne and Dunk met again, maybe at the Targaryen court. Then, shortly before her disappearance, she used love potion on Dunk and got pregnant, and this could be a clue that hints at this possibility:

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“… my sister Rhae put a love potion in my drink, so I’d marry her instead of my sister Daella.” …

“Did the potion work?” Dunk asked.

“It would have,” said Egg, “but I spit it out.” - TSS.

When Rohanne conceived Dunk’s child, she had to disappear. Her child had very unusual genes, magical on both sides of her family, a mix of Ice and Fire. Could be that after the baby was born, it drew life-force out of Rohanne. Same sort of drainage happened to Aegon IV and Serenei of Lys when she gave birth to Shiera Seastar, and to Stannis when Melisandre was giving birth to his shadow-babies. Maybe Rohanne knew what would happen when the baby will be born, that’s why she had to leave.

Jenny of Oldstones

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Aegon’s eldest son Duncan, Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the throne, was the first to defy him. Though betrothed to a daughter of House Baratheon of Storm’s End, Duncan became enamored of a strange, lovely, and mysterious girl who called herself Jenny of Oldstones in 239 AC, whilst traveling in the riverlands. Though she dwelt half-wild amidst ruins and claimed descent from the long-vanished kings of the First Men, the smallfolk of surrounding villages mocked such tales, insisting that she was only some half-mad peasant girl, and perhaps even a witch. - TWOIAF.

People don’t just grow on trees, nor do they appear out of nowhere after it rains because they are not mushrooms. No matter how mysterious Jenny appeared to be, she had a mother and a father, same as all other people. There was a woman that gave birth to her, and a man who conceived her.

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Dunk looked about him. At the green grass and the reeds, the tall elm, the ripples dancing across the surface of the sunlit pool. Another dragonfly was moving across the water, or perhaps it was the same one. What shall it be, Dunk? he asked himself. Dragonflies or dragons? - THK.

Jenny of Oldstones—Lady Jenny, as she was called by courtesy—was eventually accepted at court, and throughout the Seven Kingdoms the smallfolk held her especially dear. She and her prince, forever after known as the Prince of Dragonflies, were a favorite subject of singers for many years. - TWOIAF, Aegon V.

It seems that Aegon named his firstborn son Duncan in honor of his best friend (though GRRM hadn’t confirmed this). In my opinion, their names and those two quotes with dragonflies are clues that Jenny’s father was Duncan the Tall. And Jenny’s mother most likely was Rohanne Webber. This conclusion I’m basing on the patterns that are connected to Rohanne. Before her marriage with Gerold Lannister, Rohanne gave birth to a son fathered by her second husband, and later had a daughter fathered either by her third or fourth husband (both children died). With Gerold Rohanne had four children: Tywald, Tion, Tytos (Tywin’s father), and Jason (Joanna’s father). If my assumptions are correct, then after her six husbands, Dunk was Rohanne’s seventh man/sexual partner. Thus, Jenny of Oldstones was the seventh child of the seventh father (Gerold was the third, fourth, fifth and sixth father of Rohanne’s children). Also, the naming of her children followed a T-pattern, and then changed to a J-pattern. So her next child’s name should have started with a “J”, and Jenny’s name fits into this pattern.

The Ghost of High Heart

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Jenny of Oldstones was accompanied to court by a dwarfish, albino woman who was reputed to be a woods witch in the riverlands. Lady Jenny herself claimed, in her ignorance, that she was a child of the forest. - TWOIAF.

The Ghost of High Heart and Jenny’s woods witch is the same person. Though the Children of the forest are not humans, they are a different species, so Jenny’s woods witch isn’t one of them. Thus, who is she? Her looks and her behavior are clues to figure that out.

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Ned, Gendry, and many of the others were fast asleep when Arya spied the small pale shape creeping behind the horses, thin white hair flying wild as she leaned upon a gnarled cane. The woman could not have been more than three feet tall. The firelight made her eyes gleam as red as the eyes of Jon’s wolf.

“A silver stag for your dreams, my lady,” Lord Beric said, with solemn courtesy. “Another if you have news for us.”

“I cannot eat a silver stag, nor ride one. A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak.” The little woman cackled. “Aye, a sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue. It has been too long, too long. His mouth will taste of lemons, and mine of bones. I am too old.” - ASOS, Arya IV.

She’s short, longhaired, has a sharp tongue, and would like to get a kiss from the great oaf. This reminds me a lot about events from TSS.

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It was the girl he had seen earlier at the archery butts. She had a quiver of arrows on one hip, and held a longbow that was just as tall as she was, which wasn’t very tall. If Dunk was shy an inch of seven feet, the archer was shy an inch of five. He could have spanned her waist with his two hands. Her red hair was bound up in a braid so long it brushed past her thighs, and she had a dimpled chin, a snub nose, and a light spray of freckles across her cheeks.

… Dunk looked from one lady to the other. “You are the Red Widow?” he heard himself blurt out. “But you’re too—”

“Young?” The girl tossed her longbow to the lanky lad he’d seen her shooting with. “I am five-and-twenty, as it happens. Or was it small you meant to say?”

“—pretty. It was pretty .”

A gallantry, you lunk, give her a gallantry. “I want to say . . . your gown . . .”

“Gown?” She glanced down at her boots and breeches, loose linen tunic, and leather jerkin. “I wear no gown.”

“Your hair, I meant . . . it’s soft and . . .”

“And how would you know that, ser? If you had ever touched my hair, I should think that I might remember.”

“Not soft,” Dunk said miserably. “Red, I meant to say. Your hair is very red.”

Very red, ser? Oh, not as red as your face, I hope.” ...

… A flush crept up Rohanne’s face. She clutched her braid, twisting it between her fingers. “I had to marry, you know that. My father’s will . . . oh, don’t be such a fool.”

“What else should I be? I’m thick as a castle wall and bastard born as well.”

“Take the horse. I refuse to let you go without something to remember me by.”

“I will remember you, m’lady. Have no fear of that.”

“Take her!”

Dunk grabbed her braid and pulled her face to his. It was awkward with the crutch and the difference in their heights. He almost fell before he got his lips on hers. He kissed her hard. One of her hands went around his neck, and one around his back. He learned more about kissing in a moment than he had ever known from watching. - TSS.

It seems that in ASOS the Ghost was reminiscing about that “sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue” which she had long time ago with the great oaf who was “thick as a castle wall”. Thus, the Ghost of High Heart and Rohanne Webber is the same person, and she said in ASOS - “My Jenny’s song”, because Jenny was her daughter.

Three Anes

In my opinion, it’s likely that Duncan the Tall had children with these three Anes - Alysanne Stark, Tanselle Too-Tall, and Rohanne Webber.

You can read about Alysanne’s descendants here -
Swan Song part 6/16. A brown-haired girl and a knight as tall as Hodor

There’s not much to say about Dunk’s descendants with Tanselle - they founded House Drinkwater ("The puppeteer who worked the dragon was good to watch too; a tall drink of water, with the olive skin and black hair of Dorne." - THK.), that’s it. Dunk and Tanselle never married and after his second and final separation with Tanselle, he briefly got reunited with Rohanne. Though she just used him for her own purposes and then also left. Eventually, after failing his relationship with three Anes, Dunk gave up ever having a family of his own and became a Kingsguard (or he did it because of some other reasons). At least this family was supposed to be for life. Unfortunately for Dunk, among his sworn brothers there was a Faceless Man, or maybe even more than one. And thus, the Summerhall burned.

The Burning of Summerhall

I hope that eventually we will find out what exactly happened at Summerhall. For now, there’s too little information that is known about those events. Thus, I’m not even going to speculate. Though, to keep things interesting - look at the illustration in The World of Ice & Fire book on which is depicted the scene of the Summerhall’s burning. That illustration is titled “The destruction of Summerhall”. What if the woman in that picture is not Rhaella and the child isn’t Rhaegar?

Across the Narrow Sea

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THE TRAGEDY OF Summerhall brought Jaehaerys, the Second of His Name, to the Iron Throne in 259 AC. Scarcely had he donned the crown than the Seven Kingdoms found themselves plunged into war, for the Ninepenny Kings had taken and sacked the Free City of Tyrosh and seized the Stepstones; from there, they stood poised to attack Westeros.

ALEQUO ADARYS, THE SILVERTONGUE: A Tyroshi merchant prince who was wealthy and ambitious.

… In 260 AC, his lordship landed Targaryen armies upon three of the Stepstones, and the War of the Ninepenny Kings turned bloody. Battle raged across the islands and the channels between for most of that year.

Hightower and his men were hard-pressed for a time, but as the war hung in the balance, a young knight named Ser Barristan Selmy slew Maelys in single combat, winning undying renown and deciding the issue in a stroke, for the remainder of the Ninepenny Kings had little or no interest in Westeros and soon fell back to their own domains.

Half a year of hard fighting remained before the Stepstones and the Disputed Lands were freed from the remaining Band of Nine, and it would be six years before Alequo Adarys, the Tyrant of Tyrosh, was poisoned by his queen and the Archon of Tyrosh was restored. - TWOIAF, Jaehaerys II.

Counting six years and six months from 260 AC lands us in 267, so this is the year when the Silvertongue died. And do you know who else died that same year?

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In 267 AC, Lord Tytos Lannister’s heart burst as he was climbing a steep flight of steps to the bedchamber of his mistress.

Tytos was the last living son of Gerold Lannister and Rohanne Webber. His three brothers died before him. If my theory concerning Jenny’s parentage is correct, then by 267 AC Tytos Lannister was the last of her living siblings.

I think that Jenny hadn’t died at Summerhall; she was kidnapped, either by Maelys Blackfyre or by the people that were hired by him. Maelys’ actions were driven by the prophecy. Same as the Red Widow he knew that Jenny’s child would play a crucial role in the Game of Thrones, so he decided that this child should be his own. Thus Jenny got kidnapped, and before Maelys departed to Stepstones he got her pregnant. In 258 AC, The Band of Nine agreed to aid each other in carving out kingdoms for each of them. Though Alequo Adarys was called the Silvertongue, not without a reason, he persuaded the other eight that they should start from Tyrosh. And when they seized the kingdom for Alequo, he also persuaded Maelys to leave his pregnant woman in Alequo’s household. Then Maelys got killed by Barristan Selmy, and his children (a set of twins, a girl and a boy) were born at Tyrosh, either in 260 or 261 AC.

Those children were the last Blackfyres, so by keeping them under his control, Alequo also got control over the Golden Company (GC). He made Jenny his queen, and was using GC to earn money for him by sending them all over Essos to fight in numerous battles, which also kept them away from Tyrosh. Then either something happened to the GC and Alequo thought that they are done for and won’t come back, or he just grew so insolent that he thought that he can control GC even without keeping little Blackfyres as his hostages. So he just sold all three of Jenny’s children to slavers (yes, there were three of them, not two. Just keep reading, I’ll explain later). While Jenny’s children were with her, she was willing to do anything for them to be safe, though when Alequo sold them, she retaliated by using blood magic to kill him.

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“Osgrey can keep his silver. Only blood can pay for blood.” - Rohanne Webber, TSS.

“It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life.” - Mirri Maz Duur, AGOT, Dany VIII.

If death may pay for life, and blood for blood, then to take someone’s life, you can also use blood. And Jenny, Silvertongue’s queen, used her own. For the Tyrant’s death she paid with the life of her last living sibling, Tytos Lannister, blood of her blood. She poisoned Alequo’s wine with her witch-blood and when he was dying in that same moment, across the Narrow Sea, her brother’s heart burst. And what happened to Jenny afterwards is irrelevant, because she had already served her purpose in the Game of Thrones - she gave birth to the Kingmaker.

The Kingmaker

Rohanne Webber’s first child that had lived to adulthood - Tywald Lannister - was born by her when she was 29 years old. If GRRM had used the same pattern in Jenny’s case, then in the span of her marriage with Duncan the Small she had several miscarriages or stillbirths or her children died in infancy, the same as it was with Rohanne. If that is so, and my assumptions are correct, then Jenny’s first child that had lived to adulthood was born when she was 29 years old, in 259 AC, with Summerhall brightly burning in the background.

The child of Jenny of Oldstones and Duncan the Small is Melisandre (you didn’t see that coming, didn’t you? ^_^).

Melisandre is tall, like her maternal grandfather Duncan the Tall, and she’s a red-haired witch, like her grandmother the Red Widow. She has a gift of foresight and a high affinity with fire-magic, there’s an “ae” in her name (back to “SS part 1/16”), and she’s a legitimate Targaryen born in wedlock. Her father used to be the Prince of Dragonstone before he abdicated his title and became the Prince of Dragonflies.

Because of the circumstances of his birth, Rhaegar Targaryen used to think that he is the Prince that was promised. Later, for some reason, he changed that opinion and instead thought that he would be the father of the three heads of the dragon from the prophecy. Thus he thought that he would be the Kingmaker, in a sense that he would be the one who will make the future King. Though, Rhaegar was wrong because he wasn’t the only child that was born at the Summerhall on that night.

Melisandre’s great-grandfather was King Maekar, and she is the Kingmaker, it’s a pun. Though, Melisandre is also not the only one who believes that it’s her destiny to crown the Promised Prince. If the Kingmaker is a Targaryen, then the King also will be a Targaryen, though if the Kingmaker is a Blackfyre, then he will crown a Blackfyre as the King.

The Spider and his Web

When Maelys the Monstrous died, the Golden Company pledged their loyalty to his posthumous children - Serra and Varys Blackfyre. What happened then, you can guess. The Silvertongue sold them to slavers. Melisandre got bought by the Red Temple (ADWD, Melisandre I), Serra by a pillow house (ADWD, Tyrion II), and Varys by a troupe of mummers (ACOK, Tyrion X). At the time when they got sold (267 AC) they were old enough to know and remember who they really are. So years later, when Varys and Illyrio set up their criminal empire in Pentos, they eventually found Serra and then contacted the Golden Company. They all believed that Serra is the Kingmaker from the prophecy, based on which Maelys the Monstrous kidnapped Jenny of Oldstones. GC thought that Serra’s son would be the Promised Prince. But then Serra got killed by the Faceless Men, and she had left no children.

Though Varys also was the child of Jenny and Maelys, thus he persuaded GC that nothing is lost, and even though he can’t have children, he will somehow make for them a child with Blackfyre blood, because that is his destiny. He is the Kingmaker, so he will crown the Promised Prince of the Blackfyre blood as the King of the 7K. He persuaded them that he will succeed in getting the Iron Throne for the Blackfyres, and thus the Golden Company agreed to follow him to wherever fate will lead him. And that’s how he ended up as the Master of Whisperers at the court of the Mad King, Aerys II Targaryen.

He came to the 7K to pursue two goals. The first one was to prepare the ground for the Sixth Blackfyre Rebellion. He planted his agents all over Westeros, created a wide network made from those locals that he had recruited among the citizens of the 7K, and those selected members of the Golden Company that he had brought with him across the Narrow Sea. For Varys’ mission to be successful it’s not enough for him to have big ears, he also has to have long hands (figuratively speaking). Information is power, though information alone can’t do much. Thus, besides having informants, he also needed all sorts of other agents, people who would do for him things that needs to be done. He made alliances and gave promises, he planted seeds and kept them well nourished and watered. And when the right time will come, he will reap what he saw. When he will finally bring the Golden Company across the Narrow Sea, all those people will rally to his cause.

In my opinion, among Varys’ agents are (some of them are exes and some are already dead): Petyr Baelish, Shae, sellswords Bronn and Chiggen, Beth and Jory Cassel, Gerold Dayne, Jalabhar Xho, Salladhor Saan, Anguy the Archer, Kingsguard Balon Swann and other members of his House, Olenna and Mace Tyrell, House Redwyne, House Rowan, House Fossoway, and others. 

Thus, the first part of Varys’ grand mission was set in motion and there was only one thing that was missing - Here’s the crown! Where’s the King?! 

To be continued in the next thread “What happened at the Kingswood”.

P.S. Varys’ nickname is the Spider because his grandmother is the Red Widow.

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M!
thanks for thinking the thoughts that i never would have thought  ... very interesting ideas on the potential relationships/connections & such.

On 5/17/2021 at 10:05 AM, Megorova said:

The child of Jenny of Oldstones and Duncan the Small is Melisandre (you didn’t see that coming, didn’t you? ^_^).

On 5/17/2021 at 10:05 AM, Megorova said:

P.S. Varys’ nickname is the Spider because his grandmother is the Red Widow

no i didn't see any of those coming !   
on to part 10 for me :cheers:

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