Should Aerys had replaced the Kingsguard who remained in tower of Joy

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Surely we are far beyond a discussion of whether Rhaegar is the "heroic ideal".  We are discussing the blood sacrifice of children.  Many a cackling cartoon villain is not quite so ambitious in his eagerness to show the complete depths of his evil.

Well, I don't see Rhaegar as the cackling type, but, to quote Varys:

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There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man.

Here is where I see Rhaegar.  He has Melisandre's conviction and Stannis' devotion to duty.  There were only two things staying Stannis' hand when it came to sacrificing Edric.  1.  Stannis wasn't a complete convert to Melisandre's beliefs.  He still had a healthy amount of skepticism towards the religion.  For example, he needed to see that third king die before he was convinced that Melisandre's belief about the power of King's Blood was correct.  And 2. he needed to know that there was no other way.  

So if Rhaegar got to the point where he was convinced that the prophecy was correct then he seems to be the type to take the responsibility into his own hands.  So the only question in my mind is did Rhaegar come to a point where he believed that there was no other way to fulfill the prophecy?

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, sure.  There is surely a connection of some kind between Mel's "Azor Ahai Reborn" and Rhaegar's "Prince that Was Promised".  The  "war for the dawn" prophesy seems to be something that is spread across multiple cultures.

But I don't think it is self evident that all sources necessarily teach the same thing.  Mel's version of the story specifically comes from Asshai, which is a dreadful and evil land of blood magic and blood sorcery, and worse.  IIRC, the Nissa Nissa story, which is a tale of human scarifice, comes from Asshai (correct me if wrong).

Rhaegar's obsession with Summerhall is the red flag in my opinion.  Because like it or not, the road to Summerhall may have started in Asshai:

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The last years of Aegon’s reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros. What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy.

 

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

My idea was that Aemon was warning Sam not to let himself be questioned by Alleras.  

It doesn't really seem like a warning though.  And why would Aemon have any idea who Alleras is?  My question is whether Aemon is referring to a Valyrian sphinx, or the sphinxes at the citadel.  A chimera comprised of different things.  Or if perhaps the ideas are intertwined.

 

3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

And, in this context, I cannot help thinking of the myth of Fafnir, the greedy, father-slaying dwarf, who transforms into a dragon.

Heh:

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“You have to catch me.” Her voice came from his left. “M’lord must have played monsters and maidens when he was little.” “Are you calling me a monster?”

“No more than I’m a maiden.” She was behind him, her steps soft against the floor. “You need to catch me all the same.”

He did, finally, but only because she let herself be caught. By the time she slipped into his arms, he was flushed and out of breath from stumbling into dragon skulls.

 

[Mister Smikes]

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well, I don't see Rhaegar as the cackling type, but, to quote Varys:

Varys would not last long in the hands of a truly just man, so i can certainly see where he is coming from here.

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Here is where I see Rhaegar.  He has Melisandre's conviction and Stannis' devotion to duty.  There were only two things staying Stannis' hand when it came to sacrificing Edric.  1.  Stannis wasn't a complete convert to Melisandre's beliefs.  He still had a healthy amount of skepticism towards the religion.  For example, he needed to see that third king die before he was convinced that Melisandre's belief about the power of King's Blood was correct.  And 2. he needed to know that there was no other way.  

Stannis cannot possibly "know" such a thing.  He either chooses to put his faith in it, or doesn't.

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So if Rhaegar got to the point where he was convinced that the prophecy was correct then he seems to be the type to take the responsibility into his own hands.  So the only question in my mind is did Rhaegar come to a point where he believed that there was no other way to fulfill the prophecy?

Again, Rhaegar cannot possibly "know" such a thing.  He either chooses to put his faith in it, or doesn't.

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Rhaegar's obsession with Summerhall is the red flag in my opinion.  

I don't see evidence that Rhaegar is any more interested in Summerhall than is natural and normal for the situation.  And I suppose he knows far more about it than we do.

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Because like it or not, the road to Summerhall may have started in Asshai:

Well, that quote does not say Aegon only considered the Asshai texts, only that he sought them out, and (if he found them) presumably considered them.  But to the extent this is a red flag, it is more evidence against Aegon than against Rhaegar.  Aegon was involved in the Summerhall tragedy, and it is difficult not so suspect he is somehow to blame.  Rhaegar has no equivalent indications.

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It doesn't really seem like a warning though.  And why would Aemon have any idea who Alleras is?  

I'm not sure a Targaryen making fever-dream prophetic warnings needs to consciously know what he is talking about.  But he did wake up from dreams with the idea that there was something important he needed to tell Sam, that he was unable to properly articulate.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Stannis cannot possibly "know" such a thing.  He either chooses to put his faith in it, or doesn't.

Joffrey's death seemed to sway Stannis quite a bit.  The woman did say three kings would die, and the way to impress Stannis is to get results.

4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Again, Rhaegar cannot possibly "know" such a thing.  He either chooses to put his faith in it, or doesn't.

It apparently doesn't take too much to convince Rhaegar.  And it seems seeing a comet after having sex with his wife is all it takes.  Once again, I'm not so sure this guy is the heroic archetype you've made him.

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4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I don't see evidence that Rhaegar is any more interested in Summerhall than is natural and normal for the situation.  And I suppose he knows far more about it than we do.

 

Um, yea he's a bit obsessed:

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“Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.”

 

4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, that quote does not say Aegon only considered the Asshai texts, only that he sought them out, and (if he found them) presumably considered them.  But to the extent this is a red flag, it is more evidence against Aegon than against Rhaegar.  Aegon was involved in the Summerhall tragedy, and it is difficult not so suspect he is somehow to blame.  Rhaegar has no equivalent indications.

It's certainly telling that Asshai is the only source noted.  And when you couple that with the fact that Aemon seems to be on the same page with a lot of Melisandre's beliefs, makes me think that they are all operating out of the same playbook.

And you couple that with the fact that Aemon and Rhaegar also seem to have traded notes concerning the prophecy, would make me a little wary of Rhaegar's goals.  Maybe it's just smoke, but well, you know the saying.

4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm not sure a Targaryen making fever-dream prophetic warnings needs to consciously know what he is talking about.  But he did wake up from dreams with the idea that there was something important he needed to tell Sam, that he was unable to properly articulate.

The problem is he's not warning Sam of anything.  He wants Sam to warn the Citadel, about what's coming.  He wants Sam to understand the Melisandre picked the wrong messiah.  He wants Sam to get the Citadel to help Dany.  After that it appears that he's reliving past events.  Which is where the sphinx comes from.  In fact, it appears that he's talking about a past event where they tried to hatch dragons.

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“He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed.”

He brings up the sphinx right after he talks about eggs that didn't hatch.  In other words, his reference of the riddle comes right after he speaks of dragon eggs not hatching.  I think he's referring to a previous failed attempt.  And saying that they haven't figured out the riddle to all of this yet.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Joffrey's death seemed to sway Stannis quite a bit.  The woman did say three kings would die, and the way to impress Stannis is to get results.

If you realized black magic was real, would you immediately start worshipping the Devil?

What if there is a higher power than the Devil?   Like maybe the Seven.  The Seven don't think you should throw dwarfs into the sea or commit other acts of human sacrifice.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It apparently doesn't take too much to convince Rhaegar.  And it seems seeing a comet after having sex with his wife is all it takes.  

It's one thing to say:  "Ooh a comet, maybe that's a good omen."

It's another thing to say:  "Ooh a comet, I must start sacrificing babies to Satan right away."

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Once again, I'm not so sure this guy is the heroic archetype you've made him.

I never said he was a heroic archtype.

Why do you keep making this mistake?  I keep correcting you.

I just said I didn't think he was the kind of guy who would burn babies alive on the altar of a demon god.

Do you really find it that hard to imagine that some people might not do this?

WOULD YOU DO THIS????

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

If you realized black magic was real, would you immediately start worshipping the Devil?

What if there is a higher power than the Devil?   Like maybe the Seven.  The Seven don't think you should throw dwarfs into the sea or commit other acts of human sacrifice.

It's one thing to say:  "Ooh a comet, maybe that's a good omen."

It's another thing to say:  "Ooh a comet, I must start sacrificing babies to Satan right away."

I never said he was a heroic archtype.

Why do you keep making this mistake?  I keep correcting you.

I just said I didn't think he was the kind of guy who would burn babies alive on the altar of a demon god.

Do you really find it that hard to imagine that some people might not do this?

WOULD YOU DO THIS????

Well, I wouldn't.  But then again I also wouldn't separate a sixteen year old girl from her family so I could impregnate her to fulfill a prophecy I latched onto because a comet flew overhead on one of the few nights I had sex with my wife.  But who am I to second guess the father of the Prince that was Promised?  After all a guy that good looking, who can sing, and play the harp?  Surely he knows what he's doing.

[Mister Smikes]

On 6/6/2021 at 5:00 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Well, I wouldn't.  But then again I also wouldn't separate a sixteen year old girl from her family so I could impregnate her to fulfill a prophecy I latched onto because a comet flew overhead on one of the few nights I had sex with my wife.  But who am I to second guess the father of the Prince that was Promised?  After all a guy that good looking, who can sing, and play the harp?  Surely he knows what he's doing.

I sympathize with much of what you are saying here.  I just don't get the sense that GRRM is necessarily 100% on my side, or yours.  I can see him constructing a fantasy where a semi-sympathetic character just "has to" cheat on his wife and boink a beautiful teenaged girl to save the universe.  And if that fantasy does not make much sense, logically or morally, that may well be because it is just a fantasy.

It would amuse me no end if GRRM were to puncture this fantasy completely by carrying such thinking to its extreme -- by having Rhaegar burning babies alive on the altar of a demon.   I just don't get the sense that this is where he is headed.   Someone else may end up doing that, but not Rhaegar.

Rhaegar reminds me somewhat of Joshua York from GRRM's Fevre Dream.  He is an haunted emo elitist pretty-boy with Grand Plans to Make the World a Better Place.  I hated Joshua York.  The choices Joshua York made were, in my view, morally indefensible.  Joshua cannot, IMO, be absolved of responsibility for the countless deaths of riverboat passengers that occurred, in part, due to his choices.  As for GRRM, he seems to let Joshua off easy, assigning the bulk of the responsibility for the countless deaths to the other bad vampires, while Joshua gets to sit by sipping his potion, keeping his dainty hands clean, and sadly shaking his head in disapproval.  The only comeuppance Joshua faces is a confrontation with Abner Marsh where Abner challenges Joshua to account for his actions, and Joshua actually seems to feel a bit ashamed for a moment.  But even there, GRRM seems let Joshua have the final word, in imagining himself somehow justified by his Grand Purpose.

I expect a similar treatment of Rhaegar.  He might not be entirely free of moral criticism from other sympathetic characters or even from GRRM himself.  Shades of grey and all that.  But he still will be largely let off the hook.  And like Joshua York, I think he will be allowed by GRRM to keep his hands relatively clean of direct involvement in hideous crimes.  It would amuse me to be proven wrong, but that's how I'm calling it.