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Kolx

Isn’t it curious how there never was a dark haired targ king?

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4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

It was about who gets to sit on that horribly uncomfortable iron chair. 

Right.  So it was not about defining "Targaryen".  The two main claimants were both "Targaryens".

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1 minute ago, Mister Smikes said:

Right.  So it was not about defining "Targaryen".  The two main claimants were both "Targaryens".

Well, no. Laenor was Velaryon. I think he probably would've taken the name Targaryen if he had been selected, though. 

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On 5/18/2021 at 9:04 AM, Frey family reunion said:

So at this time, I would argue happenstance moreso than any intentional meaning.

The logical in-world conclusion must be happenstance (albeit reasonably plausible happenstance).  But with an author in control of the universe, he may have arranged this happenstance deliberately, and for a purpose.  And that purpose might be to cause readers and non-readers to expect the next rightful and fated Targaryen ruler to have blond hair.  He's setting us up for a surprise.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Well, no. Laenor was Velaryon.

Right.  My bad.  Whenever I see the names "Velaryon" and "Targaryen", I tend to gloss over the difference

Quote

I think he probably would've taken the name Targaryen if he had been selected, though. 

Not convinced.  King Robert did not do that.  And Velaryon is a perfectly regal name.  Had his name been Laenor Pissipantz, I could see him wanting to change it.  

Edited by Mister Smikes

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

It was about who gets to sit on that horribly uncomfortable iron chair. 

Baratheons are an entirely separate house from the Targaryens. They share some blood, but not much, thank God. It's a family of drunkards. And one usurper. 

 

At some point in time, being a Targaryen was not directly tied to how close your bloodline was that to the father of the House, Aegon Targaryen and his sister/Queen Rhaenys.

Technically speaking the royal line of House Targaryen (at the time of the rebellion) was descended from Viserys II (who never could hatch or ride a dragon) and the daughter of a Lynesse banker.  With additional bloodlines from the Martells, Daynes and Blackwoods.

Strictly speaking the bastard House, Longwater may have been a purer “Targaryen” house than the official, royal Targaryens.  
The only difference being, of course, that they didn’t sit on the Iron Throne and rule Westeros.  Which, I concede is a pretty big difference.

But don’t let “bloodline” fool you.  Because the Royal Targaryen bloodline, wasn’t all it was cracked up to be either.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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To be a Targaryen is above all to practice incest. Because I think that the brother-sister attraction of the Targaryens has partly a magical origin. 

Even though they married the martell, dayne and blackwood.
The two generations of incestuous marriages later probably strengthened their dragon blood which eventually led to the hatching of the dragons.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

At some point in time, being a Targaryen was not directly tied to how close your bloodline was that to the father of the House, Aegon Targaryen and his sister/Queen Rhaenys.

Technically speaking the royal line of House Targaryen (at the time of the rebellion) was descended from Viserys II (who never could hatch or ride a dragon) and the daughter of a Lynesse banker.  With additional bloodlines from the Martells, Daynes and Blackwoods.

Strictly speaking the bastard House, Longwater may have been a purer “Targaryen” house than the official, royal Targaryens.  
The only difference being, of course, that they didn’t sit on the Iron Throne and rule Westeros.  Which, I concede is a pretty big difference.

But don’t let “bloodline” fool you.  Because the Royal Targaryen bloodline, wasn’t all it was cracked up to be either.

The rogares are a Valyrian house descended from dragon lords.
With fab we learn Myriah martell could be the granddaughter of drazenko rogare. 
Dyanna dayne and betha blackwood are probably cousins not too far from their respective husbands. 

After mixing with the great houses of Westerosis, the Targaryens had two incestuous marriages that led to the birth of the dragons.
Martin had claimed that incest made the dragon gene more powerful.

It's not for nothing that dragons are born into the very incestuous Targaryen royal family.

Nothing is said that viserys ii will never be a dragonrider, silverwing was at the red lake at the end of regency. 
He can claim it.

Edited by Carrotecuite

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2 hours ago, Carrotecuite said:

Nothing is said that viserys ii will never be a dragonrider, silverwing was at the red lake at the end of regency. 
He can claim it.

I think Prince Viserys claiming a dragon would've been pretty  large news, worthy to be in TWOIAF. So.....he probably kept the egg. 

22 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Not convinced.  King Robert did not do that.  And Velaryon is a perfectly regal name.  Had his name been Laenor Pissipantz, I could see him wanting to change it.  

All kneel King Laenor of House Pissipantz, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the, oh **** it I ain't going to recite all the titles. 

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On 5/17/2021 at 10:05 PM, Rondo said:

It absolutely is significant.  Silver hair is the mark of a Targaryen.  So, unless the claimant has been under the unbroken gaze of the public since birth, yes, he will always be doubted.  There will never be a dark-haired Targaryen ruler.

Baelor came close.  But close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.  The eye color and the silver hair are the physical traits of the rightful ruler.  Robert's seat time was just a footnote.  Daenerys will return and claim her Westeros.  The Targaryen reign was never broken because the kingdom passed from Aerys to Viserys to Daenerys.  

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Prior the death of the dragons claiming a dragon was a clear sign of being a Targaryen. Rhaenyra used this to support the legitimacy of her sons despite them no looking Targaryen at all.

Alysanne Targaryen and her daughter Alyssa did not look much Targaryen.

Baelor Breakspear, his son Valarr would probably be accepted despite having darker colours.

Probably all this happens because GRRM kept the noble lines looking the same for thousands of years.

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It’s probably to differentiate them from the black-haired man who overthrew them, Robert Baratheon. Plus, I think George just has a thing for pretty blond people (and redheads, of course). 
 

Off the top of my head, there were three brunettes who were supposed to inherit the throne that didn’t: Rhaenys, Jace, and Baelor. 

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I reckon that GRRM first wrote out the names of the Targaryen kings without getting very deep into the details, and so shallowly imagined them all with "Targaryen = silver-gold hair", then later worked out the all the inter-marriages and other heirs, sprinkling in the realistic variation in hair colour among the people he hadn't yet envisioned.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2021 at 3:08 AM, Frey family reunion said:

At some point in time, being a Targaryen was not directly tied to how close your bloodline was that to the father of the House, Aegon Targaryen and his sister/Queen Rhaenys.

Technically speaking the royal line of House Targaryen (at the time of the rebellion) was descended from Viserys II (who never could hatch or ride a dragon) and the daughter of a Lynesse banker.  With additional bloodlines from the Martells, Daynes and Blackwoods.

Strictly speaking the bastard House, Longwater may have been a purer “Targaryen” house than the official, royal Targaryens.  
The only difference being, of course, that they didn’t sit on the Iron Throne and rule Westeros.  Which, I concede is a pretty big difference.

But don’t let “bloodline” fool you.  Because the Royal Targaryen bloodline, wasn’t all it was cracked up to be either.

To say that the Targaryens are no longer Targaryens because they married into other houses is to say that the Lannisters, Stark, Tully, Baratheons, Manderly, Freys and all the noble houses of westeros are the same and have no distinguishing features.

The idea that all these inbred families for thousands of years can develop genetic traits that distinguish them from each other makes no sense, from a scientist point of view.

Edited by Hug-hammer

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On 5/20/2021 at 4:13 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

It means the silver haired royals have the right to rule.  The silver hair and the purple eyes are the physical traits associated with the authority to rule.

A Targaryen crossed with a mere dark-haired noble will have the streak that Baelor and Darkstar have.  That streak in his hair is a clue that Darkstar is part Targaryen. 

A lad with pure dark hair will never be accepted. 

:agree:

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2021 at 10:13 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

A Targaryen crossed with a mere dark-haired noble will have the streak that Baelor and Darkstar have.  That streak in his hair is a clue that Darkstar is part Targaryen.

That's not correct.

Baelor Breakspear (son of a Targaryen and a Dornish woman) did not have any streak. It was his son Valarr, the one who did have one. Daeron the Drunken (son of a Targaryen and a Dayne) had "sandy brown hair", without any streak. And Duncan the Small (son of a Targaryen and a dark-haired Blackwood) has also been depicted without any streak in the World Book.

On 5/20/2021 at 10:13 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

A lad with pure dark hair will never be accepted. 

Nothing in the books suggests this. If I'm not forgeting anyone, there have been three princes of Dragonstone without any Valyrian features (the ones mentioned in the previous paragraph). And in none of those cases we have seen any hint of opposition to them as heirs to the throne.

Edited by The hairy bear

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On 5/20/2021 at 11:14 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Baratheons are an entirely separate house from the Targaryens. They share some blood, but not much, thank God. It's a family of drunkards. And one usurper. 

At the time of Robert's Rebellion, Robert was Aerys's first cousin once removed and Rhaegar called him "cousin".

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Corvus Black said:

At the time of Robert's Rebellion, Robert was Aerys's first cousin once removed and Rhaegar called him "cousin".

They are second cousins.
From then on, it's not really the same family. 
Otherwise all the noble houses of westeros would belong to the same family.

That's why Robert was never called a kinslayer for killing Rhaegar.

Edited by Carrotecuite

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50 minutes ago, Carrotecuite said:

They are second cousins.
From then on, it's not really the same family. 
Otherwise all the noble houses of westeros would belong to the same family.

That's why Robert was never called a kinslayer for killing Rhaegar.

Yes, the son of a first cousin once removed is a second cousin. Second and third cousins are just called "cousin". You don't say "Hello second cousin."

You miss the point as well. I was responding to someone who said that Robert had barely any Targaryen blood.

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