UK Politics - You can't correct a mistake, if you don't admit it was a mistake

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

Quite. I mean, you've got so much to say about BLM, yet you refuse to say what it is about their stated aims and obectives you find most objectionable. 

And no, it's not enough to wave your hand and say something something Marxism, a few months ago, on their website.... 

Their objectives are clearly listed on their website, today. All peaceful. All reasonable.

So what is it about the BLM movement that really frightens you, eh?

The GoFundMe for BLM UK had this blurb:

“We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world, including the abolition of the police".

The abolition of police has to be the single dumbest idea I’ve heard given such a wide airing on my lifetime. It’s conceivable that certain football fans built their impression of BLM based on this kind of rhetoric, and saw that the ‘take a knee’ gesture followed on its heels and associated the two. 

Yes, they explain what the gesture is supposed to mean. But maybe fans don’t take them at their word, precisely as everyone here did when we discussed why fans were booing - it was assumed they can’t be trusted to tell us and must just be racist.

[Spockydog]

The abolition of The Police, in its current form, seems like one of the first steps that must be taken towards a better, non-racist society, no? Especially in the States. 

[Heartofice]

Just now, Spockydog said:

The abolition of The Police, in its current form, seems like one of the first steps that must be taken towards a non-racist society, no? 

So you are calling for the abolition of the Uk police force?

[Spockydog]

Just now, Heartofice said:

So you are calling for the abolition of the Uk police force?

Did I say that? 

[Heartofice]

Just now, Spockydog said:

Did I say that? 

Why did you just edit your post to mention the United States? 

[Spockydog]

Just now, Heartofice said:

Why did you just edit your post to mention the United States? 

JFC. Is it not fucking obvious? 

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

JFC. Is it not fucking obvious? 

Yes it is. You wanted to pretend you weren’t talking about abolishing the UK police force.

[Spockydog]

Just now, Heartofice said:

Yes it is. You wanted to pretend you weren’t talking about abolishing the UK police force.

Oh, ffs. Will you ever stop putting words in people's mouths? 

 

[Spockydog]

The police, both here and abroad, are in dire need of radical reform.

Why did I have to get in between my bipolar brother and a wanker with a badge and an itchy taser finger after calling 999 for help?

Right there, that's one thing that needs to change. And that is just a drop in the ocean concerning the troubling relationship between the police and the people they are supposed to serve.

[DaveSumm]

15 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

The abolition of The Police, in its current form

The italicised doesn’t appear in that blurb. (Also, the word for what you’re describing is reform, nothing would have been abolished).

But anyway, all this is besides the point and was probably hashed out in 2020 in some thread or other. The point is, it’s plausible that someone might disagree with that and associate it with taking the knee. 

42 minutes ago, Hereward said:

Frankly, this seems like a strange hill to choose to die on. Sure, there are some people who aren’t racists, at least from my perspective, who oppose the BLM organisation for viscerally antisocialist reasons, hard as that may be for some to grasp, but I’m comfortable in assuming that the booing football fans do not have that as their primary, or even secondary, motivation. So, I’m going with racism as the cause.

For the record, I don’t have a particular high opinion of the average football stadium attendee and I suspect you’re right in some cases. But I think it’s worth working from HoI’s angle: if you’re really trying to convince people of your cause then sometimes you need to look at it from a cold marketing perspective, and ask if what you’re doing is working. Or to put it another way, are we trying to unmask as many racists as we can, or actually improve the situation?

[Week]

53 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

The GoFundMe for BLM UK had this blurb:

I would suggest going to the organization's website (as was suggested to you) rather than a random GoFundMe that contained a word that triggered you so.

https://ukblm.org/demands/

Re: Police:

Quote

WE WANT

• An end to prison and police expansion.

• Immediate dismissal of any police officer who is discriminatory, corrupt or uses excessive force. 

• An end to police surveillance and data-collection technologies (e.g. facial recognition and digital comms monitoring).

• An end to ‘Prevent’, the ‘war on terror’ and the surveillance and criminalisation of Muslim communities.

• An end to the incarceration of children, including in so-called ‘secure schools’.

• An end to the gangs databases, gang injunctions and joint enterprise doctrine.

• An end to the arming of police (e.g. tasers, spithoods and firearms).

Yeah, the booing is racist. (Whether due to ignorance of their platform or not. There are options beyond full-fledged support and booing)

[Spockydog]

12 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

The italicised doesn’t appear in that blurb. (Also, the word for what you’re describing is reform, nothing would have been abolished).

Ah well, fuck it. Now I think about it, yes, I am all for abolishing the police. 

Knock it all down and replace it with something more just and more humane. More community focused, and less corrupt. More fit for purpose. 

Does that make me a raving lefty loony? Probably, because it will never happen.

The cops will be granted more and more powers to oppress the people and in fifty years the UK will be like something out of fucking Robocop. 

 

 

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, Week said:

I would suggest going to the organization's website (as was suggested to you) rather than a random GoFundMe that contained a word that triggered you so.

https://ukblm.org/demands/

Re: Police:

Yeah, the booing is racist. 

Are you suggesting that go fund me has nothing to do with the BLM group? Where did the million quid it raised go?

[Derfel Cadarn]

24 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Ah well, fuck it. Now I think about it, yes, I am all for abolishing the police. 

Knock it all down and replace it with something more just and more humane. More community focused, and less corrupt. More fit for purpose. 

Does that make me a raving lefty loony? Probably, because it will never happen.

The cops will be granted more and more powers to oppress the people and in fifty years the UK will be like something out of fucking Robocop. 

 

 

Unless Dido Harding is in charge, in which case it will be less Robocop and more Ed-209

[DaveSumm]

20 minutes ago, Week said:

I would suggest going to the organization's website (as was suggested to you) rather than a random GoFundMe that contained a word that triggered you so.

https://ukblm.org/demands/

Re: Police:

Yeah, the booing is racist. 

Once again, you seem to have lost track of the discussion and have mistaken it for one where the task is to catch me out. I was arguing that it’s conceivable that a fan might make this association, and just maybe, not check back with the BLM website to see whether they’ve abolished the word abolished or not. 

As I mentioned earlier, I suspect a lot of them are probably a bit racist. But it doesn’t appear that simply ripping off their Scooby-Doo-monster-fake-head and saying “Ah-HA!” Racist!” actually achieves anything. It just drives a wedge between everyone and doesn’t make any progress.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, DaveSumm said:

if you’re really trying to convince people of your cause then sometimes you need to look at it from a cold marketing perspective, and ask if what you’re doing is working. Or to put it another way, are we trying to unmask as many racists as we can, or actually improve the situation?

Apparently 41% of Britains did say they didn't like such displays in support of blm.

But 49% did support them.  10 percent were undecided. 

Are you trying to convince people change needs to happen or merely trying to get people nod along to something that sounds nice and possibly abstract enough for them to fill in some gaps with their own biases?

Because I don't see any movement gaining any traction in accomplishing their goals if they shy away from doing anything that could ever be seen as displeasurble by a significant portion of the public.

Just Going treat everyone bad probably would not get a hard boo from a crowd and 99% of people polled about it probably would say that's a good message to spread.

Many Nationalists I find try to pull this trick often:say they hate the divisiveness that comes with talking about certain prevalences of bigotry in their society, cry for national unity whilst simultaneously bitching about various groups that conform to their ideal national image regarding their race, immigration status, religion, sexuality, etc etc.

 

[Spockydog]

11 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Once again, you seem to have lost track of the discussion and have mistaken it for one where the task is to catch me out. I was arguing that it’s conceivable that a fan might make this association, and just maybe, not check back with the BLM website to see whether they’ve abolished the word abolished or not. 

 

What is inconceivable, Dave, is the notion that these dolts, every single one a member of the Official England Supporters Club, will have been in the stadium without first hearing what Southgate, or Rashford, or Sterling, or anyone else in the team they pretend to support had to say about why they were kneeling.

Yet still they booed. Even louder than before.

Racists, the lot of them.

[Derfel Cadarn]

41% doesn’t really many much; 52% of the UK population thought Brexit was a great idea.

[Heartofice]

I wonder if players started doing nazi salutes tomorrow but said they were doing it to promote climate change causes and that it has nothing to do with actual nazis would we all be expected to pretend the gesture had no previous meanings or associations? And then if anyone complained they should be labelled as morons for not understanding 

[mormont]

15 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

As I mentioned earlier, I suspect a lot of them are probably a bit racist. But it doesn’t appear that simply ripping off their Scooby-Doo-monster-fake-head and saying “Ah-HA!” Racist!” actually achieves anything. It just drives a wedge between everyone and doesn’t make any progress.

I appreciate this may not be what you mean. But it does sound here as if you're saying that pointing out racism is a Bad Thing, or at least unproductive. And yet, try as I might, I cannot see any meaningful way to tackle racism that doesn't involve pointing out to people that racism is still a significant problem in our society, as well as what racist behaviour actually is, and what behaviour sends racist messages (and that includes booing a peaceful, symbolic protest against racism).

Maybe I am wrong about this. But I think the idea that racism can be tackled without offending anyone or doing anything controversial is just a fantasy indulged by people who are ultimately, for whatever reason, comfortable with the world as it is now. People who want the world to change recognise that this will inevitably make some people uncomfortable. And that some of those people will not like it, and may even boo. And that's part of the process of change.

Contemporary opinion polls suggested that when Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fists at the 1968 Olympics, a lot of people disapproved of that, too. Everything you and HoI have said in this thread, was said about that incident, pretty much. Did they also get their messaging wrong, or was it just that it made some people uncomfortable?