UK Politics - You can't correct a mistake, if you don't admit it was a mistake

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

But it doesn’t appear that simply ripping off their Scooby-Doo-monster-fake-head and saying “Ah-HA!” Racist!” actually achieves anything. It just drives a wedge between everyone and doesn’t make any progress.

I think the bigger wedges comes from the initial racism and attempts to try defend these people.

And yeah saying “Ah-Ha. racist.” can at times be effective.

 Society labeling certain modes of behavior as abhorrent and worth derision can lead to a lessening of such behavior at least in the public sphere.

[Spockydog]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I wonder if players started doing nazi salutes tomorrow but said they were doing it to promote climate change causes and that it has nothing to do with actual nazis would we all be expected to pretend the gesture had no previous meanings or associations?

Incoherent unravelling is tight.

 

[DaveSumm]

8 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

What is inconceivable, Dave, is the notion that these dolts, every single one a member of the Official England Supporters Club, will have been in the stadium without first hearing what Southgate, or Rashford, or Sterling, or anyone else in the team they pretend to support had to say about why they were kneeling.

Yet still they booed. Even louder than before.

Racists, the lot of them.

We did this a page ago: if we can’t take their word for it when they say why they’re booing, then maybe they don’t take ours when we tell them why we’re kneeling. 

I’m honestly just playing devils advocate here, I don’t often myself defending football fans. I have a pretty low opinion of these people I promise you. This could really be as simple as a quick rebrand: clean slate, come up with some other method of showing solidarity with the idea of ridding football of racism.

[Week]

16 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Once again, you seem to have lost track of the discussion and have mistaken it for one where the task is to catch me out. I was arguing that it’s conceivable that a fan might make this association, and just maybe, not check back with the BLM website to see whether they’ve abolished the word abolished or not. 

As I mentioned earlier, I suspect a lot of them are probably a bit racist. But it doesn’t appear that simply ripping off their Scooby-Doo-monster-fake-head and saying “Ah-HA!” Racist!” actually achieves anything. It just drives a wedge between everyone and doesn’t make any progress.

Which is an absurd fairy tale that you've concocted that serves to do what exactly? Excuse the obnoxious (racist) behavior of - as you admitted - likely racists? THEIR boorish behavior and defense of it, like yours, is a problem. Sure, you can whine about the (alleged) impact of calling a spade a spade (calling out racist, ignorant behavior and fragile folks hearing it called out) but in doing so you are calling out the third and fourth actor in a sequence of events.

The Devil needs no additional advocates. He has plenty.

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

The incoherence is hilarious.

 

The point is symbols have meaning and context and you don’t get to just remove that cos you say it means something else 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I wonder if players started doing nazi salutes tomorrow but said they were doing it to promote climate change causes and that it has nothing to do with actual nazis would we all be expected to pretend the gesture had no previous meanings or associations? And then if anyone complained they should be labelled as morons for not understanding 

Hmm using your logic I guess we can only shrug our shoulders and take the players ecpressed words as a given despite their overtly racist actions.

 

We don't know what's in their hearts or read minds..

[Spockydog]

Just now, Heartofice said:

The point is symbols have meaning and context and you don’t get to just remove that cos you say it means something else 

I edited my post to reflect your clutching at (pretty pathetic) straws.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Speaking of racist fucking morons,

Boris Johnson has gone to Cornwall to convince other G7 leaders about the need for a ‘greener’ future.

From London. By private plane.

https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1402659741738885120?s=21

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

The point is symbols have meaning and context and you don’t get to just remove that cos you say it means something else 

But the hypothetical nazi players say they're not racist. Why don't you just trust into these imaginary players words instead of being so presumptive? You don't know what's in their hearts. Stop trying to cancel them.

[DaveSumm]

8 minutes ago, Week said:

Which is an absurd fairy tale that you've concocted that serves to do what exactly?

I would urge you to read the part you bolded and reflect whether it merited describing as an ‘absurd fairy tale’.

[Heartofice]

17 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

We did this a page ago: if we can’t take their word for it when they say why they’re booing, then maybe they don’t take ours when we tell them why we’re kneeling. 

I’m honestly just playing devils advocate here, I don’t often myself defending football fans. I have a pretty low opinion of these people I promise you. This could really be as simple as a quick rebrand: clean slate, come up with some other method of showing solidarity with the idea of ridding football of racism.

As mentioned, Millwall already tried a different message and it got the support of the fans. 
 

Taking the knee is an empty gesture which has lost most of its positive meaning anyway, which is why players like Zaha have stopped doing it. Thinking that the job is getting done because people are kneeling isn’t really helping anyone, so I’ve got no idea why people think it’s some powerful symbol. 

So if the symbol isn’t creating any real positive change and is actually tending to just annoy a lot of people into the bargain, why continue to do it?

Again, goes back to my original point, if your message isn’t working, why double down and blame your audience rather than adjust your message 

[Week]

3 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I would urge you to read the part you bolded and reflect whether it merited describing as an ‘absurd fairy tale’.

I would urge you to read the remainder of the post and consider how relevant that is (it is not).

Tone policing is an age old strategy to uphold the status quo.

[Spockydog]

12 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Taking the knee is an empty gesture which has lost most of its positive meaning anyway, which is why players like Zaha have stopped doing it.

And what does he do when his colleagues are taking the knee? Does he stand on the halfway line, bellowing like a demented aurochs, as those around him perform a gesture he does not agree with? 

No, he doesn't. He stands there respectfully like a civilized human being. 

So please stop using Wilf's very personal stance as a means to defend the actions of these troglodytes. 

[Heartofice]

Just now, Spockydog said:

And what does he do when his colleagues are taking the knee? Does he stand on the touchline, bellowing like an demented aurochs, as those around him perform a gesture he does not agree with? 

No, he doesn't. He stands there respectfully like a civilized human being. 

So please stop using Wilf's very personal stance as a means to defend the actions of these troglodytes. 

As I’ve said, I don’t like the booing. My point is the message is poor, so stop blaming the audience and think about the message and why it doesn’t work.

[Varysblackfyre321]

@Heartofice

I'm curious on you're confusion. 

Are we not suddenly obligated to  always take an expressed reason for a racist action as the true reason?

If a player did use the nazi salute at a game and says they're merely doing so to raise awareness of climate change we’d have no choice but to not doubt them and be fully justified in seeing those who'd boo him as unreasonable—after all climate change is a serious issue.

I'm sorry, but I cannot break this down in simpler terms.  

 

[polishgenius]

All this 'Black Lives Matter is socialist' nonsense is nonsense anyway because BLM is a (bunch of) organisations and it is a social movement, and if any particular individual kneeling meant their support to be for the socialist organisation and not for the broad movement of 'racism is shit stop it' they would say so. As indeed many of them instead say that they are kneeling for the broad movement of 'racism is shit stop it' so there is no confusion. Others have already said it, but anyone confused by the difference is looking to be confused. 

The Nazi comparison is rubbish because (1) a Nazi salute is only a Nazi salute and (2) Nazism is an objectively evil belief, not a political position you might disagree with. If BLM was also the symbol of a violently, virulently racist group and belief that has caused untold damage and murder in the world the idea that it shouldn't be used to promote anti-racism might be valid. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

All this 'Black Lives Matter is socialist' nonsense is nonsense anyway because BLM is a (bunch of) organisations and it is a social movement, and if any particular individual kneeling meant their support to be for the socialist organisation and not for the broad movement of 'racism is shit stop it' they would say so. As indeed many of them instead say that they are kneeling for the broad movement of 'racism is shit stop it' so there is no confusion. Others have already said it, but anyone confused by the difference is looking to be confused. 

The Nazi comparison is rubbish because (1) a Nazi salute is only a Nazi salute and (2) Nazism is an objectively evil belief, not a political position you might disagree with. If BLM was also the symbol of a violently, virulently racist group and belief that has caused untold damage and murder in the world the idea that it shouldn't be used to promote anti-racism might be valid. 

The number of people who would disagree with that seems to have grown a lot in the last 20 years or so.

[Ser Reptitious]

You know, when you’re siding with the likes of Rosanne Barr, Tommy Robinson, and Richard Spencer for the sake of defending free speech in the most absolute sense... fine. 

I strongly disagree, but at least I can see the philosophical point you are making.

But then when people are exercising their free speech rights for a far nobler cause (against racism, rather than for it) and you suddenly change your tune and get concerned about the content or format of the message (which didn’t seem to bother you while you were defending racists’ freedom of speech).... well... hmm... it’s not really a good look, is it? Kinda makes it seem like you’re always defending the racists, regardless of which side of the philosophical debate they happen to be on.

[HexMachina]

22 hours ago, Gorn said:

As an estimate of number of racists among English football fans, 41% sounds about right.

Seems on the lower side to me...

20 hours ago, mormont said:

Players have worn Kick It Out shirts or branding during warmups and before some matches, so I guess so. I can't find a reference to this being booed, mostly because Google is chock full of stories about how Kick It Out deplore the booing of players taking a knee and are concerned that the fans doing this are racist.

(I do know that some of the black players I mentioned above refused to wear KIO shirts because, as noted, they felt the organisation was ineffectual. This does tend to undermine the idea that KIO are an exemplar of how to do anti-racism campaigning right.)

Clearly, the problem here is that the people doing the booing have got their message wrong, since it's coming across so badly and has unfortunately associated them with a particular movement. They should reconsider their gesture and think about another way to express their disapproval.

I don’t watch or follow football so only hear about these campaigns/initiatives second-hand, like in this thread. BUt from your post the Kick It Out campaign sounds more passive, less disruptive, not as in your face, whereas the decision to take a knee seems like a more visible, disruptive and in your face kind of approach. So I can’t say i’m too surprised, people are often supportive of protests against in justice when they can be easily ignored or overlooked, or don’t inconvenience them in any way. Not so much with more visible amd active stands. I believe there was a related discussion on the forum before regarding causing traffic disruption during a protest.

In case its unclear, I do support taking the knee and more disruptive forms of protest. Just making an observation regarding the different types of campaigns.

i also think its a strange idea to judge signs of protest on how many people are supportive. Surely the whole point is to raise awareness of uncomfortable societal truths. Of course people aren’t going to like that.

[Werthead]

Looks like reopening on 21 June will be delayed or watered down from a full reopening to some rules remaining in place.

The current trajectory does not look good, with a higher rate of hospitalisation than expected given the success of the vaccine rollout. Deaths have so far not risen in line, but given the significant lag, that might still be coming. There'll be questions here over what's going on if hospitalisations and deaths start rising given the promised effectiveness of the vaccine on the Delta variant, which is now dominant in the UK. Particularly concerning is early data suggesting that the Delta variant is not particularly slowed by a single vaccine dose, and even after two it appears to be more dangerous than the prior variants.

Meanwhile, the USA has told Britain to stop fucking around and come to an agreement with the EU, in its capacity as guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement. It's not a formal demarche (reprimand), but it's not far off.