UK Politics - You can't correct a mistake, if you don't admit it was a mistake

[Gorn]

16 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/sport/articles-reports/2020/10/16/do-fans-support-premier-league-players-knee-blm
 

When 41% of those polled don’t agree with the taking the knee gesture then you’d think someone with have a little think about messaging 

As an estimate of number of racists among English football fans, 41% sounds about right.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

It’s interesting that the poll specifically words the question as ‘do you support taking the knee in support of the BLM movement’, which would seem to run against the idea that it’s not specifically tied to it. I definitely think there should be some daylight between ‘BLM purist’ and ‘massive racist’ which a person might conceivably identify with.

Taking the knee was started in support of the BLM movement, Sky and the premier league both openly acknowledged and supported it, Black Lives Matter ( capital letters) was emblazoned on shirts and presenters wore badges with it on. 
 

There has been a counter factual argument going on recently to suggest that taking the knee has nothing to do with the BLM group or movement, that it’s purely about being against racism. That’s really an attempt to gaslight everyone and rewrite history. The truth is the gesture started as a highly political symbol , with all the associations that come with it, and it’s going to be difficult to remove that from people’s perspective. 

[Soylent Brown]

They disassociated themselves from it, as they didn't want to endorse the more problematic elements of the official movement. Is that not allowed?

You're just going to ignore that and insist that they have a secret ulterior motive? Are they secretly working with Bill Gates? Has Bill been scattering his microchips on the floor so that when a poor unsuspecting victim kneels, Bill gains control of them?

(And it does actually seem that the Venn diagram of kneeler-booers and anti-vaxxers is pretty much a circle.)

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Bale's Bald Spot said:

They disassociated themselves from it, as they didn't want to endorse the more problematic elements of the official movement. Is that not allowed?

You're just going to ignore that and insist that they have a secret ulterior motive? Are they secretly working with Bill Gates? Has Bill been scattering his microchips on the floor so that when a poor unsuspecting victim kneels, Bill gains control of them?

(And it does actually seem that the Venn diagram of kneeler-booers and anti-vaxxers is pretty much a circle.)

 No idea what your post is about here. But at least you acknowledge that the gesture has a relationship to the BLM movement and organisation. 
 

They tried to disassociate from it, which is really an acknowledgement that the whole thing was giving out the wrong message. 

[Soylent Brown]

They didn't try to, they did disassociate themselves from it.

The whole thing is giving out the wrong message? By that you're including the wish for equality, the insistence that black lives matter as much as white?

In your mind, is racism okay now because an anti-racism campaign once associated itself with a left-wing organisation briefly?

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Bale's Bald Spot said:

They didn't try to, they did disassociate themselves from it.

The whole thing is giving out the wrong message? 

Exactly. So Sky and the Premier League both acknowledged that associating with BLM wasn’t helpful and and so moved back from it.

So why is there even a discussion as to whether taking the knee is heavily associated with BLM the organisation? It has been from the very beginning. If both Sky and the Prem realise that the message is being poorly delivered, why are we trying to pretend otherwise?

[DaveSumm]

41 minutes ago, Bale's Bald Spot said:

They disassociated themselves from it, as they didn't want to endorse the more problematic elements of the official movement. Is that not allowed?

It’s entirely allowed, but we were talking about the intent of those booing. It certainly looks conceivable that a fan could think the gesture is in support of BLM explicitly, and they didn’t check what it currently means. I mean me personally, if I felt that way, I’d just shut the fuck up.

[Heartofice]

8 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Iif I felt that way, I’d just shut the fuck up.

Booing your own players is moronic, and there should be other avenues for voicing your dissatisfaction. That Millwall managed to find a more unifying way to get an anti racist message across is a little galling, given what a shitty club it is ( guess there are no Millwall fans here)

But this is one of those patterns that just keeps happening over and over. Two groups talking past each other and not even bothering to understand why the other is upset. 

[Soylent Brown]

Just now, Heartofice said:

Exactly. So Sky and the Premier League both acknowledged that associating with BLM wasn’t helpful and and so moved back from it.

So why is there even a discussion as to whether taking the knee is heavily associated with BLM the organisation? It has been from the very beginning. If both Sky and the Prem realise that the message is being poorly delivered, why are we trying to pretend otherwise?

Snipping bits out of my post to try to make it seem like we agree is poor form. Taking the knee isn't solely associated to BLM, so why pretend that it is?

It seems that you want is for the footballers to stop protesting against racial inequality, but why? It upsets racists, and people that don't like to be reminded that racism exists, but that's not an especially good reason to stop. You say that the message is being poorly delivered, but commentators are very, very clear in what they say at the beginning of every match. I'm starting to think you wouldn't receive any gesture well.

You can blather on and on about BLM, but that's not what the footballers are kneeling for, even if it was initially part of the reason kneeling began.

[Spockydog]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

But this is one of those patterns that just keeps happening over and over. Two groups talking past each other and not even bothering to understand why the other is upset. 

Quite. I mean, you've got so much to say about BLM, yet you refuse to say what it is about their stated aims and obectives you find most objectionable. 

And no, it's not enough to wave your hand and say something something Marxism, a few months ago, on their website.... 

Their objectives are clearly listed on their website, today. All peaceful. All reasonable.

So what is it about the BLM movement that really frightens you, eh?

 

[Soylent Brown]

18 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

It’s entirely allowed, but we were talking about the intent of those booing. It certainly looks conceivable that a fan could think the gesture is in support of BLM explicitly, and they didn’t check what it currently means. I mean me personally, if I felt that way, I’d just shut the fuck up.

But it is constantly explained on telly why the players are kneeling. Any misunderstanding at this point is surely deliberate.

[Heartofice]

Just now, Bale's Bald Spot said:

Snipping bits out of my post to try to make it seem like we agree is poor form. Taking the knee isn't solely associated to BLM, so why pretend that it is?

 

The reason I snipped the rest of your post was because it was irrelevant and was trying to get me to say things I don’t think. That is poor form.

You can just pretend that the association with BLM never existed or that because Sky backed away from it that it suddenly has no association. It was there from the beginning and the gesture hasn’t changed in that time so why expect everyone to suddenly think it’s about something different now?

As for what I want, this whole conversation started due to the ignorant assertion that people booing are doing it because they are racist. I’m trying trying to shine a little light on that misguided assertion. Ideally we’d all find a way to combat racism that is actually effective, isn’t tied into socialist political movements, and isn’t just an empty gesture. 

[Spockydog]

What sickens me is these people are part of the official England supporters group, and highly privileged to be there in the first place.

Gareth Southgate has spelled it out, in eloquent detail and in terms even the most intellectually-challenged England supporters should understand, exactly why they are kneeling.

So no matter what HoI, or any other apologist would have you believe, the people booing are racists, pure and simple. 

[Soylent Brown]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

The reason I snipped the rest of your post was because it was irrelevant and was trying to get me to say things I don’t think. That is poor form.

You can just pretend that the association with BLM never existed or that because Sky backed away from it that it suddenly has no association. It was there from the beginning and the gesture hasn’t changed in that time so why expect everyone to suddenly think it’s about something different now?

As for what I want, this whole conversation started due to the ignorant assertion that people booing are doing it because they are racist. I’m trying trying to shine a little light on that misguided assertion. Ideally we’d all find a way to combat racism that is actually effective, isn’t tied into socialist political movements, and isn’t just an empty gesture. 

Writing things you disagree with isn't poor form, you dolt. Editing quotes is though.

But anyway, you represent all of the people booing, do you? Do you represent the chap who shouted racist abuse at Rio Ferdinand the other week too? I expect he was booing.

And also, we're back to the unless it completely solves racism, it's not worth doing argument, apparently. It really does seem like there isn't a course of action anyone could take that you wouldn't criticise. Much better to just leave everything as it is, eh?

[Spockydog]

And here's an idea. In order to combat racism, maybe stop defending racism. 

Brrrrrr. Radical, I know, but small steps and all that.... 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Genuine question: was there a ‘window’ in which fans could have booed Kick It Out? Did it have a minute silence or something?

Players have worn Kick It Out shirts or branding during warmups and before some matches, so I guess so. I can't find a reference to this being booed, mostly because Google is chock full of stories about how Kick It Out deplore the booing of players taking a knee and are concerned that the fans doing this are racist.

(I do know that some of the black players I mentioned above refused to wear KIO shirts because, as noted, they felt the organisation was ineffectual. This does tend to undermine the idea that KIO are an exemplar of how to do anti-racism campaigning right.)

9 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

As for what I want, this whole conversation started due to the ignorant assertion that people booing are doing it because they are racist. I’m trying trying to shine a little light on that misguided assertion.

Clearly, the problem here is that the people doing the booing have got their message wrong, since it's coming across so badly and has unfortunately associated them with a particular movement. They should reconsider their gesture and think about another way to express their disapproval.

[Heartofice]

27 minutes ago, mormont said:

Players have worn Kick It Out shirts or branding during warmups and before some matches, so I guess so. I can't find a reference to this being booed, mostly because Google is chock full of stories about how Kick It Out deplore the booing of players taking a knee and are concerned that the fans doing this are racist.

(I do know that some of the black players I mentioned above refused to wear KIO shirts because, as noted, they felt the organisation was ineffectual. This does tend to undermine the idea that KIO are an exemplar of how to do anti-racism campaigning right.)

I wonder if you think fans aren’t booing Kick it Out because they are secretly rubbing their hands at how ineffectual it is. 

[mormont]

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I wonder if you think fans aren’t booing Kick it Out because they are secretly rubbing their hands at how ineffectual it is. 

I don't think fans aren't booing Kick It Out. I didn't find any examples of that on a cursory Google search, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

I don't think fans aren't booing Kick It Out. I didn't find any examples of that on a cursory Google search, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You’d acknowledge that taking the knee has garnered a much more negative reaction than Kick it Out though?

[Hereward]

Probably because Kick It Out was much easier to ignore if you were so minded. 
 

Frankly, this seems like a strange hill to choose to die on. Sure, there are some people who aren’t racists, at least from my perspective, who oppose the BLM organisation for viscerally antisocialist reasons, hard as that may be for some to grasp, but I’m comfortable in assuming that the booing football fans do not have that as their primary, or even secondary, motivation. So, I’m going with racism as the cause.