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Which Tyler

UK Politics - You can't correct a mistake, if you don't admit it was a mistake

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41% doesn’t really many much; 52% of the UK population thought Brexit was a great idea.

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Posted (edited)

I wonder if players started doing nazi salutes tomorrow but said they were doing it to promote climate change causes and that it has nothing to do with actual nazis would we all be expected to pretend the gesture had no previous meanings or associations? And then if anyone complained they should be labelled as morons for not understanding 

Edited by Heartofice

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15 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

As I mentioned earlier, I suspect a lot of them are probably a bit racist. But it doesn’t appear that simply ripping off their Scooby-Doo-monster-fake-head and saying “Ah-HA!” Racist!” actually achieves anything. It just drives a wedge between everyone and doesn’t make any progress.

I appreciate this may not be what you mean. But it does sound here as if you're saying that pointing out racism is a Bad Thing, or at least unproductive. And yet, try as I might, I cannot see any meaningful way to tackle racism that doesn't involve pointing out to people that racism is still a significant problem in our society, as well as what racist behaviour actually is, and what behaviour sends racist messages (and that includes booing a peaceful, symbolic protest against racism).

Maybe I am wrong about this. But I think the idea that racism can be tackled without offending anyone or doing anything controversial is just a fantasy indulged by people who are ultimately, for whatever reason, comfortable with the world as it is now. People who want the world to change recognise that this will inevitably make some people uncomfortable. And that some of those people will not like it, and may even boo. And that's part of the process of change.

Contemporary opinion polls suggested that when Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fists at the 1968 Olympics, a lot of people disapproved of that, too. Everything you and HoI have said in this thread, was said about that incident, pretty much. Did they also get their messaging wrong, or was it just that it made some people uncomfortable?

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16 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

But it doesn’t appear that simply ripping off their Scooby-Doo-monster-fake-head and saying “Ah-HA!” Racist!” actually achieves anything. It just drives a wedge between everyone and doesn’t make any progress.

I think the bigger wedges comes from the initial racism and attempts to try defend these people.

And yeah saying “Ah-Ha. racist.” can at times be effective.

 Society labeling certain modes of behavior as abhorrent and worth derision can lead to a lessening of such behavior at least in the public sphere.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I wonder if players started doing nazi salutes tomorrow but said they were doing it to promote climate change causes and that it has nothing to do with actual nazis would we all be expected to pretend the gesture had no previous meanings or associations?

Incoherent unravelling is tight.

 

Edited by Spockydog

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8 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

What is inconceivable, Dave, is the notion that these dolts, every single one a member of the Official England Supporters Club, will have been in the stadium without first hearing what Southgate, or Rashford, or Sterling, or anyone else in the team they pretend to support had to say about why they were kneeling.

Yet still they booed. Even louder than before.

Racists, the lot of them.

We did this a page ago: if we can’t take their word for it when they say why they’re booing, then maybe they don’t take ours when we tell them why we’re kneeling. 

I’m honestly just playing devils advocate here, I don’t often myself defending football fans. I have a pretty low opinion of these people I promise you. This could really be as simple as a quick rebrand: clean slate, come up with some other method of showing solidarity with the idea of ridding football of racism.

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16 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Once again, you seem to have lost track of the discussion and have mistaken it for one where the task is to catch me out. I was arguing that it’s conceivable that a fan might make this association, and just maybe, not check back with the BLM website to see whether they’ve abolished the word abolished or not. 

As I mentioned earlier, I suspect a lot of them are probably a bit racist. But it doesn’t appear that simply ripping off their Scooby-Doo-monster-fake-head and saying “Ah-HA!” Racist!” actually achieves anything. It just drives a wedge between everyone and doesn’t make any progress.

Which is an absurd fairy tale that you've concocted that serves to do what exactly? Excuse the obnoxious (racist) behavior of - as you admitted - likely racists? THEIR boorish behavior and defense of it, like yours, is a problem. Sure, you can whine about the (alleged) impact of calling a spade a spade (calling out racist, ignorant behavior and fragile folks hearing it called out) but in doing so you are calling out the third and fourth actor in a sequence of events.

The Devil needs no additional advocates. He has plenty.

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4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

The incoherence is hilarious.

 

The point is symbols have meaning and context and you don’t get to just remove that cos you say it means something else 

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2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I wonder if players started doing nazi salutes tomorrow but said they were doing it to promote climate change causes and that it has nothing to do with actual nazis would we all be expected to pretend the gesture had no previous meanings or associations? And then if anyone complained they should be labelled as morons for not understanding 

Hmm using your logic I guess we can only shrug our shoulders and take the players ecpressed words as a given despite their overtly racist actions.

 

We don't know what's in their hearts or read minds.:cheers:.

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Posted (edited)
Just now, Heartofice said:

The point is symbols have meaning and context and you don’t get to just remove that cos you say it means something else 

I edited my post to reflect your clutching at (pretty pathetic) straws.

Edited by Spockydog

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1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

The point is symbols have meaning and context and you don’t get to just remove that cos you say it means something else 

But the hypothetical nazi players say they're not racist. Why don't you just trust into these imaginary players words instead of being so presumptive? You don't know what's in their hearts. Stop trying to cancel them.:hat:

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8 minutes ago, Week said:

Which is an absurd fairy tale that you've concocted that serves to do what exactly?

I would urge you to read the part you bolded and reflect whether it merited describing as an ‘absurd fairy tale’.

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17 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

We did this a page ago: if we can’t take their word for it when they say why they’re booing, then maybe they don’t take ours when we tell them why we’re kneeling. 

I’m honestly just playing devils advocate here, I don’t often myself defending football fans. I have a pretty low opinion of these people I promise you. This could really be as simple as a quick rebrand: clean slate, come up with some other method of showing solidarity with the idea of ridding football of racism.

As mentioned, Millwall already tried a different message and it got the support of the fans. 
 

Taking the knee is an empty gesture which has lost most of its positive meaning anyway, which is why players like Zaha have stopped doing it. Thinking that the job is getting done because people are kneeling isn’t really helping anyone, so I’ve got no idea why people think it’s some powerful symbol. 

So if the symbol isn’t creating any real positive change and is actually tending to just annoy a lot of people into the bargain, why continue to do it?

Again, goes back to my original point, if your message isn’t working, why double down and blame your audience rather than adjust your message 

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3 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I would urge you to read the part you bolded and reflect whether it merited describing as an ‘absurd fairy tale’.

I would urge you to read the remainder of the post and consider how relevant that is (it is not).

Tone policing is an age old strategy to uphold the status quo.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Taking the knee is an empty gesture which has lost most of its positive meaning anyway, which is why players like Zaha have stopped doing it.

And what does he do when his colleagues are taking the knee? Does he stand on the halfway line, bellowing like a demented aurochs, as those around him perform a gesture he does not agree with? 

No, he doesn't. He stands there respectfully like a civilized human being. 

So please stop using Wilf's very personal stance as a means to defend the actions of these troglodytes. 

Edited by Spockydog

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Just now, Spockydog said:

And what does he do when his colleagues are taking the knee? Does he stand on the touchline, bellowing like an demented aurochs, as those around him perform a gesture he does not agree with? 

No, he doesn't. He stands there respectfully like a civilized human being. 

So please stop using Wilf's very personal stance as a means to defend the actions of these troglodytes. 

As I’ve said, I don’t like the booing. My point is the message is poor, so stop blaming the audience and think about the message and why it doesn’t work.

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Posted (edited)

@Heartofice

I'm curious on you're confusion. 

Are we not suddenly obligated to  always take an expressed reason for a racist action as the true reason?

If a player did use the nazi salute at a game and says they're merely doing so to raise awareness of climate change we’d have no choice but to not doubt them and be fully justified in seeing those who'd boo him as unreasonable—after all climate change is a serious issue.

I'm sorry, but I cannot break this down in simpler terms. :( 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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All this 'Black Lives Matter is socialist' nonsense is nonsense anyway because BLM is a (bunch of) organisations and it is a social movement, and if any particular individual kneeling meant their support to be for the socialist organisation and not for the broad movement of 'racism is shit stop it' they would say so. As indeed many of them instead say that they are kneeling for the broad movement of 'racism is shit stop it' so there is no confusion. Others have already said it, but anyone confused by the difference is looking to be confused. 

The Nazi comparison is rubbish because (1) a Nazi salute is only a Nazi salute and (2) Nazism is an objectively evil belief, not a political position you might disagree with. If BLM was also the symbol of a violently, virulently racist group and belief that has caused untold damage and murder in the world the idea that it shouldn't be used to promote anti-racism might be valid. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

All this 'Black Lives Matter is socialist' nonsense is nonsense anyway because BLM is a (bunch of) organisations and it is a social movement, and if any particular individual kneeling meant their support to be for the socialist organisation and not for the broad movement of 'racism is shit stop it' they would say so. As indeed many of them instead say that they are kneeling for the broad movement of 'racism is shit stop it' so there is no confusion. Others have already said it, but anyone confused by the difference is looking to be confused. 

The Nazi comparison is rubbish because (1) a Nazi salute is only a Nazi salute and (2) Nazism is an objectively evil belief, not a political position you might disagree with. If BLM was also the symbol of a violently, virulently racist group and belief that has caused untold damage and murder in the world the idea that it shouldn't be used to promote anti-racism might be valid. 

The number of people who would disagree with that seems to have grown a lot in the last 20 years or so. :(

Edited by Luzifer's right hand

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