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What if Viserys was alive?


Falcon2909
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18 hours ago, Corvus Black said:

Then he would be killed by Drogo at that time. For all that it matters Aegon is a Targaryen, and the rightful king at that.

Viserys is the rightful king.  He was favored by Aerys and a pure Targaryen at that.  He was already crowned on Dragonstone.  Aegon's authenticity is subject to question.  Viserys is widely known and proven.  But this is all irrelevant after the dragons were brought back by Daenerys.  In Targaryen hierarchy, she who rides dragons rule. 

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3 hours ago, James West said:

Viserys is the rightful king.  He was favored by Aerys and a pure Targaryen at that.  He was already crowned on Dragonstone.  Aegon's authenticity is subject to question.  Viserys is widely known and proven.  But this is all irrelevant after the dragons were brought back by Daenerys.  In Targaryen hierarchy, she who rides dragons rule. 

Aerys knew he was dying soon so named the oldest Targaryen male as his heir as Aegon was only a baby, and Rhaella crowned Viserys when it was public knowledge that Aegon was dead. With Aegon being revealed to be alive his claim to the Iron Throne is stronger. Tyrion even says in ADWD that Aegon's claim is stronger than Dany's. 

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On 5/25/2021 at 8:36 AM, Corvus Black said:

Then he would be killed by Drogo at that time. For all that it matters Aegon is a Targaryen, and the rightful king at that.

From a legal standpoint, Aerys made Viserys his heir over Aegon after the Trident. So if both were still alive, there would be a question of whose claim is better.

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2 hours ago, Corvus Black said:

Did you not read my post that is literally the one above yours?

I did... and? It didn't address the point and made some speculation stated as fact that wasn't wholly relevant to the point. Regardless of his motivations, which I think had more to do with distrust for Dorne, Aerys made Viserys the heir. If both Viserys and Aegon were alive, it would be a point of dispute whose claim is better. Legally it'd be Viserys. Tyrion saying Aegon has a better claim than Dany is wholly irrelevant. Viserys isn't a woman. 

If you want to discuss the issue, great. If you just want to try and score cheap points by making assumptions about me personally, don't bother. 

 

Edited by Lord Lannister
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On 5/22/2021 at 3:00 PM, Lord Lannister said:

If Viserys had stayed in Pentos as counseled(most feasible way for him to avoid being crowned prematurely) he'd likely be with the Golden Company and Young Griff would never be heard from unless some other ill fate met with Viserys.

Why did Viserys accompany the Dothraki anyways? They only respect strength, strength that Viserys does not have.

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Why did Viserys accompany the Dothraki anyways? They only respect strength, strength that Viserys does not have.

Viserys thought if he stayed with Drogo he'd get his crown sooner. Which was true enough. Viserys basically had a distorted view of reality based on his self importance.

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On 5/27/2021 at 3:39 PM, Lord Lannister said:

I did... and? It didn't address the point and made some speculation stated as fact that wasn't wholly relevant to the point. Regardless of his motivations, which I think had more to do with distrust for Dorne, Aerys made Viserys the heir. If both Viserys and Aegon were alive, it would be a point of dispute whose claim is better. Legally it'd be Viserys. Tyrion saying Aegon has a better claim than Dany is wholly irrelevant. Viserys isn't a woman. 

I fail to see how it didn't address the point, and you saying I'm speculating on who the legal king would be when you are doing the same is hypocritical. There are precedents for both however the oldest and clearest custom in Westeros is that the sons of the firstborn son come before the brothers of the firstborn son.  

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  • 10 months later...

I wholeheartedly suspect to a 75% certainty that King Visery Targaryen III  . . . is still alive in the aSoI&F book series: 

 

 

This is a very interesting perspective!! If I may insert my (f)Viserys theory in here ~ “This is one of the many reasons why I’ve long argued for (Viserys III as the true identity of Gerold Dayne) legitimacy, in addition to all the other stuff: The secrecy makes more sense if (Darkstar is the genuine & authentic Viserys III) is legitimate, because that legitimacy is what makes him actually dangerous.”

Prince Doran does state that Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne in DANCE while his daughter Princess Arianne muses that Ser Gerold is the most handsome man in all the land and that their children together would be as beautiful as the dragonlords. However we have no precise idea when or where he was born nor who his parents are as astutely expressed by “Ashley of Naath” in this short Youtube video:

 

So I ask, with all due respect, why the secrecy? Does it make more sense if Ser Gerold Dayne is the fully grown boy king crowned on Dragonstone at 8.5 years old . . . King Viserys III?!?

Why the secrecy about his exact bloodlines to House Dayne of Starfall and who his parents & grandparents are which would validate his status as “cousin” especially as that family tree displays in the aforementioned Youtube video by “Ashley of Naath”?

What wouldn’t Ser Arthur Dayne do to help his best friend’s mother in her hour of despair? Did he facilitate transfer of the boy king Viserys III from Dragonstone to Starfall with the aid of Ser Willem Darry and perhaps other Targaryen loyalists like his sister Lady Ashara who staged the 8.5 year old as a page at Starfall with slightly dyed hair while his royal shelter in the castle High Hermitage was being completed . . . something like what the Lannister loyalists did with Prince Tommen in CLASH where he was placed in a protective shelter at Castle Rosby as a page with dyed dark hair?

After he went thru puberty . . . Viserys likely looked far less like the boyish son of Queen Rhaella and King Aerys II as he grew into his false identity of the teenage squire Gerold Dayne I submit.

I concede that the (f)Aegon theory is far more likely than my (f)Viserys theory but . . . the seeds are there should GRRM choose to water them and he planted them voluntarily & knowingly across various aSoI&F books so again I inquire . . . why all the secrecy about Ser Gerold Dayne aka the Darkstar, endowed as he expressly is with the three Valyrian blood traits that ONLY Ser Laenor Velaryon is specifically noted to possess:

1. Purple eyes

2. Aquiline nose

3. Silvery-white hair

. . . as noted by Archmaester Gyldayn on page 374 in “Fire & Blood”, unless he also, as Laenor Velaryon was, born to a Targaryen royal mother . . . like seriously why all the secrecy about how exactly old the Darkstar is and who exactly gave birth to the newborn Gerold Dayne?!? GRRM wanted us to know that Dragonstone village has little boys and girls with Targaryen features running all over with their platinum hair blowing around in the salty sea air so there can be no doubt that Queen Rhaella Targaryen would be well aware of them as she was formerly Princess of Dragonstone from the time she was married off at 12 to her brother Prince Aerys II.

Why would GRRM want us to know that Lannister loyalists employed a royal decoy for Princess Myrcella in her cousin Rosamund as part of her security detail to Dorne? Did the Targaryen loyalists sworn to Queen Rhaella and her family have any such inclinations about the Prince Viserys III in the waning weeks of the War of the Usurper?!? If so . . . then Ser Willem and those Targaryen loyalists were in a most favorable & plausible locale according to GRRM were they not?

Just this January, I received yet another clue from GRRM or a seed that he planted which provides circumstantial evidence of my theory . . . it was the NYD online test that Shadi Barham helped create where Prince Tommen Baratheon was whisked off secretly to the Rosby castle where he was sheltered in disguise as a page with artificially (dyed?) hair. So this false identity of a brown haired lowborn page was created by Lannister loyalists (namely Lord Tyrion ~ Hand of the King) for a character who was already himself a false identity Baratheon Prince via bastard deception . . . one of several forms of false identity that GRRM really likes to use just as imposters . . . frauds . . . child swaps . . . substitutes and the like have been throughout the several aSoI&F books OK?

Now Tommen's sister, Princess Myrcella Baratheon is also a false identity via bastard deception and it is through her that GRRM elects to introduce the concept of royal decoy with her cousin Rosamund. So we know that Rosamund was selected again by Lannister loyalists to serve in the security plan to Dorne for the false Baratheon Princess Myrcella. Might anyone else we met have been deemed to deserve a royal decoy too? Perhaps by Targaryen loyalists in their hour of utter despair as the tide inevitably turned against the Royal Targaryen household at Dragonstone during the last months of the War of the Usurper?

Well you might ask yourself . . . where might they secretly acquire a Targaryen royal decoy for the newly crowned boy king of 8.5 years of age ~ King Viserys III? His mother Queen Rhaella who served as Princess of Dragonstone from the time she was married off to her brother at 13 years old would surely be familiar with the residents of Dragonstone village . . . some of whom surely served as domestic staff in the royal castle.

GRRM wanted us to know that dragonseeds often bear the Valyrian blood traits of: purple eyes, platinum hair and aquiline nose which are referenced on page 374 in “Fire & Blood” in describing Ser Laenor Velaryon as these three traits bespoke his Valyrian blood it was noted by Grand ArchMaester Gyldane.

We have been told that Ser Laenor Velaryon was the most objectively attractive male on either side of his Targaryen - Velaryon family and that his mother was Princess Rhaenys Targaryen (the Queen who never was). Do you know who else GRRM has purposely introduced as possessing that same trio of Valyrian blood traits of: aquiline nose, platinum hair and purple eyes? Ser Gerold Dayne the Darkstar!! One guess for who I believe his mysterious mother might be?!?

Princess Arianne Martell says about Ser Gerold that he is easily the most objectively attractive man in Dorne and that their children together would be as beautiful as the dragonlords. Her father, Prince Doran Martell says he is the most dangerous man in Dorne . . . despite the fact that he apparently has no nuclear family history whatsoever . . . no mother . . . no father . . . no sisters or brothers . . . not one grandparent out of four even to bolster his strength at arms with influence or treasure.

I've said so much already but there is sooo much more and thus let me stop for now with this preface. GRRM has explicitly asserted that the aSoI&F faithful should not allow themselves to get caught up in chronological accuracy . . . because what happens in a day for one character may take a fortnight for another but the chapter length is identical. He has for whatever reason elected to grant Ser Gerold Dayne a birth range of 270 AC to 274 AC rather than an exact birthday/birthyear as EVERYONE else. I'm not trying to hear that the Darkstar is too old to be the false identity of King Viserys III because no one but GRRM knows how young he is exactly (25 and 5/8ths?? 27 years old? 24 and 1/4th??).

The Darkstar has all the personality traits of the exalted asshole that I can see King Viserys III growing up to be despite his years of training to master his false identity. With a network of nobles loyal via personal or family history to her Grace Queen Rhaella . . . Ser Arthur Dayne, Prince Doran Martell, Ser Willem Darry, and even Prince Oberyn Martell . . . I'm here to tell you . . . I can see the disparate pieces of a secret security plan to get the baby brother of the Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen from Dragonstone to Starfall by boat where he was received by Targaryen loyalists from House Dayne at the behest of Ser Arthur who then whisked the young Viserys III off secretly to be sheltered at the house with a big red door and lemon tree at the castle High Hermitage where like Prince Tommen (a false Baratheon Prince) he was stationed as squire with artificially dyed hair in a midnight black streak on his silvery white head. The Dragonstone decoy theory has been cultivated over time and is bolstered by Preston Jacobs on YouTube in “Daenerys and her page of lies” though we disagree as to which of the Targaryen exiles is the Dragonstone village decoy it is still compelling commentary:

 

 

All the misinformation that GRRM elects to introduce for the audience in this Daenerys chapter comes from a suspect source . . . fViserys who doesn't really know anything accurately (or how to speak High Valyrian for that matter) as as he was merely drilled over the years in Targaryen factoids, asertions, rumors & gossip by the #1 Targaryen fanboy ~ Ser Willem Darry.

 

I welcome all criticism in good faith and with grace as a longstanding fan of the series who is just holding on to the flickering flame of false hope that I will be able to buy TWOW this winter :)

Edited by Young Herschel
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On 4/18/2022 at 3:19 PM, Young Herschel said:

I wholeheartedly suspect to a 75% certainty that King Visery Targaryen III  . . . is still alive in the aSoI&F book series:

Why would anyone keep a double around for over 15 years? Doubles are for short term use (e.g. put the double in the conspicuous carriage while the disguised real one rides a horse in the back). If you publicly display the double for 15 years then the world thinks the double is the real one and no one will believe it when you suddenly trot someone else out.

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On 4/19/2022 at 12:49 AM, Young Herschel said:

I wholeheartedly suspect to a 75% certainty that King Visery Targaryen III  . . . is still alive in the aSoI&F book series: 

 

 

This is a very interesting perspective!! If I may insert my (f)Viserys theory in here ~ “This is one of the many reasons why I’ve long argued for (Viserys III as the true identity of Gerold Dayne) legitimacy, in addition to all the other stuff: The secrecy makes more sense if (Darkstar is the genuine & authentic Viserys III) is legitimate, because that legitimacy is what makes him actually dangerous.”

Prince Doran does state that Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne in DANCE while his daughter Princess Arianne muses that Ser Gerold is the most handsome man in all the land and that their children together would be as beautiful as the dragonlords. However we have no precise idea when or where he was born nor who his parents are as astutely expressed by “Ashley of Naath” in this short Youtube video:

 

So I ask, with all due respect, why the secrecy? Does it make more sense if Ser Gerold Dayne is the fully grown boy king crowned on Dragonstone at 8.5 years old . . . King Viserys III?!?

Why the secrecy about his exact bloodlines to House Dayne of Starfall and who his parents & grandparents are which would validate his status as “cousin” especially as that family tree displays in the aforementioned Youtube video by “Ashley of Naath”?

What wouldn’t Ser Arthur Dayne do to help his best friend’s mother in her hour of despair? Did he facilitate transfer of the boy king Viserys III from Dragonstone to Starfall with the aid of Ser Willem Darry and perhaps other Targaryen loyalists like his sister Lady Ashara who staged the 8.5 year old as a page at Starfall with slightly dyed hair while his royal shelter in the castle High Hermitage was being completed . . . something like what the Lannister loyalists did with Prince Tommen in CLASH where he was placed in a protective shelter at Castle Rosby as a page with dyed dark hair?

After he went thru puberty . . . Viserys likely looked far less like the boyish son of Queen Rhaella and King Aerys II as he grew into his false identity of the teenage squire Gerold Dayne I submit.

I concede that the (f)Aegon theory is far more likely than my (f)Viserys theory but . . . the seeds are there should GRRM choose to water them and he planted them voluntarily & knowingly across various aSoI&F books so again I inquire . . . why all the secrecy about Ser Gerold Dayne aka the Darkstar, endowed as he expressly is with the three Valyrian blood traits that ONLY Ser Laenor Velaryon is specifically noted to possess:

1. Purple eyes

2. Aquiline nose

3. Silvery-white hair

. . . as noted by Archmaester Gyldayn on page 374 in “Fire & Blood”, unless he also, as Laenor Velaryon was, born to a Targaryen royal mother . . . like seriously why all the secrecy about how exactly old the Darkstar is and who exactly gave birth to the newborn Gerold Dayne?!? GRRM wanted us to know that Dragonstone village has little boys and girls with Targaryen features running all over with their platinum hair blowing around in the salty sea air so there can be no doubt that Queen Rhaella Targaryen would be well aware of them as she was formerly Princess of Dragonstone from the time she was married off at 12 to her brother Prince Aerys II.

Why would GRRM want us to know that Lannister loyalists employed a royal decoy for Princess Myrcella in her cousin Rosamund as part of her security detail to Dorne? Did the Targaryen loyalists sworn to Queen Rhaella and her family have any such inclinations about the Prince Viserys III in the waning weeks of the War of the Usurper?!? If so . . . then Ser Willem and those Targaryen loyalists were in a most favorable & plausible locale according to GRRM were they not?

Just this January, I received yet another clue from GRRM or a seed that he planted which provides circumstantial evidence of my theory . . . it was the NYD online test that Shadi Barham helped create where Prince Tommen Baratheon was whisked off secretly to the Rosby castle where he was sheltered in disguise as a page with artificially (dyed?) hair. So this false identity of a brown haired lowborn page was created by Lannister loyalists (namely Lord Tyrion ~ Hand of the King) for a character who was already himself a false identity Baratheon Prince via bastard deception . . . one of several forms of false identity that GRRM really likes to use just as imposters . . . frauds . . . child swaps . . . substitutes and the like have been throughout the several aSoI&F books OK?

Now Tommen's sister, Princess Myrcella Baratheon is also a false identity via bastard deception and it is through her that GRRM elects to introduce the concept of royal decoy with her cousin Rosamund. So we know that Rosamund was selected again by Lannister loyalists to serve in the security plan to Dorne for the false Baratheon Princess Myrcella. Might anyone else we met have been deemed to deserve a royal decoy too? Perhaps by Targaryen loyalists in their hour of utter despair as the tide inevitably turned against the Royal Targaryen household at Dragonstone during the last months of the War of the Usurper?

Well you might ask yourself . . . where might they secretly acquire a Targaryen royal decoy for the newly crowned boy king of 8.5 years of age ~ King Viserys III? His mother Queen Rhaella who served as Princess of Dragonstone from the time she was married off to her brother at 13 years old would surely be familiar with the residents of Dragonstone village . . . some of whom surely served as domestic staff in the royal castle.

GRRM wanted us to know that dragonseeds often bear the Valyrian blood traits of: purple eyes, platinum hair and aquiline nose which are referenced on page 374 in “Fire & Blood” in describing Ser Laenor Velaryon as these three traits bespoke his Valyrian blood it was noted by Grand ArchMaester Gyldane.

We have been told that Ser Laenor Velaryon was the most objectively attractive male on either side of his Targaryen - Velaryon family and that his mother was Princess Rhaenys Targaryen (the Queen who never was). Do you know who else GRRM has purposely introduced as possessing that same trio of Valyrian blood traits of: aquiline nose, platinum hair and purple eyes? Ser Gerold Dayne the Darkstar!! One guess for who I believe his mysterious mother might be?!?

Princess Arianne Martell says about Ser Gerold that he is easily the most objectively attractive man in Dorne and that their children together would be as beautiful as the dragonlords. Her father, Prince Doran Martell says he is the most dangerous man in Dorne . . . despite the fact that he apparently has no nuclear family history whatsoever . . . no mother . . . no father . . . no sisters or brothers . . . not one grandparent out of four even to bolster his strength at arms with influence or treasure.

I've said so much already but there is sooo much more and thus let me stop for now with this preface. GRRM has explicitly asserted that the aSoI&F faithful should not allow themselves to get caught up in chronological accuracy . . . because what happens in a day for one character may take a fortnight for another but the chapter length is identical. He has for whatever reason elected to grant Ser Gerold Dayne a birth range of 270 AC to 274 AC rather than an exact birthday/birthyear as EVERYONE else. I'm not trying to hear that the Darkstar is too old to be the false identity of King Viserys III because no one but GRRM knows how young he is exactly (25 and 5/8ths?? 27 years old? 24 and 1/4th??).

The Darkstar has all the personality traits of the exalted asshole that I can see King Viserys III growing up to be despite his years of training to master his false identity. With a network of nobles loyal via personal or family history to her Grace Queen Rhaella . . . Ser Arthur Dayne, Prince Doran Martell, Ser Willem Darry, and even Prince Oberyn Martell . . . I'm here to tell you . . . I can see the disparate pieces of a secret security plan to get the baby brother of the Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen from Dragonstone to Starfall by boat where he was received by Targaryen loyalists from House Dayne at the behest of Ser Arthur who then whisked the young Viserys III off secretly to be sheltered at the house with a big red door and lemon tree at the castle High Hermitage where like Prince Tommen (a false Baratheon Prince) he was stationed as squire with artificially dyed hair in a midnight black streak on his silvery white head. The Dragonstone decoy theory has been cultivated over time and is bolstered by Preston Jacobs on YouTube in “Daenerys and her page of lies” though we disagree as to which of the Targaryen exiles is the Dragonstone village decoy it is still compelling commentary:

 

 

All the misinformation that GRRM elects to introduce for the audience in this Daenerys chapter comes from a suspect source . . . fViserys who doesn't really know anything accurately (or how to speak High Valyrian for that matter) as as he was merely drilled over the years in Targaryen factoids, asertions, rumors & gossip by the #1 Targaryen fanboy ~ Ser Willem Darry.

 

I welcome all criticism in good faith and with grace as a longstanding fan of the series who is just holding on to the flickering flame of false hope that I will be able to buy TWOW this winter :)

I liked reading this theory since it was new to me. however, it's not a possibility in my opinion :

first of all , the Viserys we see at aGoT has all the memories  that real Viserys should have of his parents , brother , courtiers , etc. moreover , his obsession with Iron Throne doesn't seem to be something that a swapped up 8 yr old kid would project on himself. 

 then , unlike a lot of characters with doubtful parentage we have Viserys's physical comparison with his brother Rhaegar right on page: 

 " Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?" "

their similarity is so much that Daenerys takes a man she has never seen before for her only family member she had. this similarity simply cannot be between two guys with some same heritage , they must have the same parents to be so alike .  

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On 5/22/2021 at 1:08 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

He would be bangin Daenerys by now.

Not a chance Drogo would allow this if he was alive, if he was dead Viserys would likely have gotten killed in the aftermath. 

 

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On 4/18/2022 at 3:19 PM, Young Herschel said:

If I may insert my (f)Viserys theory in here ~ “This is one of the many reasons why I’ve long argued for (Viserys III as the true identity of Gerold Dayne) legitimacy, in addition to all the other stuff: The secrecy makes more sense if (Darkstar is the genuine & authentic Viserys III) is legitimate, because that legitimacy is what makes him actually dangerous.”

Time to update the Targaryen Scorecard! 

Adding Gerold Dayne is a Targaryen . . . check.

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27 minutes ago, Groo said:

Time to update the Targaryen Scorecard! 

Adding Gerold Dayne is a Targaryen . . . check.

He's of the night. Clear foreshadowing to the black of the Targaryen banner. How did we miss this?!

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Viserys was already the king of Westeros.  Daenerys would have supported his kingship because after all is said and done, she loved her brother.  He loved her too.  Brothers and sisters fight and it gets ugly sometimes.  But despite all of that, both of the Targaryens were dutiful.  Viserys was the king and he felt it was their duty to take the throne back from Robert for the good of the people.  And he wasn't wrong about that.  Just look what Westeros has become under the Baratheons and their Stark friends.  Daenerys will have the dragons and she will be the power behind her Brother-King.  The dragons give her leverage to control her brother's temper. 

There is belief out there though that the death of King Viserys the Third was the payment for the dragons.  It is possible we would have gotten a completely different story. 

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On 5/22/2021 at 3:00 PM, Lord Lannister said:

If Viserys had stayed in Pentos as counseled(most feasible way for him to avoid being crowned prematurely) he'd likely be with the Golden Company and Young Griff would never be heard from unless some other ill fate met with Viserys.

My impression is definitely that YG was plan A and Viserys maybe a distant B. 

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