Interesting Tidbits

[The Bard of Banefort]

What are some interesting tidbits you noticed when reading the books that don’t come up very often? Here are some I’ve found:

- Rhaena Targaryen is one of the ghosts of Harrenhal. She died and was cremated there.

- It’s very likely that the Lannisters are, distantly, Ironborn. House Lannister frequently married Ironborn lords prior to the Conquest.

- Going by the pattern of which houses fought for the Black Dragon (usually the second-most powerful houses in each region), there is a good chance that the Boltons were Blackfyre supporters.

- Viserys II’s wife left him when he was still a teenager. 

- Jaehaerys I outlived 11 of his 13 children. 

- The current Greyjoys descend from a salt son, and younger sons in general, since the older children usually die young in their family.

[James Steller]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

- Going by the pattern of which houses fought for the Black Dragon (usually the second-most powerful houses in each region), there is a good chance that the Boltons were Blackfyre supporters.

 

Whether that's true or not, I always did wonder how involved the North was in the Blackfyre Rebellion. None of their houses are listed as being directly involved, and most of the fighting took place south of the Neck. I always figured the Northerners were smart enough to sit this one out, but you may be right.

And technically, House Manderly is the second strongest House in the North rather than House Bolton. Just look at how the Targaryens negotiated with House Manderly first during the Dance of the Dragons. They've got the North's only city, and they have some of the best land as well. The idea of them turning Blackfyre against House Stark is unlikely, though, they're not a disloyal house.

[The Bard of Banefort]

11 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Whether that's true or not, I always did wonder how involved the North was in the Blackfyre Rebellion. None of their houses are listed as being directly involved, and most of the fighting took place south of the Neck. I always figured the Northerners were smart enough to sit this one out, but you may be right.

And technically, House Manderly is the second strongest House in the North rather than House Bolton. Just look at how the Targaryens negotiated with House Manderly first during the Dance of the Dragons. They've got the North's only city, and they have some of the best land as well. The idea of them turning Blackfyre against House Stark is unlikely, though, they're not a disloyal house.

I guess I meant the biggest rival houses: Reyne, Frey, Yronwood, etc. 

[James Steller]

2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I guess I meant the biggest rival houses: Reyne, Frey, Yronwood, etc. 

Forgive my nitpicking, I tend to do that a lot, especially on a site like this.

[The Hoare]

40 minutes ago, James Steller said:

The idea of them turning Blackfyre against House Stark is unlikely, though, they're not a disloyal house.

The current Manderlys are clearly very loyal, but who knows what the Manderly lord was thinking a century ago?

Saying that, I believe that they remained Stark supporters at least for convenience

[Canon Claude]

55 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

The current Manderlys are clearly very loyal, but who knows what the Manderly lord was thinking a century ago?

Saying that, I believe that they remained Stark supporters at least for convenience

If the Manderlys ever turned traitor, they’d be utterly screwed. The only reason they’re in the North is because of the generosity of the Starks. But then again, maybe they see how the Bolton still exist and they figure they’ll just get a slap on the wrist too.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What are some interesting tidbits you noticed when reading the books that don’t come up very often? Here are some I’ve found:

- Rhaena Targaryen is one of the ghosts of Harrenhal. She died and was cremated there.

It may also be that the Widows Tower of Harrenhal is actually named after her. There would be no reason to name that tower in this manner after Harren's death, although I guess there is a chance that Quenton Qoherys' Tully wife ended up living there after Gargon the Guest took over, and the name developed after that.

I very much like the fact that Harrenhal is basically a third Targaryen castle with first Rhaena and then later Alys Rivers and her son ruling it, followed by the Lothstons who seem to be a clandestine Targaryen cadet branch.

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

- Going by the pattern of which houses fought for the Black Dragon (usually the second-most powerful houses in each region), there is a good chance that the Boltons were Blackfyre supporters.

If the Blackfyre Rebellion is going to be play a role in the North one certainly could see that. Although I'd expect that this would be some kind of proxy war with the Lord of the Dreadfort declaring for Daemon Blackfyre to have a pretext to attack Winterfell rather than the Boltons actually sending men to Daemon. Something similar may have happened with the Yronwoods in Dorne during the Blackfyre Rebellions.

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

- Viserys II’s wife left him when he was still a teenager.

I guess it is going to turn out that she didn't so much leave him but KL, and that Viserys had the chance to go with her but refused.

[The Bard of Banefort]

The Ironborn are also a wildcard. On the one hand, they broke out into civil war after the Red Kraken’s death, with different factions competing for power. On the other hand, they stayed loyal to House Greyjoy even after Balon’s rebellion, which is saying a lot. 
 

We know that the Greyjoys eventually betray Bittersteel, in either the third or fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. My head canon  is that Torwyn used that as leverage to win back whatever privileges the Ironborn lost after Dagon was defeated. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Another one: Fireball may have killed three of Elaena Targaryen's grandchildren.

Quote

"Later on, Fireball killed Lord Lefford at the gates of Lannisport and sent the Grey Lion running back to hide inside the Rock. At the crossing of the Mandel, he cut down the sons of Lady Penrose one by one. They say he spared the life of the youngest one as a kindness to his mother."

Elaena didn't have four sons with her Penrose husband, but seeing as she was older than Daeron II, there's a good chance these may have been her grandsons. 

Also, on a side-note, I always thought that Fireball was one of the all-time assholes of ASOIAF. You have to be a real POS to make your wife join the silent sisters so that you can live out your boyhood fantasy. There's some poetic justice is him, just like Criston Cole, getting a completely unremarkable death. 

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 - The current Greyjoys descend from a salt son, and younger sons in general, since the older children usually die young in their family.

Not sure if that's how it goes ... perhaps the salt son died and one of Dalton's brothers or uncles continued the line. We also don't know yet if Borros and his son Royce continued House Baratheon or whether a brother of Borros or even one of Rogar's brothers continued the line. Which would be possible if little Royce died without issue.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Another one: Fireball may have killed three of Elaena Targaryen's grandchildren.

Elaena didn't have four sons with her Penrose husband, but seeing as she was older than Daeron II, there's a good chance these may have been her grandsons. 

Oh, that really doesn't work out. It was Daeron II who married Elaena to Ronnel Penrose which means this happened in or after 184 AC at the earliest. And Daeron II is only three years younger than Elaena anyway.

We have been long wondering Lady Penrose is and whose sons Fireball cut down there. The best way to make sense of this we came up with is if we view (1) Ronnel Penrose as the Lord of Parchments and (2) 'Lady Penrose' as the wife of a Lord of Parchments and not the wife of just some man from House Penrose, then my take is that Ronnel had a wife before Elaena - and with that wife he had Aelinor Penrose, the future queen of Aerys I, and an elder son who succeeded him as Lord of Parchments at some time before the Blackfyre Rebellion. This son and his wife would have been the Lord and the Lady Penrose whose sons Fireball slew.

If we have Ronnel as a son of the second Laena Velaryon then he could have been born around 150 AC, perhaps even as early as the late 140s. His eldest son could then be born in the mid-160s up to 170 AC, meaning that the son could have a bunch of sons himself including a youngster who was, perhaps, only a squire in 196 AC when he faced Fireball.

In an scenario were we combine everything.

Elaena was likely no longer Lady Penrose in 196 AC but rather Lady Manwoody.

[Eltharion21]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Another one: Fireball may have killed three of Elaena Targaryen's grandchildren.

Elaena didn't have four sons with her Penrose husband, but seeing as she was older than Daeron II, there's a good chance these may have been her grandsons. 

Also, on a side-note, I always thought that Fireball was one of the all-time assholes of ASOIAF. You have to be a real POS to make your wife join the silent sisters so that you can live out your boyhood fantasy. There's some poetic justice is him, just like Criston Cole, getting a completely unremarkable death. 

Actually death of Ser Criston Cole is quite exquisite - Ser Pate of Longleaf says : 

Quote

I'll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker. There's tens o' thousands dead on your account.

Yet in real world histories there are epic songs that describe quite similar deaths of a renowned warrior.

Like song "The Death of Father Milo Jovovich" ( not Mila Jovovich) written later about death of Montenegrin priest and warlord who fought against the Ottoman Empire in 1877.

You have argument between warrior and his lord, him going alone and calling his enemies commanders to a duel, being killed in ambush with ranged weaponry, his head being cut off and mounted on a pike, even there is a raven gloating over severed head - eerily similar to Ser Cole's death.

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/smrt-popa-mila-jovovića-смрт-попа-мила-јововића-death-father-milo-jov.html#footnote1_n3ww041

 

Quote

 

Death, death of Father Milo, Father Milo Jovović

Death of Father Milo, Father Milo Jovović

Death of Father Milo, Father Milo Jovović

 

In the days when Nikšić

Was attacked by the Montenegrins

When the time had come for it

To be no longer Turkish

 

In the Montenegrin camp

Near the Leković Tower

A slander was delivered to the Prince

Against Father Milo Jovović

 

And the Prince summoned Milo

In the presence of all the Dukes

And said to him, "Father Milo,

You're neither fish nor fowl

 

When Father Milo heard this

His hand flew to his sword

And the two eyes, like arrows

Flashed on the hajduk's face

 

The Dukes were alarmed

By the look of the mountain wolf

Thinking that he might draw

His weapon on the ruler of Montenegro

 

As if a sharp blade

Had cut his manly heart in two

He shouted, "My Lord,

God be with you, what are you saying?"

 

So enraged he left

The Lord and the Dukes

And went off to his silky tent

With heavy thoughts in his mind

 

In his rage he grabbed his gusle

The thin strings rang out

Milo cried out like a falcon

And swore on his mother Ćetna

 

That he would go to the city of Nikšić

Alone, without any help, that same day

And challenge to a duel

The renowned Captain Mušović

 

He threw down his gusle and mounted his black horse

Crossed the river Zeta

And on his ferocious stallion

Rode across the fields to the city

 

The stallion flew down Rastoci

As if carried on wings

But the Turkish guards on the city walls

Spotted Father Milo

 

Father Milo is getting ever closer

To the Turks and their trenches

Driving to exhaustion

His fierce black stallion

 

As it becomes him

He's choosing Turkish families

Attacking the best defended trenches

And the city's worst scoundrels

 

So that if he is to die

He would be killed by a hero

By the renowned and esteemed

Descendants of Idris

 

The Turkish guard stopped him

At the gates of Nikšić

He showed himself and ordered them

"Bring me Mušović!"

 

When the Turks heard this

They ran for the Captain

And a little later Mušović himself

Came to the city gates

 

And when he saw Father Milo

On his fierce black stallion

His was delighted

By his unexpected arrival

 

"What brings you this morning, Jovović?"

He said in a delighted voice

"Did you run away from the Montenegrin Prince

to seek refuge in my city?

 

"We'll accept you with open arms

We'll forgive everything you've done

Your life, harambasha,

Is safe with us."

 

But Milo shouted: "That's enough!

Stop being needlessly foolish!

I have come, o Captain

To challenge you to a duel!

 

"So get ready and come out,

and choose a place for the duel!"

These words like lighting

Struck the captain

 

His face grew pale before the hajduk

From the heroic Markovina10

Because he knew that it was easy

To die by Milo's sword

 

He dared not accept the duel

Being scared for his life

And he forgot

The fame and history of his house

 

So instead, in his fear and cowardice

He signalled the guards on the tower

A salvo rang out from the hill

And the priest fell dead to the ground

 

The black stallion bolted and ran

Back across the Zeta river

And upon Milo, with their swords

The Turks descended from the hill

 

They're bustling to be the first

To use their sword on the hero

Whose name is known

Even to Emperor Hamid  in Istanbul

 

The dead priest was first reached

By Hasan Ferizović

The sword flashed, and the head fell

Into a puddle of blood

 

On the tallest city tower

On top of Mušović's headquarters

The Turks displayed the head

Of Father Milo Jovović

 

From the sharp oaken stake

Milo is looking down

On the Turks jeering at him

And their meriment in the city

 

A raven, the black bird

Was suddenly delighted

When he saw the bloody head

And now he's flying over the city

 

He's approaching the tower from above

To land on the city walls

And, as is his old custom,

To desecrate the manly head

 

And secretly, from the harem

The women are peering through the windows

To see the famous head

Of the Serb priest on top of the tower

 

Death of Father Milo, Father Milo Jovović

Death of Father Milo, Father Milo Jovović

Death of Father Milo, Father Milo Jovović

Death of Father Milo, Father Milo Jovović

 

 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure if that's how it goes ... perhaps the salt son died and one of Dalton's brothers or uncles continued the line. 

Fire and Blood says that Dalton only left two salt sons, and that his sisters seized the oldest and fought to put him on the Seastone Chair. Veron isn’t mentioned, which would imply that he was already dead by then. One of the sisters lived (would be nice if George gave her a name, but alas) and Pyke’s army was able to deflect the Lannister invaders, so there’s no real reason to doubt that the salt son ruled after his father. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 5/26/2021 at 9:47 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

- Going by the pattern of which houses fought for the Black Dragon (usually the second-most powerful houses in each region), there is a good chance that the Boltons were Blackfyre supporters.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if there were more than a token appearance by Northerners during any of the blackfyre rebellions. They'd have had to march 1000 miles before they even fought anyone, and they didn't have any stake in the game. No royal marriages, not attacked, and had more shit going on at home -- Skagosi rebellion, Dagon Greyjoy, Wildling invasion all happened during Daeron II's reign or during the latter Blackfyre rebellions.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I very much like the fact that Harrenhal is basically a third Targaryen castle with first Rhaena and then later Alys Rivers and her son ruling it, followed by the Lothstons who seem to be a clandestine Targaryen cadet branch.

What would make the Lothstons a cadet branch of the Targs? They aren't married into the family nor are they of Valyrian stock.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If the Blackfyre Rebellion is going to be play a role in the North one certainly could see that. Although I'd expect that this would be some kind of proxy war with the Lord of the Dreadfort declaring for Daemon Blackfyre to have a pretext to attack Winterfell rather than the Boltons actually sending men to Daemon. Something similar may have happened with the Yronwoods in Dorne during the Blackfyre Rebellions.

That would make sense. The North, particularly the Starks, had a somewhat rough go of it during that time.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Fire and Blood says that Dalton only left two salt sons, and that his sisters seized the oldest and fought to put him on the Seastone Chair. Veron isn’t mentioned, which would imply that he was already dead by then. One of the sisters lived (would be nice if George gave her a name, but alas) and Pyke’s army was able to deflect the Lannister invaders, so there’s no real reason to doubt that the salt son ruled after his father. 

Oh, I know that, I just wanted to point out that the boy may not have lived long enough to breed for other reasons. The same with Royce Baratheon.

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

What would make the Lothstons a cadet branch of the Targs? They aren't married into the family nor are they of Valyrian stock.

Lucas Lothston married Falena Stokeworth, Aegon IV's first mistress (and already there as a girl in FaB), and it is said Aegon continued to visit the castle in the years after the marriage, indicating that Lord Lucas's eldest son and heir (and perhaps other children as well) may have been fathered by Aegon.

[Moiraine Sedai]

I doubt the Boltons would care which family sat at the throne. They would support the family supported by the Starks of the time. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I doubt the Boltons would care which family sat at the throne. They would support the family supported by the Starks of the time. 

If they did support the Blackfyres, it would be for the same reason as Roose supporting the Lannisters: to try to usurp the Starks. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

On 5/26/2021 at 4:01 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

If the Blackfyre Rebellion is going to be play a role in the North one certainly could see that. Although I'd expect that this would be some kind of proxy war with the Lord of the Dreadfort declaring for Daemon Blackfyre to have a pretext to attack Winterfell rather than the Boltons actually sending men to Daemon. Something similar may have happened with the Yronwoods in Dorne during the Blackfyre Rebellions.

 

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That would make sense. The North, particularly the Starks, had a somewhat rough go of it during that time.

No, it wouldn't make sense for House Bolton to openly betray the Starks, because then the Starks are even bigger idiots than ever for letting the Boltons continue to exist. It's one thing if all their past fighting was centuries old, but quite another if just a few generations back, they openly tried to bring down House Stark. 

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

No, it wouldn't make sense for House Bolton to openly betray the Starks, because then the Starks are even bigger idiots than ever for letting the Boltons continue to exist. It's one thing if all their past fighting was centuries old, but quite another if just a few generations back, they openly tried to bring down House Stark. 

Oh, well, smart folks would just raise an army, declare for Daemon Blackfyre, and then force the Starks to march against the Boltons. Eradicating as powerful a house as the Boltons isn't something the Starks could easily do. The Dreadfort isn't a crumbling old castle or a mine, after all.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Since the Bolton question is gaining traction, I decided to create a new thread to discuss it:

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, well, smart folks would just raise an army, declare for Daemon Blackfyre, and then force the Starks to march against the Boltons. Eradicating as powerful a house as the Boltons isn't something the Starks could easily do. The Dreadfort isn't a crumbling old castle or a mine, after all.

I'm pretty sure that if the Starks raised their bannermen against House Bolton, then they would eventually be defeated. House Manderly alone has more troops than House Bolton, with way more financial resources. Now add the Umbers, Karstarks, Glovers, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Hornwoods, Dustins, Ryswells, Flints, mountain clans, Mormonts, etc... 

And don't tell me that the Dreadfort is impregnable. Every 'impregnable' castle in the story can be taken, including Winterfell.