Megorova Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 In ASOIAF my favorite major plotline is the one about dragonseeds. In my opinion, there’s something mysterious about them, something that makes them interesting even without their dragons. Unusually colored eyes, silver-gold hair, elfin beauty, immunity to diseases, ability to foresee the future thru dragon-dreams; there’s something unnatural in all that, even something alien. Though if my guess about the origin of the Valyrians is correct, then they are the most Human out of all species that inhabit Planetos. Thus, let’s begin from the Beginning. The Origin of the Dragons I don’t want to overload OP with quotes, thus I suggest you to read in TWOIAF chapters Yi Ti (about the founder of the Great Empire of the Dawn) and The Rise of Valyria (Barth’s Unnatural History). There are three legends about the origin of the dragons - the second moon, Asshai, and Valyria. I think that all three of them are truthful, though they happened in different time periods. According to George Martin - “There were dragons all over, once.” Personally, I think that the ancient dragons, those that were living all over the world, were brought to Planetos by a giant space ship - the Ark, Haviland Tuf’s seedship. Tuf is the main character in GRRM’s sci-fi series “Tuf Voyaging”. Seems that the arrival of the dragons to Planetos was a result of an accident - they broke out of the Ark (that second moon that cracked like an egg) and escaped to the surface of the planet that the spaceship was passing by. As result of that incident the ship got broken, and thus Tuf had to remain at Planetos, while the ship was rebuilding itself. He descended on the planet and pretended that he’s a God (he did the same thing in “Call him Moses” novel). As the God-on-Earth he founded the Great Empire of the Dawn and ruled over those people for ten thousand years (the Ark modified his DNA and thus Tuf and his descendants had unnaturally long lifespan), and then returned to his ship - literally “ascended to the stars”. Azor Ahai & The Fiery Hand Based on the legend about the forging of Lightbringer (ACOK, Davos I), it seems that Azor Ahai was a Red Priest of R’hllor and that he resided at Asshai. I have several additional ideas concerning Azor: could be that his mother was the Amethyst Empress, and thus he was partially alien (one of Tuf’s descendants); a Red Priest is attended by five tattooed servants, like Moqorro in ADWD, so could be that the Fiery Hand was created as a parallel to Azor Ahai and his five wives - Nissa Nissa and four others; possibly he had forty-four sons, same as Hugor of the Hill. Also, could be that the Seven Gods and the wife that they had brought for Hugor were aliens, and that the Asshai’s Shadow is a spaceship. After the First Long Night ended Azor’s family migrated from Asshai (“Yet the Great Empire of the Dawn was not reborn, for the restored world was a broken place where every tribe of men went its own way, fearful of all the others, and war and lust and murder endured, even to our present day.”). The forty sons of Azor’s first wife (the “Thumb”) settled at Valyria, and after aliens brought them genetically modified dragon eggs, they became founders of the Forty Dragonlord Families. Quote In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts - all impossibly ancient - claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals. - TWOIAF. The son of Azor’s second wife (the “Forefinger”) was his family’s scout and a pioneer. He was the first of Azor’s children who settled at Westeros and his House’s words - “We Light the Way”. After he migrated to Westeros, he built there a black stone fortress at Battle Isle, founded Oldtown and created there a trading post, to which came his relatives from Valyria and other traders from Old Ghis and the Summer Isles. I’m not so sure about the third wife, though could be that her son had founded House Corbray. There are three ravens with three hearts on the family sigil of Corbrays. Maybe this sigil represents that their founder’s mother was the third wife/third heart of Azor Ahai. And there are other clues - Heart’s Home, the Fingers, Snakewood, Lady Forlorn. Azor gave Lightbringer to the son of his fourth wife (the “Ringfinger”) - Nissa Nissa, who then founded House Dayne and build Starfall. You can read more about this topic here - Swan Song part 13/16. The prince that was promised The last son, born by the “Littlefinger” wife, founded House Swann. Seems that the fifth wife was a sorceress and she passed her knowledge and her abilities to her descendants. If my theory concerning the identity of Azor Ahai is correct, then the Bloodstone Emperor was his maternal uncle. Quote When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. - TWOIAF, Yi Ti. In ancient times there used to be a custom according to which the brother of a deceased man was obliged to marry his brother's widow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage Could be that after the First Long Night ended and Azor Ahai had defeated the Bloodstone Emperor, afterwards he had to marry his uncle's widow - the tiger-woman - who became his fifth wife and Nissa Nissa's replacement. Maybe this tiger-woman was not something like a specimen of a different species, instead she was merely a cat-skinchanger. Same as her descendants - Johanna, Larra and Shiera. You can read more about them here: Swan Song part 2/16. Johanna Swann - the black swan of a dark horse? Swan Song part 3/16. Larra Rogare - a chameleon and a cat-woman Swan Song part 4/16. Shiera Seastar - a cat, a shadow, and a lying crow Patterns & Missing Pieces On the family tree of House Stark, there are several missing pieces, thus I filled in those gaps by following various patterns that were used by GRRM in his books. In my opinion four daughters of Cregan Stark and Alysanne Blackwood married with this people: Sarra with a member of House Royce and their daughter was Lorra Royce (wife of Beron Stark); Alys married with a Karstark and their daughter was Alys Karstark (wife of Brandon Stark); Raya married with a Flint and their son was the father of Arya Flint (wife of Rodrik Stark); Mariah married with a Blackwood and their daughter was Melissa Blackwood. I think that Cregan Stark fought in a trial-by-combat against Aemon the Dragonknight because of Melissa Blackwood, who was Cregan’s granddaughter. Cregan wanted King Aegon to end his relationship with Melissa and thus he challenged him, though because the Dragonknight was the King’s sworn shield, he had to answer that challenge instead of Aegon. Cregan won and thus Aegon broke up with Melissa. One of Melissa’s daughters, Mya Rivers, married with a Blackwood and their daughters were Melantha (wife of Willam Stark) and Betha (wife of Aegon V Targaryen). My conclusion is that the Starks, beginning from Jocelyn and Edwyle (father of Rickard Stark), were partially Targaryens. Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna and Benjen were Aegon the Unworthy’s 3-times-great-grandchildren, or 1/32 dragonseeds. This could seem like not much, though Brown Ben Plumm is also 1/32 dragonseed and this amount of dragon-genes is enough for Dany’s dragons to recognize him as their kin. The Walking Dead If you have read my thread Swan Song part 1/16. The missing pieces & PTSD, then you know that GRRM in his books is using certain patterns and among them - Targaryens preferred to marry with other dragonseeds. Thus, if there is no sister available for marriage, then the cousin is the next best option. In my opinion, the Prince of Dorne, who was the father of Myriah and Maron Martell, was a son of Drazenko Rogare and Aliandra Martell. If this assumption is correct, then Daeron II and his Martell-wife, Daenerys and her Martell-husband were second cousins once removed (thru Rogare-line). Also could be that not only Daeron married with a cousin, seems that all four of his children did the same. It is known that Aerys I and his wife, Aelinor Penrose, were cousins, though it wasn’t specified in the books what kind of cousins were they. Elaena Targaryen, Aegon IV’s first cousin, married with Ronnel Penrose and had with him four children (one son, Robin, and three daughters). Based on the patterns in the family tree of Targaryens seems that Aelinor Penrose was Robin Penrose’s daughter, which means that she was her husband’s third cousin. If we will apply the same pattern to Aerys’ three brothers, then it’s likely that they also married with their third cousins. Rhaena Targaryen, half-sister of Viserys II, married with Garmund Hightower and had with him six daughters (they were Aegon the Unworthy's first cousins). Three of those girls possibly married with members of House Dondarrion, Arryn and Dayne. So could be that the three wives of Targaryen Princes (Jena Dondarrion - wife of Baelor, Alys Arryn - wife of Rhaegel, Dyanna Dayne - wife of Maekar I) were Rhaena’s great-granddaughters. In this case those three women were third cousins of their Targaryen-husbands. Jena and Dyanna married with a Targaryen Princes, though their siblings (Princess Rhaena’s other great-grandchildren) continued the line of House Dondarrion and House Dayne. In ASOIAF there are three characters that died but had not become White Walkers, nor remained as Plain Dead - Benjen Stark, Beric Dondarrion, and Catelyn Tully. The common factor between the three of them is that all of them were dragonseeds - Benjen thru Melantha Blackwood (Aegon IV’s granddaughter); Beric thru one of Rhaena Targaryen’s grandchildren (Aegon’s first cousin once removed); Catelyn Tully thru the founder of House Whent (Aegon IV’s secret son, who also was his grandson, Swan Song part 7/16. The Bastard of Harrenhal). GRRM said that Coldhands is not Benjen Stark. That’s because Benjen Stark died, and thus his Undead body is not Benjen, same as Lady Stoneheart is not Catelyn. These characters - Coldhands (ex-Benjen Stark), the Lord who smelled of death (ex-Beric Dondarrion), and Lady Stoneheart (ex-Catelyn Tully) were carriers of dragon-blood, and when fire-magic was applied to their dead bodies they became Fire Wights. That’s the original purpose of the ritual The Kiss of Life. Could be that in the past, all Red Priests used to be dragonseeds (carriers of alien DNA), and thus all of them, after death, were brought back to life to continue their service to R’hllor. Though Cat and Co’s dragonblood is too diluted and thus, in their cases, the ritual was only partially successful. Skinchanging Genes In my opinion, skinchanging genes are possibly distributed/transferred thru similar pattern as the red hair alleles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#Biochemistry_and_genetics Quote The genetics of red hair appear to be associated with the melanocortin-1 receptor (MC1R), which is found on chromosome 16. Red hair can originate from several changes on the MC1R-gene. If one of these changes is present on both chromosomes then the respective individual is likely to have red hair. This type of inheritance is described as an autosomal recessive. Even if both parents do not have red hair themselves, both can be carriers for the gene and have a redheaded child. Johanna Swann, Larra Rogare/Serenei of Lys, (and Shiera Seastar) were skinchangers. Their descendants - Aegon IV and Naerys, Daeron II and Daenerys, descendants of Bellegere Otherys (the First Black Pearl of Braavos) and Jeyne Lothston, and many other characters in ASOIAF and its accompanying books, were carriers of the skinchanging genes. Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully, Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen, Petyr Baelish and Lysa Tully, were recessive carriers, thus their children are skinchangers - Jon Snow; Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon; and possibly also Robert Arryn and Rhaenys Targaryen. And there are others. Furry Little Spies & Secondhand Cat I posted here four quotes, the sum of those quotes and this section’s title is self-explanatory. Quote Cats were seen coming and going from her chambers so often that men began to say they were her spies, purring at her in soft voices of all the doings of the Red Keep. - F&B, The Lysene Spring. Braavos was full of cats, and no place more than Pynto’s. - ADWD, The Blind Girl. Changing his own skin for a raven’s night-black feathers had been harder, but not as hard as he had feared, not with these ravens. “A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him, and try to bite the hand that slips the bit between his teeth,” Lord Brynden said, “but a horse that has known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden.” - ADWD, Bran III. “I know that you’re the one who has been hitting me.” Her stick flashed out, and cracked against his fingers, sending his own stick clattering to the floor. The priest winced and snatched his hand back. “And how could a blind girl know that?” I saw you. “I gave you three. I don’t need to give you four.” Maybe on the morrow she would tell him about the cat that had followed her home last night from Pynto’s, the cat that was hiding in the rafters, looking down on them. Or maybe not. If he could have secrets, so could she. Could be that that cat didn’t followed Arya from the Pynto’s tavern; instead it followed her from the temple to the tavern and then back home, because that cat is the priest’s cat and also one of his “skins”. In my opinion, that priest (Arya’s kindly man) is the current Sealord of Braavos - Ferrego Antaryon, and could be that he is a descendant of either several Otheryses, or an Otherys-girl and the Bastard of Harrenhal. And thus he is a cat-skinchanger, and those cats all over Braavos are his little spies. Winged Wolf After Prince Aegon’s birth, the maesters told Rhaegar that Elia would bear no more children (ADWD, The Griffin Reborn), though Rhaegar believed that he had to have three because “The dragon has three heads.” (ACOK, Dany IV). Thus, he decided that he should find a different woman who will bear his third child, and that woman is supposed to be a dragonseed. Rhaegar meticulously searched thru Targaryen family tree and found there the same things as I did - all those people that were partial dragonseeds. After dismissing those girls that were unsuitable, Rhaegar got stumped - he ran out of obvious candidates. Then one of Rhaegar’s friends, a Kingsguard Oswell Whent, shared with him the secret of his House’s true origin, that they are Aegon the Unworthy’s descendants. Thus Rhaegar got three new candidates: Oswell’s niece - Wynafrei Whent, Catelyn and Lysa Tully. And then Rhaegar and his companions went to the Riverlands to find more information about those girls. Though by the time they arrived to Harrenhal, Wynafrei got married with Danwell Frey, who was one of her champions at the tournament in the previous year. Then Catelyn was dismissed, because Rhaegar found out that she was in love with her fiancé and thus, most likely would have refused his proposal. Lysa was dismissed because she recently had an abortion, so it was likely that in the future she will have problems with fertility and childbirth, and Rhaegar needed a healthy breeder, not another failure like Elia. They were already at Riverlands, so Rhaegar remembered about his great-grandmother, Betha Blackwood, who died during the Summerhall’s Burning on the same day as Rhaegar was born. At the Raventree’s Hall, from the family records of Blackwoods, Rhaegar found out that Betha’s sister, Melantha, was married with Willam Stark. Then he either went to The North himself, or just sent a letter to maester Aemon (Melantha’s brother-in-law) to find out more information about Starks. Either way, eventually Rhaegar found out that his acquaintance from the previous year’s tournament at Harrenhal - Lyanna Stark (the Knight of the Laughing Tree) - is one of Aegon the Unworhty’s descendants, Rhaegar’s third cousin and 1/32 Targaryen. Thus, after Elia Martell, who was Princess Daenerys’ 2-times-great-granddaughter and 1/16 Targaryen, Lyanna was the next best option in regard to the purity of her dragonblood. That’s the reason (or at least one of the reasons) why Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna. And what had happened afterwards is a known history. R+L=J. Family Trees I can't make family trees, thus I wrote my additions in tables. If my theories are correct, then eventually we will see those additions in the official family trees that GRRM will reveal in TWOW, ADOS and F&B Volume 2. Spoiler Amongst my additions to the Targaryen family tree are following: Gaemon Palehair was Aegon II's bastard, his children were Baelor the Blessed and Princess Rhaena (2) who became a septa; I included there great-granddaughters of Rhaena (1) who was Viserys II's half-sister; Daeron II is not Aegon's son, instead he is the Dragonknight's bastard; Ambrose Butterwell and the Bastard of Harrenhal are Aegon IV's children; Duncan the Tall is a Blackfyre; Khal Drogo is a descendant of Rhaena (1), Viserys Plumm, and "Daella" Dayne (Dyanna Dayne's sister and Egg's aunt). House Targaryen Father Mother Children Baelon Targaryen Alyssa Targaryen Viserys I, Daemon Viserys I Aemma Arryn Rhaenyra Targaryen Alicent Hightower Aegon II Aegon II Essie Gaemon Palehair Daemon Targaryen Laena Velaryon Baela, Rhaena (1) Rhaenyra Targaryen Aegon III, Viserys II Lysandro Rogare Johanna Swann Larra Rogare Lord Swann House Swann Garmund Hightower Rhaena (1) Six daughters Husbands - Dondarrion, Arryn, Dayne, others Rhaena’s 6 daughters House Dondarrion, Arryn, Dayne, others Viserys II Larra Rogare Aegon IV, Aemon, Naerys Daenaera Velaryon Daeron I, Daena the Defiant, Elaena Gaemon Palehair Baelor I, Rhaena (2) Aemon Dragonknight Naerys Targaryen Daeron II Aegon IV Daenerys Targaryen Lord Butterwell’s daughter Ambrose Butterwell Bellegere Otherys Bellanora, Narha, Balerion Merry Meg Alysanne, Lily, Willow, Rosey Falena Stokeworth Jeyne Lothston Jeyne Lothston Bastard of Harenhal/founder of House Whent Barba Bracken Bittersteel Melissa Blackwood Mya, Gwenys, Bloodraven Daena the Defiant Daemon I Blackfyre Serenei of Lys/Larra Shiera Seastar Elaena Targaryen Viserys Plumm Ronnel Penrose Robin, Laena, Jocelyn, Joy Robin Penrose wife Aelinor Penrose Rhaena (1)’s grandchildren House Dondarrion, Arryn, Dayne, others Daeron II Myriah Martell Baelor, Aerys I, Rhaegel, Maekar I Rhaena’s great-granddaughters Baelor Breakspear Jena Dondarrion Valarr, Matarys Aerys I Alys Arryn Rhaegel Aelinor Penrose Aelora, Aelor, Daenora Maekar I Dyanna Dayne Aerion, Daeron, Aemon, Daella, Aegon V, Rhae Viserys Plumm “Daella” Dayne daughter Dothraki-husband Viserys Plumm’s daughter --- --- Khal Drogo Maron Martell Daenerys Targaryen children Daemon I Blackfyre Duncan the Tall In the family tree of House Stark I filled in with whom married Cregan Stark's four daughters born by his second wife Alysanne Blackwood, and how later their descendants intermarried with the descendants of Cregan's children with his other two wives; Melissa Blackwood is Cregan's granddaughter, Melantha and Betha Blackwood are Melissa's granddaughters; Old Nan is Alysanne Stark, she had twin-children with Duncan the Tall, and two more children with Franklyn Frey (I didn't included those of her descendants into this family tree); Tattered Prince is Old Nan's nephew; Jon Snow is Lyanna's son with Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. House Stark Father Mother Children Cregan Arra Norrey Rickon Alysanne Blackwood Sarra, Alys, Raya, Mariah Lynara Jonnel, Edric, Lyanna, Barthogar, Brandon Rickon Jeyne Manderly Serena, Sansa Royce-husband Sarra Lorra Royce Karstark-husband Alys Alys Karstark Flint-husband Raya children Blackwood-husband Mariah Melissa Blackwood Jonnel Sansa Edric Serena children Brandon Alys Karstark Rodwell, Beron, Arsa Beron Lorra Royce Donnor, Willam, Berena, Artos, Alysanne, Errold, Rodrik Raya’s son, Flint wife Arya Flint Aegon IV Targaryen Melissa Blackwood Mya, Gwenys, Bloodraven Blackwood-husband Mya Rivers Melantha, Betha Blackwood Willam Lyanne Glover (Old Nan’s) Brandon Melantha Blackwood Jocelyn, Edwyle Duncan the Tall Alysanne (Nan) Twins, boy&girl Franklyn Frey Son, daughter Rodrik Arya Flint Branda, Lyarra, Duncan Stark / Tattered Prince Aegon V Targaryen Betha Blackwood Duncan the Small, Jaehaerys II, Shaera, Daeron, Rhaelle Edwyle Marna Locke Rickard Rickard Lyarra Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, Benjen Rhaegar Targaryen Lyanna Stark Jon Snow Eddard Stark Catelyn Tully Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon In this table are featured known Blackfyres and also Dunk's possible descendants: House Blackfyre Father Mother Children Daemon I Blackfyre Rohanne of Tyrosh Aegon, Aemon, Daemon II, Haegon, Aenys, two sons, Calla, daughters Daenerys Targaryen Duncan the Tall Haegon wife Daemon III, sons Aenys wife children Runceford Redwyne Calla Blackfyre Olenna Redwyne-Tyrell Duncan the Tall Alysanne Stark (Nan) Twins, boy & girl Tanselle Too-Tall House Drinkwater Rohanne Webber Jenny of Oldstones Nan’s son wife Nan’s grandson Husband from Westerlands Nan’s daughter Nan’s grandchildren - son (founder of House Clegane), daughter Lyonel Selmy Aenys’ daughter Barristan Selmy, Daemon the Unnumbered Haegon’s son wife Maelys Blackfyre Founder of House Clegane wife Son (squire of Tytos Lannister) Husband from House Cafferen Nan’s granddaughter Meris Cafferen Duncan the Small Jenny of Oldstones Melisandre Maelys Blackfyre Serra, Varys Squire of Tytos Lannister wife Gregor, Sandor, daughter Selwyn Tarth Meris Cafferen Brienne Tarth Barristan Selmy Jeyne Swann / Septa Lemore fAegon After the First Long Night ended, descendants of this seven people rebuild the world - Bran Stark the Last Hero, Azor Ahai and his five wives. If my theories are correct then in ASOIAF currently there are only three characters who are carriers of the complete set of genes from those seven. 7 Azor Ahai 1st wife 40 sons Valyrian dragonlords 2nd wife Founder of House Hightower 3rd wife Founder of House Corbray 4th wife Founder of House Dayne 5th wife Founder of House Swann 6 The Last Hero, Bran Stark Arryn + Corbray-wife 3 7 House Arryn Rodrik Arryn + Daella Targaryen 1 3 7 Aemma Arryn Viserys I + Aemma Arryn 1 3 7 House Targaryen Garmund Hightower + Rhaena Targaryen 1 2 3 7 6 daughters Dayne-husband + Rhaena’s daughter 1 2 3 4 7 House Dayne (starting from Rhaena’s grandchildren) Lysandro Rogare + Johanna Swann 5 7 Larra Rogare Viserys II + Larra Rogare 1 3 5 7 Aegon IV Mariah Stark + Blackwood-husband 6 Melissa Blackwood Aegon IV + Melissa Blackwood 1 3 5 6 7 Mya, Gwenis, Bloodraven Aegon IV + Elaena Targaryen 1 3 5 7 Viserys Plumm Aegon IV + Jeyne Lothston 1 3 5 7 Founder of House Whent Naerys + Aemon Dragonknight 1 3 5 7 Daeron II Viserys Plumm + “Daella” Dayne 1 2 3 4 5 7 daughter Mya Rivers + Blackwood-husband 1 3 5 6 7 Melantha, Betha Blackwood Daeron II + Myriah Martell 1 3 5 7 Maekar I Melantha Blackwood + Willam Stark 1 3 5 6 7 Edwyle Stark Maekar I + Dyanna Dayne 1 2 3 4 5 7 Aegon V Viserys’ daughter + Dothraki-husband 1 2 3 4 5 7 children Aegon V + Betha Blackwood 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Jaehaerys II, Shaera Viserys’ grandchildren + spouses 1 2 3 4 5 7 children, Khal Bharbo Edwyle Stark + Marna Locke 1 3 5 6 7 Rickard Stark Jaehaerys II + Shaera 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Aerys II, Rhaella Khal Bharbo + wife 1 2 3 4 5 7 Khal Drogo Rickard Stark + Lyarra Stark 1 3 5 6 7 Eddard, Lyanna Aerys II + Rhaella 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys Rhaegar + Lyanna Stark 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Jon Snow Eddard Stark + Catelyn Tully 1 3 5 6 7 Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon Khal Drogo + Daenerys Targaryen 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Rhaego Jon, Dany, Rhaego. The three heads of the Dragon are also descendants of Bran the Builder, Azor Ahai, 40 dragonlord families of Valyria, and the founders of House Hightower, Corbray, Dayne and Swann. Swan Song THE END Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaya Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 thanks for posting all your work Megorova; i'm going to start a re-read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 You've done an amazing job of pulling together a lot of loose ends to present a coherent explanation of your ideas. Very interesting, with lots of nice catches: the spider nickname for Varys possibly indicating his descent from Rohanne Webber, for instance, or why GRRM would tell us that Bloodraven has two sisters unless he wanted us to fit them into the puzzle about who married whom? Some of your terrific insights were shared in earlier posts but I continue to admire your brilliant analysis of the likely role of Quentyn Ball as the guardian of the son of Daemon Blackfyre, for instance. That explains so many loose ends! I am in agreement with you on probable plot twists such as Littlefinger's hidden heritage (Blackfyre or Brightflame for sure, in my mind) but you have come up with some intriguing details about specific lines in his family tree that would explain his ties to House Corbray and his excitement about becoming the Lord of Harrenhal, for instance. Wonderful to see that tied up in a single package. When I was looking at the symbolism of butterflies, I realized that "The Bastard of Uplands" was possibly a symbolic reference to Jon Snow. I suspect GRRM uses the mysterious bastard characters in both symbolic and literal ways to give readers a trail to follow without directly revealing information that would spoil later plot twists. Your "unmasking" of the Bastard of Harrenhal sounds like one of those cases and would help to explain the widespread obsession in Westeros with control of Harrenhal. Unsurprisingly, in this complicated game of ASOIAF literary interpretation (shall we call it the Game of Tomes?) there are a few places where my predictions or interpretations depart from yours. When you share your idea that Shiera Seastar could have been present at the birth of Dany's baby (part 11 of your posts), you cite this as evidence about the presence of Shiera: On 5/22/2021 at 2:27 PM, Megorova said: ... during Rhaego’s birth in that tent were also present both of MMD’s ex-teachers - Shiera Seastar and maester Marwyn. Now let’s go thru what was what - the Dream VS [Reality]. Quote Wings shadowed her fever dreams. [Shiera Seastar is the shadowbinder Quaithe and also she is a dragonseed. Thus, in her dreams Dany saw Shiera as wings and shadows.] I don't see shadows or wings as strongly or uniquely associated with Shiera, so shadowy wings in Dany's dream would not serve as a sign for me that Shiera was a presence in the tent. ASOIAF characters often refer to "dark wings, dark words," so we could infer that the shadowy wings symbolize the arrival of bad news. If GRRM wanted to signal that Shiera was hovering or even manifested in a new guise, the symbols I would look for would be cloth of silver and the colors of her distinctive blue/green eyes and her necklace of sapphires and emeralds. Or a person who shares all or part of her name. Melisandre is associated with shadows: even though she celebrates light and warns against the terrors of the night, her light is usually created with fire and Stannis tells us that it casts shadows. The so-called shadow babies (I would call them shadow weapons) are also associated with Melisandre. I don't think there is a strong association between Shiera and Melisandre, although they both seem to practice dark magic. Now I would love to have a thread to explore the connections and contradictions between Danelle Lothston and Shiera Seastar on the one hand, and Melisandre and Catelyn Tully on the other hand. My examination of the symbolism tells me that Catelyn is to rainbows as Melisandre is to Shadows. I suspect GRRM has set up a similar compare/contrast situation with Danelle and Shiera. (And possibly also with the swords Blackfyre and Dark Sister.) This discussion might also include Missy Blackwood / Barbra Bracken and even Catelyn's transformation from Catelyn to Lady Stoneheart. But I digress. I also don't share your suspicion that Dany's baby Rhaego is literally alive and hidden from her. In my "only death can pay for life" calculations, Dany's brother Viserys, husband Drago and baby Rhaego are the three lives that were sacrificed to make possible the birth of her dragons. Aside from the names of the dragons, one of the clues for me is the word "pyromancer." This word usually refers to magical wizards who have been forced out of power (except to make wild fire) by the maesters. But wordplay can turn this word into "pyre romance." My thinking is that the magic that allowed the dragon eggs to hatch, finally, was the sacrifice of Dany's most beloved people - Drogo literally on the pyre, where Dany experiences a final sexual encounter with him. Aegon V may have been thinking along these lines with the fire at Summerhall and the deaths of many Targaryen family members. His dragon-hatching effort was thwarted, however, by the escape of Rhaella and Rhaegar. I realize that Mirri Maz Duur and a stallion also die in the pyre, but I think they represent other elements in the magic recipe for dragon hatching. Just before he emerges from the crypt, Bran "eats" horse meat when his direwolf, Summer, eats from the carcasses of horses that die in the burning of Winterfell. At the urging of Qhorin Halfhand, Jon Snow eats horse blood mixed with oats just before he passes beneath the waterfall and takes the tunnel through the mountain where he meets Rattleshirt and kills Qhorin. So the horse symbolism and eating of horse flesh is not unique to Dany's rebirth scene. I would compare the burning of Mirri Maz Duur to deaths of other sheep or lambs (she is one of the Lamb Men), the torture death of Lady Darklyn after the Defiance of Duskendale, and the death of the puppeteers in Qyburn's making of Ser Robert Strong. I do think Rhaego "lives on" symbolically - similar to Renly living on in symbolic ways after his death - but his life force was switched with the life force of one or more of the "stone" dragon eggs, allowing them to hatch. Other places my predictions differ from yours: I suspect the salient bloodline for Ser Barristan Selmy is as a Ser Duncan the Tall descendant. But he was a bastard who was born in King's Landing and sent out to House Selmy (or possibly House Darry) to be raised as a respectable noble child. (I suspect a similar story for Brienne.) If fAegon/Young Griff is not the real Aegon, also have a sneaking suspicion he might be Tyrion's son by Tysha: the author goes to some trouble to tie in the Pisswater Prince story to the lowborn foundling substituted for Prince Aegon. Tyrion is strongly associated with pissing and making water. My goal here wasn't to nitpick your yeoman's effort to pull together your comprehensive and thoughtful theories. In many ways, we end up with similar predictions around major plot elements, even if we arrive at them through different paths. I am grateful that you have gone to the effort to write up your ideas so we can see what it looks like when loose ends come together into a united story line. GRRM has told us this is what will happen as the books reach their conclusion and you are the first person I have seen who has tied together so many of the disparate threads into a cohesive story line. Your notion of the Johanna Swann story as a common starting point is brilliant and original. I am listening to the audiobook of Fire and Blood and the Coryanne Wylde story has so much in common with your Johanna Swann theories that I think GRRM must have intended for readers to make the connection. You are the first and only person to have recognized Johanna's story as an important clue to bloodlines and family connections, however. I applaud your skills as a sleuth. I look forward to reading your continued ideas and insights. Thank you for sharing them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Thanks for articulating my appreciation for Megorova’s posts. I wish I was up to contributing more. Have to re read with these excellent thoughts fresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 I read all of them. If you had tried to prove your point through text they would have been the best thing that happened in those forums lately. But unfortunately they are not. These posts are just a way to prove your way of thought behind your fan fictions. But nothing else no text clues, nothing. Which is a huge let down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted May 30, 2021 Author Share Posted May 30, 2021 15 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: If you had tried to prove your point through text 14 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: But nothing else no text clues, What exactly do you mean by "text clues". I did provided quotes from the books, the exact text on which my theories are based. What proves exactly do you need aside from those quotes? Give me an example. Pick one of my theories, and write what exactly do you consider there as not proven by what I wrote in that thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oldstones Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 LoL at all those tinfoil geneology. We know from FAB that Martell princess was briefly wed to Rogare and they didn't have any children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 Good grief. If you are going to criticize, at least try not to be hurtful. Megrova, you are very imaginative and creative person and you write well. You obviously have a passion for the story and for solving puzzles. I can see where you have employed three different logic fallacies. We can discuss that privately, if you wish. I will tell you about my experience with the 'corn code' many years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted May 30, 2021 Author Share Posted May 30, 2021 On 5/30/2021 at 6:41 PM, Lightoftheast said: We know from FAB that Martell princess was briefly wed to Rogare and they didn't have any children. Actually it isn't known whether they had or didn't had children. Based on the information in F&B they married in 134. "Drazenko’s ties to Sunspear and Lysandro’s to the Iron Throne made the Rogares the princes of Lys in all but name. By the end of 134 AC, some feared they might soon rule Westeros as well." Drazenko and Lysandro died no earlier than in the fourth month of 135. "During the first quarter of 135 AC, two momentous events were the occasion of great joy throughout the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. On the third day of the third moon of that year, the people of King’s Landing woke to a sight that had not been seen since the dark days of the Dance: a dragon in the skies above the city. ... Less than a fortnight later, Larra of Lys gave birth to a son, Prince Viserys’s firstborn child." They died later than Aegon IV's birth. So Drazenko and Aliandra were married for at least 3 months minimum. That's more than enough time to consume a child. If their marriage was consumated, then Aliandra could have became pregnant, even after having sex with her husband just once. And I doubt that in a span of 3+ months they had sex only once. There is absolutely no reason to think that they didn't had children. Furthermore, Drazenko Rogare being the father of the Prince of Dorne, who made a pact with Baelor the Blessed concerning the marriage between his children - Myriah and Maron Martells with Daeron and Daenerys Targaryen, is the simplest explanation why amongst Myriah's children with Daeron there were those who had Valyrian looks. Baelor Breakspear looked like his Dornish mother, though Maekar looked like a Valyrian. Which means that his mother, even though she herself had dark hair and dark eyes, besides those alleles also was a carrier of recessive alleles for silver-gold hair and violet eyes. To Baelor she passed brown hair/brown eyes alleles and to Maekar silver-gold hair/violet eyes alleles. With combination of her husband's DNA, the result was that Baelor, same as his mother, had alleles of both colorations - silver-gold hair alleles from his father/brown hair alleles from his mother and violet eyes alleles from his father/brown eyes alleles from his mother, and Maekar had silver-gold hair alleles from his father/silver gold hair alleles from his mother and violet eyes alleles from his father/violet eyes alleles from his mother. In combination brown hair/silver-gold hair and brown eyes/violet eyes, brown is dominant, while silver-gold and violet are recessive. Thus both Myriah and Baelor, even though both of them had Dornish looks with brown hair and brown eyes, nevertheless they were carriers of recessive silver-gold hair alleles and violet eyes alleles, and passed them to some of their children. Maekar's looks and Prince Valarr's (Baelor's son) blue eyes are evidences of that. In ASOIAF, concerning inheritance of looks from parents to children, GRRM applied the same rules that are present in the genetics of the real world. For Myriah Martell to have a son with Maekar's Valyrian looks, amongst her resent ancestors there was supposed to be a Valyrian from whom Myriah got those Valyrian genes that she passed to her son Maekar. That Valyrian ancestor being her paternal grandfather, Drazenko Rogare, is the simplest explanation. Unless after Drazenko's death, Aliandra Martell married again, and this time again with someone who was a Valyrian, same as her first husband. Or there's another possibility - the Prince of Dorne who bend the knee to Baelor the Blessed and agreed to marriage alliance between his children and Targaryens, was not Aliandra's son. That's if Aliandra never remarried, had no children and after her death one of her siblings (she had two - a sister named Coryanne and a brother named Qyle) became the next ruler of Dorne. In this case either Coryanne married with a Valyrian-man and the next Prince of Dorne (father of Myriah and Maron Martells) was her son, or, in case if after Aliandra's death the Dornish throne was inherited by Qyle, who either was that Prince of Dorne and thus Myriah and Maron were Aliandra's niece and nephew, not her grandchildren, or Qyle married with a Valyrian-woman and the Prince of Dorne, who was Myriah's and Maron's father, was the son of Qyle and that Valyrian woman. Don't you agree that the possibility that GRRM simply made Aliandra to have a child with her Valyrian husband, Drazenko Rogare, is the simplest and the most likely explanation of how come Maekar Targaryen had Valyrian looks, even though his mother had Dornish looks? Drazenko Rogare being that Valyrian ancestor from whom Myriah and Maekar inherited Valyrian genes is the most likely option. Also, it was said in F&B about Larra Rogare that "The gowns she wore all came from Lys, even her smallclothes; her father’s ships delivered the latest Lysene fashions to her thrice a year." That's about 134 AC. Also it was said about that year that "Across the sea, the Daughters’ War finally reached its end. Racallio Ryndoon fled south to the Basilisk Isles with his remaining supporters; Lys, Tyrosh, and Myr divided the Disputed Lands; and the Dornish took dominion over most of the Stepstones. The Myrish suffered the greatest losses in these new arrangements, whilst the Archon of Tyrosh and the Princess of Dorne gained the most. In Lys, ancient houses fell and many a highborn magister was cast down and ruined, whilst others rose up to seize the reins of power. Chief amongst these was Lysandro Rogare and his brother Drazenko, architect of the Dornish alliance. Drazenko’s ties to Sunspear and Lysandro’s to the Iron Throne made the Rogares the princes of Lys in all but name. By the end of 134 AC, some feared they might soon rule Westeros as well." The war ended in early 134. It isn't said so in the books, though it seems the most likely option. Because of this -> "By 133 AC most of Racallio's naval strength had been defeated, although he still controlled Bloodstone and some smaller islands. When it appeared that the Tyroshi would soon defeat Racallio, the Lyseni and Myrmen made peace and jointly attacked Tyrosh." "When Alyn sailed south on Lady Baela, Racallio controlled Bloodstone and the southern Stepstones, while the northern and eastern isles were controlled by Pentoshi sellswords hired by Tyrosh. Alyn sailed to Bloodstone under a parley flag but was held as a captive and guest by Racallio for more than a fortnight. Racallio eventually allowed Alyn to sail his fleet past the Stepstones in return for three ships, an alliance, and a future kiss from Alyn's wife, Lady Baela Targaryen.[1] While at Sunspear during his return from the Sunset Sea in 133 AC, Alyn Oakenfist learned from Princess Aliandra Martell that Dorne had allied with Lys and Tyrosh against Racallio.[1] Sailing to Lys, Alyn negotiated with House Rogare for the return of Prince Viserys Targaryen to Westeros in 134 AC.[1]" If Racallio had lost most of his fleet by 133, and Aliandra Martell made an aliance with the Rogares also in 133, and they sent their joined forces against Racallio, then he got defeated early in 134. He couldn't have held against them for long, because most of his fleet was already lost by 133, so with what ships was he going to fight against them in 134? He had no power to oppose them and thus he lost to them fairly soon, in early 134. And that's when Aliandra married with Drazenko. Or even before that, still in 133. So, prior to Drazenko's death (which happened no earlier than the fourth month of 135 AC), him and Aliandra were married for a year or close to it, or maybe even for more than 12 months. Thus there was plenty of time for them to have a child, or maybe even more than one. Just because it wasn't revealed thru TWOIAF or F&B, it doesn't mean that they had no children. Because just look at the Targaryen family tree in F&B - Naerys Targaryen isn't there. And you know what else also isn't there? -> the family tree of House Martell. So we don't actually know whether Aliandra and Drazenko had or didn't had children in span of their marriage, this information wasn't revealed in the books. Myriah Martell, daughter of the ruling Prince of Dorne, had Valyrian genes, that's a fact - Maekar Targaryen's looks is the evidence of that. Thus it's also a fact that amongst Myriah's ancestors there was a Valyrian. And Drazenko Rogare is a Valyrian and he was married with Aliandra Martell, and Myriah is also a Martell. Thus, the possibility that Aliandra and Drazenko had children is more likely than the possibility that they had no children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted June 3, 2021 Author Share Posted June 3, 2021 I made a mistake in this theory. Yep, I did. I kind of forgot that Egg and Betha besides Jaehaerys and Shaera also had other children that had children - Duncan the Small and Princess Rhaelle. Thus Jon, Dany and Rhaego are not the only carriers of a full set of genes from all seven legendary figures - the Last Hero, Azor Ahai and his five wives. There's also Melisandre (if she is Duncan's daughter) and Princess Rhaelle's numerous descendants - Stannis, Shireen, Gendry, Edric Storm, Mya Stone, Bella from the Peach. Unless Robert's other bastards are all dead, then those 7 (including Melisandre) are also carriers of a similar genes as the Three Heads of the Dragon, their blood is also VERY special. Though the Ghost of High Heart said that the Prince that was Promised will be born from the line of Jaehaerys and Shaera, thus it doesn't matter whether there are other people in the books, who are also carriers of the same genes as those three. Because genes alone is not enough for someone to be the Promised Prince - he/she also has to fit into other parameters that were mentioned in the prophecies. Like - being born under the bleeding star, hatching dragons, wielding Lightbringer, etc. Though the blood of those seven is very potent, in a magical sense. If Melisandre will sacrifice any of them to R'hllor, there's a possibility that this sacrifice will shift the balance between Fire and Ice, R'hllor and the Others. If Melisandre will sacrifice to R'hllor a carrier of genes of the Last Hero (and Princess Rhaelle's descendants are all partially Starks thru Betha Blackwood, one of whose ancestors possibly was Mariah Stark, daughter of Cregan Stark) it may be seen by the Others as a breaking of their Pact. The one that the Children of the Forest made with the Last Hero. He was supposed to sacrifice his blood only to the Old Gods, not to R'hllor. So if Melisandre will take what according to the Pact belong to the Old Gods, it may cause retaliations from the Others. Maybe it will even break the Pact completely, and as the result of that The Wall will lose its defending power against the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Megorova said: Though the Ghost of High Heart said that the Prince that was Promised will be born from the line of Jaehaerys and Shaera, thus it doesn't matter whether there are other people in the books, who are also carriers of the same genes as those three. Hi Megrova. I can't speak to any of the genealogy from the books since I have never spent any time studying it. It's interesting to think of the different convergences of old and magical bloodlines in the current batch of characters. I don't know if you covered it already; but it seems to be accepted that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys' offspring. I always think of them as Lannisters but there is a good chance that they are Targs. Whatd o you make of that outcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted June 3, 2021 Author Share Posted June 3, 2021 2 hours ago, LynnS said: I don't know if you covered it already; but it seems to be accepted that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys' offspring. I always think of them as Lannisters but there is a good chance that they are Targs. Whatd o you make of that outcome? No, I haven't covered that topic in the "Swan Song". Lannisters were mostly left out of it. The only connection of them to the main topic of my threads is that the Lannisters and the Blackfyres may be bloodrelated thru the Ghost of High Heart, who is possibly Rohanne Webber-Lannister (mother of Tytos (father of Tywin, Kevan, Genna, Tygett and Gerion) and Jason (father of Joanna Lannister and 7 more children)). According to the official family trees - Rohanne Webber is both maternal and paternal great-grandmother of Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion (because their parents - Tywin and Joanna - were first cousins thru their fathers - Tytos and Jason, who were Rohanne's sons). In SS-part 9 I suggested a theory that Jenny of Oldstones was Duncan the Tall's daughter born by Rohanne, and that Melisandre is Duncan the Small's daughter born by Jenny. Also, could be that besides Melisandre, Jenny also had two other children, fathered by Maelys the Monstrous - Sera and Varys Blackfyres. If that is correct, then Varys was a first cousin to Tywin, Kevan, etc. (so Varys is a kinslayer, because he killed Kevan), and he is a first cousin once removed to Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion. Aside from that one connection by Rohanne Webber thru Lannister-line, in my opinion, there is no other blood-connections between Targaryens (Blackfyres) and Lannisters. I don't think that Cersei and Jaime are King Aerys' children. I highly doubt it. Very highly doubt it. Just think about it - if they are indeed Aerys' children, then Dany is their sister. But were there any clues or hints given by GRRM that Cersei and Jaime could be Dany's half-siblings? In my opinion, in the books there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING amongst those lines. No connections between Dany and those two. Also, Tywin and Joanna married in 263 and shortly afterwards she was sent by Queen Rhaella out of Targaryen court and went to Casterly Rock, where she was staying until 272. Before that she and Aerys saw each other only in 267, and for most part of 268, when Aerys came with Rhaegar and half of his court to Casterly Rock, already after Cersei's and Jaime's birth (they were born in 266). Tywin was visiting his wife at Casterly Rock in the span between 263 and 266. He was even staying there with Joanna when she gave birth to their twins. Though Aerys from 263 to 267 was staying at King's Landing. Thus there's no way that he is the twins' father. I don't remember when exactly in a year is Cersei's birthday, either she and her brother were born in late 266 or in early 266, in which case they were conceived in 265. And we know that in 265 Aerys was busy with this: "He was ambitious during these years, and boasted about many grand plans, although he lost interest in them quickly as well. His plans, none of which would ever be carried out, included invading the Stepstones and adding them to his kingdom, building a new Wall hundred of miles north of the current one to extend his kingdom to the north after a visit from Lord Rickard Stark in 264 AC, building a city of white marble on the south bank of the Blackwater Rush after complaining of the smell of King's Landing in 265 AC, " In 265-early 266 Aerys was at King's Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 On 6/3/2021 at 7:56 PM, Megorova said: I don't think that Cersei and Jaime are King Aerys' children. I highly doubt it. Very highly doubt it. Just think about it - if they are indeed Aerys' children, then Dany is their sister. But were there any clues or hints given by GRRM that Cersei and Jaime could be Dany's half-siblings? In my opinion, in the books there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING amongst those lines. No connections between Dany and those two. Also, Tywin and Joanna married in 263 and shortly afterwards she was sent by Queen Rhaella out of Targaryen court and went to Casterly Rock, where she was staying until 272. Before that she and Aerys saw each other only in 267, and for most part of 268, when Aerys came with Rhaegar and half of his court to Casterly Rock, already after Cersei's and Jaime's birth (they were born in 266). Tywin was visiting his wife at Casterly Rock in the span between 263 and 266. He was even staying there with Joanna when she gave birth to their twins. Though Aerys from 263 to 267 was staying at King's Landing. Thus there's no way that he is the twins' father. To me - if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Simple is compelling in its own way. But the above does help me understand better, I think. Like this? - The foundation/axiom/whatever is that the truth is out there: GRRM has left answers to his mysteries in his books. (I 100% agree.) And following from that, the truth is determined from the limited facts we have, i.e the most probable outcome is actually what happened. I'm not convinced on the bolded, but who knows, it could be right. Anyway, I've not read most of the theory because I haven't done the histories and can't really judge. But I might do one day. Are you going to do an index somewhere, a link in your profile/sig, or a blog or something? I'd hate to lose sight of it, because I'm hugely impressed by the amount of research and original thought that's gone into this - thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted June 6, 2021 Author Share Posted June 6, 2021 3 hours ago, Springwatch said: Are you going to do an index somewhere, a link in your profile/sig, or a blog or something? I'd hate to lose sight of it, I added the link to the first thread into my signature. The links to the other 15 threads are in the end of the first part's Opening Post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted July 30, 2021 Share Posted July 30, 2021 On 6/6/2021 at 9:44 AM, Megorova said: I added the link to the first thread into my signature. The links to the other 15 threads are in the end of the first part's Opening Post. Whenever I try to picture what is going on inside your head, this is what I see: Synchronized Fireworks Show - 4 [FWSIM] - YouTube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted October 14, 2021 Author Share Posted October 14, 2021 New addition to the family tree of Targaryens: Rhaena Targaryen + Garmund Hightower 6 daughters + 1. Lyonel Hightower’s son, husbands from Houses - 2. Dondarrion, 3. Arryn, 4. Dayne, 5. Tyrell, 6. Tully Rhaena’s grandchildren + spouses Rhaena’s great-grandchildren Lord Hightower, Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, Dyana Dayne, Lord Tully, Lord Tyrell Aegon V Duncan, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Daeron, Rhaelle Celia Tully, Luthor Tyrell Aegon V was intending to marry two of his children - Jaehaerys and Shaera with Celia Tully and Luthor Tyrell, who were his children's distant cousins thru Rhaena Targaryen - half-sister of Egg's great-great-grandfather Viserys II Targaryen. ~~~ Princess Rhaena was born in 116 AC. She had married with Garmund Hightower no earlier than in 136. Her half-brother's (Viserys') children were born - Aegon IV in 135, Aemon in 136, Naerys in 138. At the time when was born Aegon's son Daeron II (in 153 AC), Rhaena was only 37 years old. Queen Rhaella was 38 or 39 when she gave birth to Dany. Rohanne Webber was 43 or 44 when she gave birth to her son Jason Lannister. Queen Alysanne was 43 or 44 when she gave birth to her last child - Gael. Alyssa Velaryon was 47 when she gave birth to Jocelyn Baratheon. There's 24 years of age difference between Rhaegar and Dany. The age difference between Walder Frey's oldest and youngest children is ~60 years. Thus it's likely that between Rhaena's first daughter and her sixth daughter there could have been significant age difference. For example, while Rhaena's first three daughters could have been aged close to Aegon IV, Aemon and Naerys, her last three daughters could have been closer in age to Daeron II or even younger than him. So Rhaena's grandchildren born by her last three daughters could have been approximately same age as Daeron II's children. So could be that Jenna Dondarrion, Dyana Dayne and Alys Arryn were Rhaena's granddaughters, not her great-granddaughters as I previously wrote. And thus those three women were their husbands second cousins once removed, instead of being their third cousins. With inclusion of that new information into my theory, I think that Rhaena's first three daughters married with a Hightower, Tyrell and Tully, and the last three married with a Dayne, Dondarrion and Arryn. So the new version of the family tree should be something like this: Rhaena + Garmund 1st + Hightower-husband House Hightower + spouses Quenton (and siblings) + wife Leyton (and siblings) 6 daughters 2nd + Tyrell-husband House Tyrell + spouses Leo (and siblings) + wife Luthor (and siblings)* 3rd + Tully-husband House Tully + spouses Medgar (and siblings) + wife Celia (and siblings)** 4th + Dayne-husband Dyanna (and siblings) + Maekar Egg (and siblings) + Betha Blackwood Duncan, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Daeron, Rhaelle 5th + Donadarrion-husband Jenna (and siblings) + Baelor 6th + Arryn-husband Alys (and siblings) + Rhaegel * Olenna Redwyne’s husband - Luthor Tyrell possibly was Leo Tyrell’s son, or nephew or grandson. ** Medgar Tully had at least two children - a son (born in 202 or 203 AC) and Celia Tully. Medgar’s son possibly was the father of Hoster and Brynden, so Celia Tully was their aunt. Rhaena’s daughters were first cousins of Aegon IV; if Dyanna, Jenna and Alys were Rhaena’s granddaughters, then they were Daeron II’s second cousins, and thus to their spouses - Baelor, Maekar and Rhaegel, they were second cousins once removed. Also if this version of the family tree is correct, then Quenton Higtower, Leo Tyrell and Medgar Tully were third cousins to Daeron II’s children. In this case Luthor Tyrell and Celia Tully were Egg’s fourth cousins, and thus they were fourth cousins once removed to Shaera and Jaehaerys, with whom they were betrothed. Though because amongst Targaryens there were many of those who have married while being very young, in the amount of time when in the other Houses there was only one generation, the Targaryens managed to cram into the same number of years two generations. Because of this, my version of their family tree could be one generation +- off the real version that will be later revealed by GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted October 28, 2021 Author Share Posted October 28, 2021 18 hours ago, TGR said: But it seems that I am not able to follow every point and make the connections that you make. I totally get that House Hightower and House Dayne may be proto-valyrians (influenced by the theories and discussions made in History of Westeros and The Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire podcasts) but Corbrays and Swanns I just don't get it. In TWOIAF-book there's a hint that in the ancient times the Hightowers were visited by Valyrian dragonlords. This is it: Quote How old is Oldtown, truly? Many a maester has pondered that question, but we simply do not know. The origins of the city are lost in the mists of time and clouded by legend. Some ignorant septons claim that the Seven themselves laid out its boundaries, other men that dragons once roosted on the Battle Isle until the first Hightower put an end to them. - TWOIAF, The Reach, Oldtown. Also this: "Maester Jellicoe suggested the settlement at Whispering Sound began as a trading post where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles could resupply and trade with so-called "elder races".[1]" In my opinion the founder of House Hightower, after he created a settlement at the location that now is known as Oldtown, was visited by his Valyrian-relatives. And when those relatives came to Westeros, they came there with their dragons. And thus during those visits, their dragons were roosting on the Battle Isle. Could be that the first Lord Hightower also wanted to have his own dragon (because why not? ), and thus he asked his half-siblings (40 Valyrian Dragonlords) to share, and to give him one of their dragons (because by that time they had more than 40. Those 40 that they had at first, layed eggs, and from those eggs hatched more dragons). Though the Valyrians refused to share, and thus the Hightower chased them away from his lands, and forbade them to bring dragons to the Battle Isle. And this quote from the World Book is an evidence of my theory - "dragons once roosted on the Battle Isle until the first Hightower put an end to them". How could have that first Hightower to put an end to the dragons that were roosting on his lands? He just asked his half-siblings - Valyrian Dragonlords, not to bring their dragons to his lands. That's it. Now, why is this relevant for the Corbrays too? -> https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Corbray The possibility that the first Hightowers and Daynes were bloodrelated to Valyrian Dragonlords is kind of obvious, because there's a lot of clues about this. Same concerning the possibility of the founders of 40 Great Valyrian Families also being Azor Ahai's children - Hugor of the Hill had 44 sons, so because GRRM (the Author) likes to insert parallels in his books, could be that Azor Ahai also had 44 sons. The first 40 of them were the founders of 40 Valyrian Great Families, and the remaining 4 were - the founder of House Hightower, the founder of House Dayne, and two more. I thought about who were those remaining two, and considered multiple candidates. Amongst them were Martells and many others, though they were all crossed out from the list fairly fast. Because in my opinion they were supposed to be people with some sort of connection to the Targaryens and to the main plot of ASOIAF, and they are supposed to have a mysterious origin (and the origin of the Martells is known). Thus I thought that there should be some sort of hint inserted into the plot by GRRM. And then I found that hint. It's the sword of Corbrays - Lady Forlorn, a Valyrian Steel blade. The Andals migrated to Westeros in two waves. The first wave had occured not long after the First Long Night. At that time only small number of Andals had migrated from Essos to Westeros, and all of them settled at the Vale and only at the Vale. It was hundreds or maybe even thousands years prior the second wave of migration. The second wave had occured because after the rise of Valyria, when Valyrians tamed dragons and, using them conquered and enslaved nearly all nations that were inhabiting Essos, the Andals migrated from Essos to Westeros not to be conquered by the Dragonlords. During the second wave of migration the Andals settled all over Westeros, excluding the Vale (which was already settled by the Andals during the first wave) and the North (because the Northmen fought off the Andals and prevented their conquest of the North). This is what is known about the founder of House Corbray, a guy who came to Westeros during the first wave of Andal migration: "Ser Corwyn Corbray was an Andal knight during the Andal invasion of the Vale and the founder of House Corbray.[1] Corwyn Corbray conquered the Fingers by defeating Houses Brightstone and Shell, claiming for himself the title of Lord of the Five Fingers. House Corbray of Heart's Home is a noble house from Heart's Home in the Vale of Arryn. It is an old but poor house.[4] The ancestral Valyrian steel longsword[5] of the Corbrays is Lady Forlorn.[3]" Just because Corwyn Corbray was an Andal knight, it doesn't mean that he himself also was an Andal. For example - Dany is a Dothraki-Khaleese, but is she a Dothraki herself? No. Thus Corwyn Corbray was not an Andal, despite being an Andal knight. Instead he was one of Azor Ahai's children, and thus his 40 "Valyrian" half-brothers gave him a Valyrian Steel sword as a present. That's how an Andal knight that migrated to Westeros during the first wave of Andal migration, hundreds or maybe even thousands of years before the Targaryens came there, owned a Valyrian Steel blade. Corwyn becoming the Lord of the Five Fingers, is also a hint from GRRM. Azor Ahai and his five wives is a Fiery Hand of R'hllor. Five fingers - five wives of Azor Ahai. The first wife - the first finger, the tumb - was the mother of Azor's first 40 sons. Valyrian peninsula on the map looks like a downturned tumb. The second wife - the pointing finger - was the mother of the first Lord Hightower - he was his family's first ranger/scout/pioneer, he "paved the way" for his younger half-siblings, thus his House's moto is - We light the way. And the mother of Corwyn Corbray was Azor Ahai's third wife - she is the Lady Forlorn. He named his Valyrian sword to honor his mother. She was Azor's third wife, and then Azor met Nissa Nissa, who became his favorite and removed all of her rivals out of Azor's heart. The first wife gave birth to Azor's 40 sons, the second wife's son became their family's First Ranger (which is a BIG HONOR), and what consolation prize was left to Azor's third wife? - Nothing, and thus she became forlorn - unhappy, miserable, unfortunate, abandoned, neglected, lonely - those are symonyms of the word "forlorn". Because of Azor's fourth wife - Nissa Nissa - his third wife, Lady Forlorn, was removed from his heart. And thus on the family sigil of House Corbray there are three ravens that carry three hearts. Ravens because Azor's first non-Valyrian son was a scout, and thus his next non-Valyrian son - Corwyn Corbray, was their family's messenger (raven-mail, get it?). And three hearts because Corwyn's mother was Azor Ahai's third wife. And the Corbray's castle is called Heart's Home because that's where - at the Vale with her son - Azor's third wife found her home after being forlorn by her husband. Another clue/connection between Corbrays and Valyrians - near Heart's Home is located Snakewood forest. In my opinion this forest was named like this because it was the location at which roosted dragons, when their Valyrian masters were visiting their half-brother - Lord Corbray at the Vale. Same as how the dragons were roosting near Oldtown at Battle Isle, when the first Lord Hightower was visited by his Valyrian half-siblings. Another clue - this one connects Corbrays to the current events of ASOIAF's plot - "During the First Blackfyre Rebellion, Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard was part of the loyalist forces that fought Daemon Blackfyre at the Battle of the Redgrass Field. They dueled for nearly an hour, their Valyrian steel swords Blackfyre and Lady Forlorn clashing loudly. At last, Blackfyre struck Gwayne's helm and left him blind and bleeding. Daemon dismounted to tend to his foe and ordered Redtusk to carry Gwayne back to the maesters for healing, an action that afterwards some considered decisive, since it gave the Raven's Teeth enough time to find a good position to fire the arrows that killed Daemon.[17]" "The great-grandfather of Lord Petyr Baelish was a sellsword from Braavos who came to the Vale after being hired by a Lord Corbray.[18]" <- I wrote about this in Swan Song part 15. In my opinion Littlefinger's great-grandfather was a son of an Otherys-girl (one of Bellegere Otherys' granddaughters) and the Bastard of Harrenhal (who was a son of Jeyne Lothston and Aegon IV Targaryen). The three Otheryses - Bellenora, Narha and Balerion - were half-siblings of Daemon I Blackfyre, and the Bastard of Harrenhal. The girl with whom hooked up the Bastard, was a niece of Daemon I Blackfyre, and thus she was a first cousin to Daemon's children - Calla, Aenys, Haegon, etc. So when her son wanted to migrate from Braavos to the 7K, she asked for a favor from her Blackfyre-relatives, and because House Corbray were indebted to the Blackfyres (for Daemon I sparing Gwayne Corbray's life), they agreed to hire the girl's son, and that's how he - the great-grandfather of Lord Petyr Baelish, who was a sellsword from Braavos, was hired by a Lord Corbray and migrated to the Vale. Thus we have (the summary about Corbrays): 1. connection between Corbrays and Azor Ahai - three hearts on the banner of the Corbrays symbolise Azor's third wife; 2. connection between Corbrays and Valyrians - a) the first Lord Corbray owned a Valyrian Steel blade, when other people at Westeros haven't even heard yet about Valyria or Valyrian Steel, b) Snakewood; 3. connection between Corbrays and the current plot of ASOIAF - they reveal Petyr Baelish' bloodrelation to the Otheryses, the Blackfyres and the Targaryens. Now about Swanns. In my opinion they are hereditary shadowbinders and skinchangers. And their House's banner is the clue about their true nature. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Swann "Battling swans black and white, beaks and feet golden, on per pale white and black field". Maybe it's not two swans - black and white, maybe instead it's a white swan and her black shadow. It's a clue that the female Swanns are skinchangers and shadowbinders. They are similar to the Crane-women. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Crane "According to legend the house was founded by Rose of Red Lake, a daughter of Garth Greenhand. It is rumored that some female members of House Crane are able to skinchange into cranes.[1] " I wrote in Swan Song part 2, 3 and 4 about Johanna Swann, her daughter Larra Rogare/Serenei of Lys, and her granddaughter Shiera Seastar/shadowbinder Quaithe/the Three-Eyed Crow. Im my opinion all three of them were cat-skinchangers. It doesn't actually matter which animal, bird or other being is used by a skinchanger as his/her vessel. Because if someone has a skinchanging genes, then that someone can skinchange into anything - cats, dogs, ravens, cranes, horses, people, whatever. In Fire&Blood (in my opinion) there was a hint that Johanna Swann skinchanged into a shadow-cat that killed some guy at Lys. It was also written there in plain text that Larra Rogare had some sort of mysterious connection with cats and that she supposedly was using them as her spies, and also that she herself was able to turn into a cat. Which is just GRRM's way of saying that Larra was a skinchanger. I found clues in ASOIAF that Shiera also was/is a skinchanger, and same as her grandmother - Johanna Swann, she was using a shadow-cat as her vessel/skin. Using this vessel she attacked Mance Rayder near the Shadow Tower, then she shadow-glamoured herself to look like a Wildling. And while she was treating Mance from his wounds, she was bewitching him, which then caused him to desert from the Night's Watch and to go to the Wildlings to unite them into a single tribe. Shiera was intending to give this army to Jon, to use it against the Others during the Second Long Night. Johanna, Larra and Shiera are Swanns by blood, and they are cat-skinchangers, and also all three of them are users of blood-magic. Who was Azor Ahai's fifth wife? He met Nissa Nissa, madly fell in love with her, and even forgot his other three wives. Thus while he had Nissa, he wasn't even noticing other women. Thus he had married for the fifth time only after Nissa's death, after the First Long Night ended. In my opinion it makes sense if Azor Ahai was a son of the Amethyst Empress. The Long Night was caused by the Blood Betrayal - the Bloodstone Emperor killed his sister, the Amethyst Empress. So to end the Long Night Azor had to kill his uncle. Afterwards the Bloodstone Emperor's wife - a tiger-woman, became a widow. As I wrote in SS-16, in ancient times in our world there was a custom according to which if a man died and left a widow, his brother was obligated to marry with her and to provide for her. Thus I think that GRRM inserted something similar into ASOIAF-TWOIAF's plot - after Azor Ahai killed his uncle, he married with his widow - the tiger-woman. And in my opinion that woman was not some sort of hybrid of a tiger and a human, instead she was a cat-skinchanger, same as Johanna Swann, her daughter Larra Rogare and her granddaughter - Shiera Seastar. Thus it makes sense that the female-Swanns are carriers of skinchanging genes, and that they particularly have inclinations to skinchange into cats. Because the mother of House Swann's founder was Azor Ahai's fifth wife - the tiger-woman. Additionally about the Bloodstone Emperor it is known that he was practicing blood-magic and other forms of dark magic. What if his wife - the tiger-woman, was the one who was teaching him all that? She was a bloodmage and a shadowbinder, same as Larra Rogare and Shiera Seastar. The castle Storm's End is protected by magical sigils. According to Melisandre - her shadow-demons can't go thru those sigils, that's why she had to go with Davos herself to Storm's End, and to give there birth to one of her shadow-spawns, inside the walls of the castle, past the protective barrier. Have you ever thought why whoever build Storm's End, had insterted anti-shadow protective spells into its walls? Againts whom the Storm Kings, the Durrandons were using those sigils? "House Swann is an old noble house, regarded as proud, powerful and cautious.[1] They have governed their lands for as long as any can remember. From Stonehelm they control the Slayne, a major river route inland to the stormlands, gaining them much wealth and power. They are probably the second most powerful and influential family in the stormlands, after the Baratheons.[6] " Before Orys Baratheon defeated Argillac Durrandon and married with his daughter and took over Storm's End, before Baratheons became the most powerful and influential family in the Stormlands, on the first place were the Durrandons. And on the second place then, same as now, were the Swanns. So that's why the Durrandons inserted anti-shadow sigils and protective spells into their castle's walls. Because that's how they were protecting themselves from the Swanns, who were shadowbinders and users of blood magic, same as their ancestor - the tiger-woman. So the Swanns are shadowbinders, and skinchangers (at least some of their women are, same as some of the Crane women). Also about House Swann it isn't written anywhere what is their ethnic origin - whether they are the First Men or the Andals. Because they are neither. The Swanns, same as the Hightowers and the Daynes are not the First Men House, and not the Andal House, so who are they? -> They are Azor Ahai's descendants, and they came to Westeros after the end of the First Long Night and prior mass-migration of the Andals. <- That's how I found them. Because GRRM has withheld from the readers the piece of information about the origin of House Swann. And I think that when GRRM holds back something from the readers, he does it because that piece of information is important. I figured out the scheme how GRRM writes his mysteries, and thus created a method using which those mysteries could be solved - MP+PTSD = Missing Pieces, Patterns, Trinities, Symbols and Deduction. The summary about Swanns: 1. connection between Swanns and Azor Ahai - three cat-women (Johanna Swann, Larra Rogare, Shiera Seastar) who are descendants of Azor Ahai's fifth wife - the tiger-woman; 2. connection between Swanns and Valyrians - Larra Rogare, the wife of Viserys II Targaryen and the mother of Aegon IV, was half-Swann. Thus thru her all the Targaryens after Aegon IV (including all the Blackfyres) are partially Swanns; 3. connection between Swanns and the current plot of ASOIAF - a) Shiera Seastar who is also the shadowbinder Quaithe and the Three-Eyed Crow, and Mance Rayder's Wildling healer, and the ex-teacher of Mirri Maz Duur, maester Marrwyn, and Euron Greyjoy, is 1/4 Swann thru her maternal grandmother - Johanna Swann, b) septa Lemore's real name is Jeyne Swann. She is the Perfumed Seneschal and fAegon's mother (I wrote about this in SS-14). <- And thus based on all that, in my opinion, the Corbrays and the Swanns are Azor Ahai's descendants, same as the Hightowers and the Daynes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asongofheresy Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 I don't agree with your theories fully, and I will admit at sometimes I feel confused by them, but I do agree that Rhaego could very well be alive, and your attempt at understanding dragonseeds and the connection between other houses is something I also do, though yours is much more detailed then my ideas. I do have some ideas about Saera Targaryen and her possible bastards, I think she could be mother of Alicent Hightower, Mysaria of Lys, the ancestor of Saan family, and ancestor of Nymeria Sand through her Volantene son, but these connections are hardly effective for the current plot right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted October 29, 2021 Author Share Posted October 29, 2021 5 hours ago, asongofheresy said: I do have some ideas about Saera Targaryen and her possible bastards, I think she could be mother of Alicent Hightower, Mysaria of Lys, the ancestor of Saan family, and ancestor of Nymeria Sand through her Volantene son, but these connections are hardly effective for the current plot right? Right. GRRM wrote his books in such a way that the events of the past are influencing events that are happening in the current plot, or they will be influencing the upcoming events in the next books. Also he's following the pattern - "the history repeats itself", or - certain events happen more than once. And those parallel events in the past and in the present (or in the future) are not just mirror/reflect each other, they are also connected to each other and to the other parts of the plot. So if GRRM did inserted Saera's descendants into the current plot, then there should be some sort of subtle connection between her and them. The Saans are obviously connected to the Golden Company and to the Blackfyres, because they participated in the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion alongside with Maelys the Monstrous, and Salladhor Saan (Salla - Davos' friend) is just the right age to be the son or nephew (or maybe a grandson) of the Ninepenny King - Samarro Saan. So it's likely that he (Salla) will play a role in the upcoming Sixth Blackfyre Rebellion. And he could be one of Saera's descendants, same as Illyrio Mopatis, which ties both of them to each other and to the upcoming events that will happen in the next books. Though I'm doubtful about Mysaria - what kind of relevance can she have for the current plot? And about the Hightowers - there is really something fishy going on in their House. There are multiple connections between the Hightowers and the Targaryens, and it's not just Alicent and the possibility of both those Houses being Azor Ahai's descendants. There could be some sort of connection between Mysaria and the Hightowers. Mysaria was supposedly a "witch" from Lys, and it was Jon Hightower (the King's Hand) who brought Serenei of Lys to Aegon IV's court, and Serenei also was a "witch", same as Mysaria. And now amongst the Hightowers there's another witch - the Mad Maid Malora Hightower. And in my opinion Gerold Hightower was a Faceless Man. And also it seems that the Faceless Men helped Otto Hightower to become again the King's Hand, after he was once dismissed from that post. Also in my opinion the Faceless Men were involved in Saera Targaryen's downfall and subsequent migration to Essos, because the Sealord of Braavos (the leader of the Faceless Men) was intending to use Saera as a breeder who will produce for him three children with the blood of the dragons, and then those children were supposed to hatch for the Sealord those three dragon eggs that the Braavosi got from Elissa Farman (I wrote about this in the Iron Shell, part 2). Also there was this: "Septon Eustace suggests that Helaena Targaryen jumped to her death after being informed by Mysaria of how her son, Prince Maelor Targaryen, had been killed at Bitterbridge.[3]" In my opinion could be that Helaena was killed by the Faceless Men and that Maelor wasn't killed at Bitterbridge, instead a Kingsguard Rickard Thorne, who was a Faceless Man, kidnapped Maelor and brought him to Braavos, to hatch a dragon eggs for the Sealord (though this attempt also failed, same as the one with Saera Targaryen's children). Also - Alerie Hightower is married with Mace Tyrell, and her sister - Denyse is married with Desmond Redwyne. In my opinion Mace's mother - Olenna Tyrell (nee Redwyne) is a daughter of Calla Blackfyre. I think that Calla married with Runceford Redwyne, and that's why Illyrio Mopatis has a cask of wine from Runceford's private stores. If Illyrio is one of Saera Targaryen's descendants, and he is connected to the Redwynes, then he is also connected through them to the Hightowers. And through Varys, who is a Blackfyre, Illyrio and the Hightowers are also connected to Salladhor Saan, who is possibly a son of one of the Ninepenny Kings (Samarro Saan), same as Varys (Maelys Blackfyre's son. Maelys also was a Ninepenny King). So there is something going on with the Hightowers, something connected to the Faceless Men and magic. It appears that there is indeed a connection between Saera, Mysaria, Saans and the Hightowers. Though it also seems that you made a wrong conclusion concerning what that connection could mean. And I don't see what role in all that can play Nymeria Sand. I think that, metaphorically speaking - she's a piece from a different jigsaw puzzle, not this one. If Nymeria will be removed from your theory, how will it influence the concept / the Big Picture of your theory? Try to revise your theory without Nymeria as a part of it. Maybe that way the Big Picture will be clearer. "Nymeria's mother comes from the noblest blood of Volantis,[1] the Free City where Nym was born.[6]" Saera's son was a bastard, so how could he have became "the noblest blood" of Volantis? His father was a Triarch, Ok. That doesn't make his bastard child a noble. And the Triarches are elected, they don't pass down their titles to their children. "The triarchs are chosen from amongst the noble families who can prove unbroken descent from old Valyria, and will serve for a year, until the first day of the new year. " Nymeria's mother is a noble, and for her to be a descendant of that Saera's son whose father was a Triarch of the Volantis, that guy was supposed to be somehow moved into the cast of nobles. How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asongofheresy Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 39 minutes ago, Megorova said: Right. GRRM wrote his books in such a way that the events of the past are influencing events that are happening in the current plot, or they will be influencing the upcoming events in the next books. Also he's following the pattern - "the history repeats itself", or - certain events happen more than once. And those parallel events in the past and in the present (or in the future) are not just mirror/reflect each other, they are also connected to each other and to the other parts of the plot. So if GRRM did inserted Saera's descendants into the current plot, then there should be some sort of subtle connection between her and them. The Saans are obviously connected to the Golden Company and to the Blackfyres, because they participated in the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion alongside with Maelys the Monstrous, and Salladhor Saan (Salla - Davos' friend) is just the right age to be the son or nephew (or maybe a grandson) of the Ninepenny King - Samarro Saan. So it's likely that he (Salla) will play a role in the upcoming Sixth Blackfyre Rebellion. And he could be one of Saera's descendants, same as Illyrio Mopatis, which ties both of them to each other and to the upcoming events that will happen in the next books. Though I'm doubtful about Mysaria - what kind of relevance can she have for the current plot? And about the Hightowers - there is really something fishy going on in their House. There are multiple connections between the Hightowers and the Targaryens, and it's not just Alicent and the possibility of both those Houses being Azor Ahai's descendants. There could be some sort of connection between Mysaria and the Hightowers. Mysaria was supposedly a "witch" from Lys, and it was Jon Hightower (the King's Hand) who brought Serenei of Lys to Aegon IV's court, and Serenei also was a "witch", same as Mysaria. And now amongst the Hightowers there's another witch - the Mad Maid Malora Hightower. And in my opinion Gerold Hightower was a Faceless Man. And also it seems that the Faceless Men helped Otto Hightower to become again the King's Hand, after he was once dismissed from that post. Also in my opinion the Faceless Men were involved in Saera Targaryen's downfall and subsequent migration to Essos, because the Sealord of Braavos (the leader of the Faceless Men) was intending to use Saera as a breeder who will produce for him three children with the blood of the dragons, and then those children were supposed to hatch for the Sealord those three dragon eggs that the Braavosi got from Elissa Farman (I wrote about this in the Iron Shell, part 2). Also there was this: "Septon Eustace suggests that Helaena Targaryen jumped to her death after being informed by Mysaria of how her son, Prince Maelor Targaryen, had been killed at Bitterbridge.[3]" In my opinion could be that Helaena was killed by the Faceless Men and that Maelor wasn't killed at Bitterbridge, instead a Kingsguard Rickard Thorne, who was a Faceless Man, kidnapped Maelor and brought him to Braavos, to hatch a dragon eggs for the Sealord (though this attempt also failed, same as the one with Saera Targaryen's children). Also - Alerie Hightower is married with Mace Tyrell, and her sister - Denyse is married with Desmond Redwyne. In my opinion Mace's mother - Olenna Tyrell (nee Redwyne) is a daughter of Calla Blackfyre. I think that Calla married with Runceford Redwyne, and that's why Illyrio Mopatis has a cask of wine from Runceford's private stores. If Illyrio is one of Saera Targaryen's descendants, and he is connected to the Redwynes, then he is also connected through them to the Hightowers. And through Varys, who is a Blackfyre, Illyrio and the Hightowers are also connected to Salladhor Saan, who is possibly a son of one of the Ninepenny Kings (Samarro Saan), same as Varys (Maelys Blackfyre's son. Maelys also was a Ninepenny King). So there is something going on with the Hightowers, something connected to the Faceless Men and magic. It appears that there is indeed a connection between Saera, Mysaria, Saans and the Hightowers. Though it also seems that you made a wrong conclusion concerning what that connection could mean. And I don't see what role in all that can play Nymeria Sand. I think that, metaphorically speaking - she's a piece from a different jigsaw puzzle, not this one. If Nymeria will be removed from your theory, how will it influence the concept / the Big Picture of your theory? Try to revise your theory without Nymeria as a part of it. Maybe that way the Big Picture will be clearer. "Nymeria's mother comes from the noblest blood of Volantis,[1] the Free City where Nym was born.[6]" Saera's son was a bastard, so how could he have became "the noblest blood" of Volantis? His father was a Triarch, Ok. That doesn't make his bastard child a noble. And the Triarches are elected, they don't pass down their titles to their children. "The triarchs are chosen from amongst the noble families who can prove unbroken descent from old Valyria, and will serve for a year, until the first day of the new year. " Nymeria's mother is a noble, and for her to be a descendant of that Saera's son whose father was a Triarch of the Volantis, that guy was supposed to be somehow moved into the cast of nobles. How? Now the information about Volantis is an interesting one, I was just curious why Oberyn was ever invited inside the walls of Volantis and could sire a bastard with a noble Valyrian family, would Nymeria's mother be a possible match for Rhaegar if Oberyn didn't had a relation with her, that was my reasoning to try to tie her to Saera, since Aerys were searching for a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar. Now Illyrio and Salla, as crackpot as it is, I believe Salladhor is Illyrio, behind the glamour of gemstone rings and a possible belief to Rhllor, the fat man of Pentos is a notorious pirate lord, who may or may not lose his braavo physique, not only that Salladhor's colorful sails reminds me Tattered Prince colorful banner, Tattered is a Pentosi noble with Valyrian look, but as I said it is all crackpot. The connection between Serenei and Mysaria is great, what if Serenei is a descendant of Saera, or the Rogares in general, from the Princess' Lyseni son, then I would love to think of Lysano Maar as the last of Rogares if I am allowed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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