Swan Song part 16/16. Exotic fruits on family trees

[Megorova]

6 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

would Nymeria's mother be a possible match for Rhaegar if Oberyn didn't had a relation with her, that was my reasoning to try to tie her to Saera, since Aerys were searching for a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar. 

No, she wouldn't. Because Nymeria was born in 274 or 275, and King Aerys had sent Steffon Baratheon to Volantis to look there for a noble bride for Rhaegar in 278. Rhaegar was born in 259, so at the time of Nymeria's birth he was 15-16, and at the time when Oberyn hooked up with Nimerya's future mother, Rhaegar was 14-15. At that point in time Aerys wasn't yet looking for a bride for Rhaegar outside of the 7K.

10 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

The connection between Serenei and Mysaria is great, what if Serenei is a descendant of Saera, or the Rogares in general,

Serenei is a Rogare. I am BILLION % sure in it. Serenei of Lys and Larra Rogare is the same person, I wrote about this in Part 3 of the Swan Song. Their portraits in the World Book is the biggest evidence for this theory. Those two women on those portraits - they don't just look alike, they are the same person. Because they have identical bone-structure and facial proportions. The police and FBI are using special computer programs to identify dead bodies that are past recognition. How those programs work was showed in numerous TV-shows - Crime Scene Investigarion, Criminal Minds, Bones, Law and Order, etc.

Serenei is Larra Rogare. That's a fact. Specifically because of what GRRM said about Serenei in one of his So Spake Martyn - that she was using blood magic and that she was way older than Aegon IV.

10 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

then I would love to think of Lysano Maar as the last of Rogares if I am allowed to. 

You could be right about Lysano.

Larra Rogare's father - Lysandro Rogare additionally had other legitimate children, amongst them a son - Lysaro, who was his father's heir, and amongst his daughters were - Lysara and Marra. Their names are very similar to "Lysano Maar", so he could be a descendant from one of those three. Good catch

[Lady_Qohor]

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

Serenei is Larra Rogare. That's a fact.

It's not a fact, its a theory.

These are fictional characters, their background and stories don't become set in stone until the author explicitly states it in a published work (or at a stretch an interview). Even IF GRRM intended for your theory to be true, he can perfectly easily decide to change his mind later on and then whatever story he replaces yours with becomes canon. 

[asongofheresy]

22 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, she wouldn't. Because Nymeria was born in 274 or 275, and King Aerys had sent Steffon Baratheon to Volantis to look there for a noble bride for Rhaegar in 278. Rhaegar was born in 259, so at the time of Nymeria's birth he was 15-16, and at the time when Oberyn hooked up with Nimerya's future mother, Rhaegar was 14-15. At that point in time Aerys wasn't yet looking for a bride for Rhaegar outside of the 7K.

Serenei is a Rogare. I am BILLION % sure in it. Serenei of Lys and Larra Rogare is the same person, I wrote about this in Part 3 of the Swan Song. Their portraits in the World Book is the biggest evidence for this theory. Those two women on those portraits - they don't just look alike, they are the same person. Because they have identical bone-structure and facial proportions. The police and FBI are using special computer programs to identify dead bodies that are past recognition. How those programs work was showed in numerous TV-shows - Crime Scene Investigarion, Criminal Minds, Bones, Law and Order, etc.

Serenei is Larra Rogare. That's a fact. Specifically because of what GRRM said about Serenei in one of his So Spake Martyn - that she was using blood magic and that she was way older than Aegon IV.

You could be right about Lysano.

Larra Rogare's father - Lysandro Rogare additionally had other legitimate children, amongst them a son - Lysaro, who was his father's heir, and amongst his daughters were - Lysara and Marra. Their names are very similar to "Lysano Maar", so he could be a descendant from one of those three. Good catch

A question, you seem to form family trees to understand a necessary blood line for rebirth of Azor Ahai/PTWP figure, am I right to think of them as that?, do you think this will be a parallel to Bene Gesserit of Dune, did stray Targaryen lineages meticulously arranged marriages to have the necessary genes for the birth of Prince that was Promised? 

[Megorova]

32 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

do you think this will be a parallel to Bene Gesserit of Dune

Yes, something like that.

33 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

did stray Targaryen lineages meticulously arranged marriages to have the necessary genes for the birth of Prince that was Promised? 

It's not like THEY arranged it, more like GRRM made it so.

In my opinion it looks like GRRM was intending for the Promised Prince, or rather for all three heads of the Prophessed Dragon, to be a carriers of the Ice & Fire Blood, where the Ice part is the blood of the Starks - the blood of the Last Hero, and the Fire part is the blood of Azor Ahai.

If my theory is correct (that Azor Ahai had 44 children with 5 different women), then only in case if all of his descendants will eventually gather together all the strands of Azor's Fire-DNA, only in this case they will be "Azor Ahai Reborn", because they will be the carriers of the same blood as him.

The Targaryens were one of the 40 Dragonlord Families of Valyria. So it's likely that in those several thousands years - between the rise of Valyria and its Doom, the people from all those 40 families had intermarried. So the Targaryens were not the carriers of the genes from only one of Azor's "Valyrian" sons, instead they had in their genetic pool the DNA of all 40 Valyrian Dragonlords - those 40 of Azor's sons that were born by his first wife. So even though only the Targaryens had survived after the Doom, the DNA of the other 39 Dragonlord Families wasn't lost.

Then the Targaryens added into their gene-pool the Hightower blood, from the marriage between Prince Maekar and Dyanna Dayne, who possibly was a granddaughter of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower.

The blood of Corbrays possibly was added thru the marriage between Viserys I and Aemma Arryn. Considering that the Arryns were the Overlords of The Vale, and the Corbrays were their bannermen for several thousands years, it's likely that eventually one or maybe even several Arryns married with a Corbray-girls, and that way the Arryns became the carriers of Corbray-genes. And then after the marriage between a Targaryen and an Arryn, the following generations of the Targaryens (starting from Rhaenyra) also became the carriers of the Corbray-blood. From that moment they were vessels of the DNA of Azor's 40 "Valyrian" sons, and the sons of Azor's second and third wives.

Thru the marriage with Dyanna Dayne, the Targaryens also got the blood of Azor's 43rd son - Nissa Nissa's son. And thru the marriage between Larra Rogare (whose mother was Johanna Swann) and Viserys II Targaryen, the Targaryens also added into their gene-pool the DNA of Azor's 44th son.

And then thru the marriage between Aegon V and Betha Blackwood, they added into their gene-pool the blood of the Last Hero (Cregan Stark - Mariah Stark - Melissa Blackwood - Mya Rivers - Betha Blackwood).

And when they got the complete set (DNA of the Last Hero + DNA of Azor Ahai), they got a weapon necessary to defeat the Others. Thus - A Song of Ice and Fire. And it is similar to a genetic engineering that was done in "Dune".

[Megorova]

10 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Even IF GRRM intended for your theory to be true, he can perfectly easily decide to change his mind later on and then whatever story he replaces yours with becomes canon. 

He won't. HE SAID SO HIMSELF.

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html

Quote

I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.

There are clues all over ASOIAF that tie together the Swanns/Johanna/Larra-Serenei/Shiera to the Targaryens. There are numerous clues that lead to the conclusions that I made by following the trail of those clues. And GRRM isn't going to change those elements, because they are already in the books. He can't use all those elements as a building material for some other reveal, except the reveal for which those clues/elements were originally intended.

GRRM planned that Johanna Swann is Larra Rogare's mother. He planned that Johanna worked at the Perfumed Garden, and thus Johanna's relative - Jeyne Swann/septa Lemore/fAegon's mother is the Perfumed Seneschal. He planned that Jeyne Swann's unnamed septa was Shiera Seastar in shadow-glamour, and that she prepared for Jeyne a love potion, using which Jeyne seduced Barristan Selmy, and gave birth to fAegon. That's why in The Sworn Sword novel he added thru Egg those reveals about Egg's sister trying to use love potion on him, and also revealed to the readers that Shiera was bathing in blood to retain her beauty. He also said about Serenei of Lys that she was using dark arts to look young, and that she was significally older than the King. And it wasn't written in TWOIAF when or how Larra Rogare died. All those elements were inserted there for a later reveal that Shiera Seastar is still alive, that same as her mother - Larra Rogare/Serenei of Lys - she was using blood magic to stay young. And there are many other elements that were inserted into the plot for the reveal about Serenei-Larra and Shiera-Quaithe.

Metaphorically speaking, GRRM can't just make now all those already existing clues to poin to the "butler", because in this case he was writing all those clues to point to the "maiden". So he can't, and won't change those things.

Mark my words - Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys is the same person, and it's ALREADY a fact and not merely a theory, because on their portraits in TWOIAF is depicted the same person, and it's a part of the Big Picture that GRRM can't cut out of it. What is done is done, and can't be changed.

[Lady_Qohor]

8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

He won't. HE SAID SO HIMSELF.

Yeah, but GRRM says a lot of stuff that doesn't work out e.g. how quickly he'll finish his books. 

Also he hasn't actually specifically said Larra=Serenei yet. This is just a theory based on observations you've made. 

[Megorova]

17 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Also he hasn't actually specifically said Larra=Serenei yet.

Actually he did - thru their portraits, on which is depicted the same person.

He approved the insertion of those portraits into TWOIAF-book and, considering that it seems that since its publication (in 2014), I'm the only reader that has figured out the significance of those portraits (that on them is depicted the same person), the insertion of that clue into the books was not excessive, not too revealing.

So thru those portraits GRRM said - Larra=Serenei, and the readers didn't noticed it, because even when people look, they not always SEE.

[Ran]

On 10/29/2021 at 5:08 PM, Megorova said:

Those two women on those portraits - they don't just look alike, they are the same person.

I was directly involved in the depictions of these characters, in the loop with George, the art director, the editor, and Magali Villeneuve. I have George's specific directions for Serenei of Lys.

Suffice it to say, she is not Larra, nor vice versa.

[Lady_Qohor]

5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Actually he did - thru their portraits, on which is depicted the same person.

He approved the insertion of those portraits into TWOIAF-book and, considering that it seems that since its publication (in 2014), I'm the only reader that has figured out the significance of those portraits (that on them is depicted the same person), the insertion of that clue into the books was not excessive, not too revealing.

So thru those portraits GRRM said - Larra=Serenei, and the readers didn't noticed it, because even when people look, they not always SEE.

That's not the same thing as confirmation, that's just you thinking the characters look the same. 

Lots of artists and animators show less diversity in drawing women than men. Lots of female characters in Disney and Pixar films have practically identical eye shape and facial structures, that doesn't mean the writers intended them all to be the same person, it's just an example of lazy sexism in animation. 

 

[Megorova]

19 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Lots of artists and animators show less diversity in drawing women than men.

Which is not the case with the author of those portraits - all the people in her pictures are diversified. All except Larra and Serenei. We have already discussed this same topic, and I told you there what I think about your claims that Magali is supposedly one of those lazy copy-pasters.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159015-swan-song-part-316-larra-rogare-a-chameleon-and-a-cat-woman/&do=findComment&comment=8682809

Let's end this discussion, because I won't change my opinion, and it looks like you won't change yours. So Until next time

[Willam Stark]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Which is not the case with the author of those portraits - all the people in her pictures are diversified. All except Larra and Serenei.

It's funny, you ignored Ran's comment who worked directly with GRRM unlike you.

[Megorova]

1 minute ago, Willam Stark said:

It's funny, you ignored Ran's comment who worked directly with GRRM unlike you.

No comments.

P.S. But it's not because of the reason you think.

P.P.S. To you too - and let's end this discussion, because I want to read that new thread about Septa Lemore. So I'm done here for now, and am going there.

[Willam Stark]

2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

P.S. But it's not because of the reason you think.

Yeah yeah that's what they all say...

I'm glad you're done here.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 5/30/2021 at 1:37 PM, Megorova said:

Maekar Targaryen had Valyrian looks, even though his mother had Dornish looks? Drazenko Rogare being that Valyrian ancestor from whom Myriah and Maekar inherited Valyrian genes is the most likely option.

His dad, King Daeron II. Considering the traits of Larra and Viserys had, and that Daeron II was born from incest (which keeps the blood pure and features relatively similar), you don't need Drazenko for Valyrian features. 

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Which is not the case with the author of those portraits - all the people in her pictures are diversified. All except Larra and Serenei. We have already discussed this same topic, and I told you there what I think about your claims that Magali is supposedly one of those lazy copy-pasters.

 

@Ran just said above that she's not Larra though, or vice versa....and he basically wrote the World Book, along with Linda Antonsson and GRRM. 

[Willam Stark]

9 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

His dad, King Daeron II. Considering the traits of Larra and Viserys had, and that Daeron II was born from incest (which keeps the blood pure and features relatively similar), you don't need Drazenko for Valyrian features. 

Recessive genes must be contributed by both parents to be expressed, so Myriah must have a Valyrian ancestor who carried these genes, Drazenko Rogare is the most likely option. This would mean that she is Daeron II's second cousin through their Rogare side.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

Recessive genes must be contributed by both parents to be expressed, so Myriah must have a Valyrian ancestor who carried these genes, Drazenko Rogare is the most likely option. This would mean that she is Daeron II's second cousin through their Rogare side.

I don't think the Martell line was continued by Aliandra and Drazenko. It's not impossible and I can't prove it didn't happen, but the MUSH states Aliandra's sister Coryanne succeeded her as Princess of Dorne. The MUSH isn't canon, but there is canon information in the MUSH since GRRM provided some of his notes to Elio and Linda. And I think it would make sense after all, because Aliandra and Drazenko were only married for a year. Anyway, in the end the genetics in Westeros work exactly how GRRM wants them to work.

[Willam Stark]

14 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I don't think the Martell line was continued by Aliandra and Drazenko. It's not impossible and I can't prove it didn't happen, but the MUSH states Aliandra's sister Coryanne succeeded her as Princess of Dorne. The MUSH isn't canon, but there is canon information in the MUSH since GRRM provided some of his notes to Elio and Linda. And I think it would make sense after all, because Aliandra and Drazenko were only married for a year. Anyway, in the end the genetics in Westeros work exactly how GRRM wants them to work.

This family tree doesn't seems to be canon, because it indicates that Maron married Lorinda Manwoody, a lady we have never heard of, rather than Daenerys Targaryen. Besides a year is more than enough to give birth to a child, the Unnamed Prince then fathered Myriah and Maron Martell who continued House Martell until now. I'll stick to it, since there is no other options available.

As for the recessive genes, GRRM seems to follow their functioning when it's about the hair and eyes colors for what we've seen.

[The Wondering Wolf]

26 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

This family tree doesn't seems to be canon, because it indicates that Maron married Lorinda Manwoody, a lady we have never heard of, rather than Daenerys Targaryen. Besides a year is more than enough to give birth to a child, the Unnamed Prince then fathered Myriah and Maron Martell who continued House Martell until now. I'll stick to it, since there is no other options available.

Qyle and Coryanne are canon, though, and Marence is marked as canon in the game. Anyway, Jaehaerys II had the Valyrian look, too, while his mother was a Blackwood.

[Willam Stark]

15 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Qyle and Coryanne are canon, though, and Marence is marked as canon in the game. Anyway, Jaehaerys II had the Valyrian look, too, while his mother was a Blackwood.

We don't know anything about Betha's ancestry, only that she was the daughter of the Lord Blackwood at that time.

I'm convinced that she has Valyrian ancestry but not from whom it comes. Just an opinion of course, I'm not saying I have proof.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Anyway, Jaehaerys II had the Valyrian look, too, while his mother was a Blackwood.

+

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

We don't know anything about Betha's ancestry, only that she was the daughter of the Lord Blackwood at that time.

I'm convinced that she has Valyrian ancestry but not from whom it comes. Just an opinion of course, I'm not saying I have proof.

I'm also not saying that I have proof, though if my theory concerning Betha Blackwood's ancestry is correct, then it creates a neat picture - in my opinion Betha's mother was Mya Rivers (one of Bloodraven's sisters). So to Egg his wife was his bloodrelative, specifically - first cousin once removed.

Bloodraven, Mya <- half-siblings -> Daeron II.

Betha <- first cousins -> Maekar.

Betha <- first cousins once removed -> Aegon V.

Why else did Maekar agreed for his son to marry with a woman whose family weren't even the Overlords of a Kingdom? A Tully, or Arryn, or Lannister, or Martell would have been a more equal match for a royal Prince. Though if Betha was bloodrelated to Egg, and if she was King Daeron's niece, then she was a suitable match for the King's grandson. No?

@The Wandering Wolf Let's not forget that besides Jaehaerys II, whose mother was not a Targaryen, and who nevertheless had Valyrian looks, there were also other similar cases - the children of Myriah Martell and Daeron II (some of them looked like their non-Targaryen mother, for example - Baelor Breakspear, and some of them looked like their Valyrian father, for example - Maekar); the children of Dyanna Dayne and Prince Maekar; the children of Elia Martell and Rhaegar (Rhaenys had Dornish looks, same as her mother, and Aegon looked like a typical Targaryen). Which means that even though Elia, Dyanna, Myriah and Betha didn't looked like Valyrians, their children did inherited "Valyrian"-genes from both of their parents, their non-Targaryen mothers included.

For a child of a dark-haired parent and a blond-haired parent to have blond hair, both of the parents have to be carriers of the blond hair genes/alleles. Though in case if one of those parents have dark hair, it isn't obvious that he/she also has a set of blond hair genes/alleles, in addition to being a carrier of a dark hair genes/alleles.

Maekar was blond, even though his mother was dark-haired. So this is an evidence that Myriah was a carrier of a blond-hair alleles. And because Maekar's hair was not just blond, but specifically one of "Valyrian"-shades of "blond", it means that amongst Myriah Martell's ancestors there was a Valyrian. Same with Dyanna Dayne, Betha Blackwood and Elia Martell -> they all had a Valyrian ancestor. That's the only possible explanation for how their own descendants had Valyrian looks. 

So far, based on the looks of all ASOIAF's and TWOIAF's characters and who were their parents, it looks like GRRM in his books is using the same principles of the genetical inheritance as those that are working in the real world.