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Angel Eyes

What if Jon stayed dead?

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So this came from a post by @SeanF:

Quote

The Long Night did attract a lot of criticism, even from casual viewers, although more for the fact it was hard to see what was happening, and the absurd tactics, more than for Arya Ninja Turtle. And, I think a lot of people crticised the wight hunt as ridiculous. 

Within the show's continuity, there was actually no reason for Jon to have been resurrected.  Which, as you say, guts the whole story.  If Jon stays dead, Dany finally loses patience and flattens the Red Keep, before destroying the Boltons, and installing any surviving Stark as Lord or Lady of Winterfell. The White Walkers remain stuck North of the Wall - presumably finding a way through eventually, but facing the united resources of the Seven Kingdoms.

So what happens if Jon stays dead? Starting from events Jon directly influences:

  • Sansa got picked up by Brienne and Pod and reaches the Wall, but Jon is toast; she's still here and he's a ghost.
  • Rickon is still handed over to Ramsay.
  • Sansa will have a very hard time to get the Northern Lords on her side because she's a girl; I'm surprised in Season 8 that she became queen with their attitudes

What's next?

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They could also have done without the Long Night and the Others altogether. For what's worth they made sense of GRRM story. Same for Dorne and Euron. Just keep the contest for the IT and a few non magical villains like Ramsay and Cersei.

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Posted (edited)

I prefer if he stays dead - or, if he was never killed at all.

GRRM just has an axe to grind with Tolkien about Gandalf and that's a stupid reason to write in a death/resurrection.

On 5/27/2021 at 2:56 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I'm surprised in Season 8 that she became queen with their attitudes

I think she had to work at it, but in the books she is being guided by Littlefinger to engage with ALL the lords, the ones who like her and the the ones who don't. She's literally in the thick of it in the Vale, wearing any damn floppy ears that they want her to. She's playing dutiful daughter, doting cousin, charming bastard, quiet steward. The show omitting this was stupid but I could still see they were trying to make up for this in Winterfell. She's giving Jon shit for giving up their independence, pushing back against the dragon queen who wants to be their overlord, making sure they have enough supplies and food, looking out for their well-being even after the battle. I liked that the Lords were prickly and I liked that Sansa had to wrangle with them. This is how things should be accomplished most of the time - through hard work - and violence should be used sparingly.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 5/27/2021 at 3:10 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

They could also have done without the Long Night and the Others altogether

Yeah, it's obligatory for fantasy novel cardboard which is why it could easily be skipped. 

"dark evil that threatens the land"

"people must band together to fight against it, or die"

Not interesting to me at least.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah, it's obligatory for fantasy novel cardboard which is why it could easily be skipped. 

"dark evil that threatens the land"

"people must band together to fight against it, or die"

Not interesting to me at least.

Was ironic of me. I've no complaint with prophecies and gods intervention or big magic. Each one his/her taste:D

But contrary to Tolkien, GRRM is not cardboard good versus evil. Rarely, things are like they look

I don't think the Others are Sauron and the men will end up united against them. And will defeat them in the mother of wars. If anything GRRM is anti war. Little good did they achieved in Planetos history.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Was ironic of me. I've no complaint with prophecies and gods intervention or big magic. Each one his/her taste:D

But contrary to Tolkien, GRRM is not cardboard good versus evil. Rarely, things are like they look

I don't think the Others are Sauron and the men will end up united against them. And will defeat them in the mother of wars. If anything GRRM is anti war. Little good did they achieved in Planetos history.

Tolkien can get pretty grey; Denethor and Gollum in the Lord of the Rings proper. Thorin from The Hobbit as well (both book and film versions) has a horrible case of greed. And that's not going into The Silmarillion where there are plenty of grey characters to go around, where there are plenty of characters fighting against a great evil (Sauron's boss Morgoth) yet are perfectly willing to backstab their erstwhile allies if it gets in the way of regaining their family jewels taken by Morgoth. Martin could make a pretty good adaptation of The Children of Hurin, where its main hero Hurin, an expy of Kullervo, is arrogant, brooding, possesses a violent temper, and marries his sister to boot (they'd never met before). Tolkien could get pretty anti-war as well: In The Children of Hurin, Turin's warlike ways are contrasted with the secrecy of the Elven city of Nargothrond. Turin convinces the Elves to abandon their secrecy and engage in large-scale warfare; Morgoth finds them, and sends the dragon Glaurung to take Nargothrond. And take it he does, with Turin's friend being killed and their mutual love interest getting captured and executed by Orcs.

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8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tolkien can get pretty grey

Sauron was not evil before being corrupted by Morgoth, Saruman before being corrupted by the one ring. Boromir briefly too. Galadriel did not succumb to the ring, but she shares responsibility in the Noldor banishment. Thingol was an asshole...

Not everyone is born full black or white, or do not evolve during life. But some become black without any excuse for it, without other purpose than doing ill, while others stay white beyond sainthood, whatever happen to them.

D&D did it wrong. But I don't think everyone will think Dany evil by the end. GRRM has some cardboard evils like Ramsay or Euron, smart and conscientiously doing evil. But it's the exception while IMO it's rather the norm for Tolkien. It's the feel of the story anyway. Difficult with GRRM to point exactly when the things gone wrong.

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I'd quit reading? There's only so much "subversion" I can take, lol.

On a serious note though, in the show world it means the North gets wiped out by the White Walkers I presume, as Jon was the one who convinced Dany to help fight them.

In hindsight, did Jon's death and resurrection have any significance in the show?

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