How much does the North spends on importing food

[Mrstrategy]

How much does the North spends on importing food from the South and Essos for winter?

[Anthony Appleyard]

It is unlikely that the shipping technology of the time would let a nation of The North import by sea a largish proportion of its food needs, particularly to areas a long way from a seaport.  

[Hugorfonics]

20 bucks

[Lord Lannister]

The North seems large enough to be self sufficient. Plenty of places to hunt, fish, gather food, plant crops and so on. Especially given they have a comparatively smallish population for the size of all that land. 

[The Jingo]

Tree fiddy.,

It's probably a decent amount but not an overwhelming amount. If the North was wholly dependent on food imports then there never would have been a King in the North. But at the same time, food limitations beyond a certain point would explain why the North could only ever become a middling power.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 5/27/2021 at 10:33 PM, Mrstrategy said:

How much does the North spends on importing food from the South and Essos for winter?

The more able houses like the Manderlys would purchase and import goods from other places.  The less able bought what little they could and made do.  

The long winter is a different matter.  But then, wights have little need of imported food.  They make do with each other.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 5/27/2021 at 10:33 PM, Mrstrategy said:

How much does the North spends on importing food from the South and Essos for winter?

Given that the Bowen Marsh mentions at some point that the NW buys supplies that come up the KR, I'd imagine not much. The north is basically the only place close enough to send food supplies to the NW by land and that requires 'export' of it from the North. OTOH if the winter gets bad enough, we've seen several times where they are gifted food from the IT. They might buy it from Braavos or the Vale but it wouldn't be much. Winter storms are very bad in the narrow sea and it would take a massive fleet to feed even a small portion of the north like WH.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

I imagine hunting plays into it a lot and so does cattle husbandry. there are a decent amount of species that specialize in digging into snow to get to grass. even if there isn't a lot of farming agriculture, there is grass frozen under the snow. a single deer can last a long time if salted properly, and the average size pig is like forty individual meals. Long lake also had plenty of fish before stannis and his army fished it to death. you can also get pliantly of essential vitamins from these foods. if they have cows of similar specialization to the mountain clan destriers, then we can expect that they have milk in good supply as well.

then again the snows get up to forty feet somehow in the winters, so who the hell know how anything survives. food caravans definitely rant getting through easily either though.

cannibalism is also probably more common an option than we think 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I imagine hunting plays into it a lot and so does cattle husbandry. there are a decent amount of species that specialize in digging into snow to get to grass. even if there isn't a lot of farming agriculture, there is grass frozen under the snow. a single deer can last a long time if salted properly, and the average size pig is like forty individual meals. Long lake also had plenty of fish before stannis and his army fished it to death. you can also get pliantly of essential vitamins from these foods. if they have cows of similar specialization to the mountain clan destriers, then we can expect that they have milk in good supply as well.

then again the snows get up to forty feet somehow in the winters, so who the hell know how anything survives. food caravans definitely rant getting through easily either though.

cannibalism is also probably more common an option than we think 

Long lake still has plenty of fish in it presumably. The crofters village is pretty far from there and it has two smaller lakes on either side of it.

[SeanF]

Wine, spices, citrus fruits, sugar, rum, pear brandy, olives, almonds, dates, figs, raisins, would all be imported into the North for sale to the better off and innkeeps.

In all likelihood, large quantities of corn and salted meat would be imported as staples, as well.  The North is likely to be self-sufficient in winter vegetables, ale, dairy products, eggs oats, fish, and game. I expect that meat (other than rabbits, pork or bacon) is very much a luxury item in the North, and that for most people, livestock are far more valuable for producing wool, eggs, milk etc. than for meat.

[Leonardo]

They don’t spend any. They don’t need to and never have. The north is huge and they have their own ways of dealing with Winter. We have one recorded instance of it happening and it was a particularly brutal winter under Cretan Stark during the reign of the Old king. They do normal trade and nothing more. House Manderly would be the only house to do it in any case and they’re going to stock up BEFORE winter, not during unless they messed up or winter is surprisingly long compared to summer.

[The Young Maester]

In the Middle Ages importing food wasnt a frequent thing. Food was too precious to export to a different kingdom. Their was the looming possibility of a famine or a bad harvest happening, so you needed all the food you can harvest.

Only sort of trade that existed was distribution of food from the villages and farmers to the towns and cities. But moving food outside the kingdom wasnt something done very often, especially since the demand locally was always high.

The north importing food and distributing it to its vast kingdom is a logistical nightmare. Plus you require the kind of centralisation that neither Westeros or the Middle Ages haven’t seen since the renaissance era. As someone pointed out, it’s possible only white harbour imported it (which would be rare since they seem to have good farming land).

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Leonardo said:

They don’t spend any. They don’t need to and never have. The north is huge and they have their own ways of dealing with Winter. We have one recorded instance of it happening and it was a particularly brutal winter under Cretan Stark during the reign of the Old king. They do normal trade and nothing more. House Manderly would be the only house to do it in any case and they’re going to stock up BEFORE winter, not during unless they messed up or winter is surprisingly long compared to summer.

People drinking wine and eating meat seasoned with spices,  above the salt at Winterfell, and other Northern centres, won't be relying upon local produce.  The North will import any food that can be preserved because it makes sense for them to do so.  In times of famine, the old go out to die in "hunting trips" but they want to avoid that if possible.

 

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

In the Middle Ages importing food wasnt a frequent thing. Food was too precious to export to a different kingdom. Their was the looming possibility of a famine or a bad harvest happening, so you needed all the food you can harvest.

Only sort of trade that existed was distribution of food from the villages and farmers to the towns and cities. But moving food outside the kingdom wasnt something done very often, especially since the demand locally was always high.

The north importing food and distributing it to its vast kingdom is a logistical nightmare. Plus you require the kind of centralisation that neither Westeros or the Middle Ages haven’t seen since the renaissance era. As someone pointed out, it’s possible only white harbour imported it (which would be rare since they seem to have good farming land).

Importing any kind of food that could be preserved, as well as alcohol and spices, was a very big thing in medieval Europe.  Gascon wine exports to England were huge, and Spanish and Rhenish exports were substantial.

[The Young Maester]

34 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Importing any kind of food that could be preserved, as well as alcohol and spices, was a very big thing in medieval Europe.  Gascon wine exports to England were huge, and Spanish and Rhenish exports were substantial.

Luxurious food for aristocrats, courtiers, merchants, and possibly castle servants. Not for the typical smallfolk.

Peasants didn’t eat meat and fish on a daily basis. It was treated as a special type food for them. Reason why so many nobleman were so big physically was due to them eating meat and fish everyday. Peasants relied on stew, it was super cheap since most of it was just water.

As I said the people relied on locally farmed food not foreign.

You pointed out that spices and wine were regularly traded. But that’s only thing you mentioned and this is because these things were only for the rich.

One thing you’ll notice if you look up is that population sizes and densities in England stayed relatively the same between 1200s till 1700s. I believe it was from 2 million to 5 million. It wasnt until the industrial revolution where new farming techniques were learned and food from far away colonies were imported in order to feed the booming population (e.g. Indian harvests being transported in mass to Britain).

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Luxurious food for aristocrats, courtiers, merchants, and possibly castle servants. Not for the typical smallfolk.

Peasants didn’t eat meat and fish on a daily basis. It was treated as a special type food for them. Reason why so many nobleman were so big physically was due to them eating meat and fish everyday. Peasants relied on stew, it was super cheap since most of it was just water.

As I said the people relied on locally farmed food not foreign.

You pointed out that spices and wine were regularly traded. But that’s only thing you mentioned and this is because these things were only for the rich.

One thing you’ll notice if you look up is that population sizes and densities in England stayed relatively the same between 1200s till 1700s. I believe it was from 2 million to 5 million. It wasnt until the industrial revolution where new farming techniques were learned and food from far away colonies were imported in order to feed the booming population (e.g. Indian harvests being transported in mass to Britain).

The poor would not drink wine, but wine drinking went a long way beyond the rich.  Taverners imported wine in bulk.  Spices were used as preservatives, as well as for seasoning,   Staples,, such as corn, flour, meat, fish, could be preserved in salt, and were usually imported either in times of famine, or for stockpiling.  These were all big business, not niche markets.

The North is the sort of place where the peasants could not necessarily rely upon an abundance of crops and fruit, and where imports of food would make sense.

[The Young Maester]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The poor would not drink wine, but wine drinking went a long way beyond the rich.  Taverners imported wine in bulk.  Spices were used as preservatives, as well as for seasoning,   Staples,, such as corn, flour, meat, fish, could be preserved in salt, and were usually imported either in times of famine, or for stockpiling.  These were all big business, not niche markets.

Salt isn’t a spice. Salt mines were quite common in Europe, therefore the price for salt was cheap (for a time). 

No the poor drank ale and mead (beer). Taverns and pubs had wine but you wouldn’t see a peasant walk into a tavern and ask for some wine. Tourney knights were more likely to drink wine in a tavern.

The fact is that ale was easily made and you had a brewery in every corner of the kingdom. Therefore there is a bountiful supply of it available due to its cheaper origin. Wine in the other hand mostly came from other regions or kingdoms and was sold for allot especially due to the travel costs merchants had to experience, plus its high luxury status.

Salt is a much cheaper alternative to spices. Spices were seen as an expensive and very foreign good. Their is a reason why peasants never had access to it. And that is because merchants had to embark on dangerous voyages in order to buy and sell the spices. Look at How America was discovered. They wanted to search for an alternative sea route to the Indian Ocean, because it would make transporting exotic goods like silk, and spices cheaper.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The North is the sort of place where the peasants could not necessarily rely upon an abundance of crops and fruit, and where imports of food would make sense.

Why is that? During summer they seem to be doing fine when farming and harvesting their crops. Why would they import fruits for meagre peasants? Fruits were a luxury not a necessity.

According to the books the north seems to have a very small population density, and a farmable land the size of Europe. So you have a population of possibly the size of medieval England living in a land the size of all of Europe. And saying the north has a population the size of medieval England is very generous if one looks at the books.

[SeanF]

45 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Salt isn’t a spice. Salt mines were quite common in Europe, therefore the price for salt was cheap (for a time). 

No the poor drank ale and mead (beer). Taverns and pubs had wine but you wouldn’t see a peasant walk into a tavern and ask for some wine. Tourney knights were more likely to drink wine in a tavern.

The fact is that ale was easily made and you had a brewery in every corner of the kingdom. Therefore there is a bountiful supply of it available due to its cheaper origin. Wine in the other hand mostly came from other regions or kingdoms and was sold for allot especially due to the travel costs merchants had to experience, plus its high luxury status.

Salt is a much cheaper alternative to spices. Spices were seen as an expensive and very foreign good. Their is a reason why peasants never had access to it. And that is because merchants had to embark on dangerous voyages in order to buy and sell the spices. Look at How America was discovered. They wanted to search for an alternative sea route to the Indian Ocean, because it would make transporting exotic goods like silk, and spices cheaper.

Why is that? During summer they seem to be doing fine when farming and harvesting their crops. Why would they import fruits for meagre peasants? Fruits were a luxury not a necessity.

According to the books the north seems to have a very small population density, and a farmable land the size of Europe. So you have a population of possibly the size of medieval England living in a land the size of all of Europe. And saying the north has a population the size of medieval England is very generous if one looks at the books.

Citrus fruits were a luxury.  Fruits like apples, pears, plums were eaten by all classes.  We know that famine is an issue in the North, because old Norrey talks of clansmen going out to die in the snow.  Sometimes there are dreadful winters, such as when Creggan Stark brought his soldiers South, and the time Aegon V sent food North.

Here is a good article dealing with the trade in food between England and Gascony.  https://www.british-history.ac.uk/manchester-uni/london-lay-subsidy/1332/pp256-311.  Basically, Gascony sold huge quantities of wine to England, along with salt.  But, it could not grow enough corn to support its population, so it imported corn, plus herrings and dried fish from England.  

The North would not export food, but would likely export large amounts of timber and pitch, both vital for shipbuilding. Amber, furs, and skins might also be among their exports. Food and alcohol would be both consumed and sold at fairs in White Harbour and the main settlements. I don't doubt that locally produced ale and mead would be the main staples in the North, but imported wine should be consumed too.  Lords would not be importing food out of the kindness of their hearts, in most cases, but to keep their taxpayers and soldiers alive.

[The Young Maester]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Citrus fruits were a luxury.  Fruits like apples, pears, plums were eaten by all classes.

No, because these only grew in southern Italy, parts of Spain, and North Africa. The only sweet food peasants had were probably more accessible things like berries and strawberries. 

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

We know that famine is an issue in the North, because old Norrey talks of clansmen going out to die in the snow.  Sometimes there are dreadful winters, such as when Creggan Stark brought his soldiers South, and the time Aegon V sent food North.

Famine has been an issue throughout the Middle Ages for a very long time. We haven’t heard of famines in the south but I wouldn’t be surprised if they happened. And if they didn’t, than it just highlights Georges lack of worldbuilding.

Aegon provided them food with his own coffers.  This already shows that they are unable to buy foreign food with their own money. 

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Here is a good article dealing with the trade in food between England and Gascony.  https://www.british-history.ac.uk/manchester-uni/london-lay-subsidy/1332/pp256-311.  Basically, Gascony sold huge quantities of wine to England, along with salt.  But, it could not grow enough corn to support its population, so it imported corn, plus herrings and dried fish from England.

Yes Gascony was the property of king Edward during the Hundred Years’ War. Which is something that needs to be noted, because I very much doubt trade would be happening between the dukedom and the other french counties. So naturally the kingdom of England will supply one of its territories with what it needs since the french neighbours aren’t likely to do so due to both kingdoms being at war.

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

The North would not export food, but would likely export large amounts of timber and pitch, both vital for shipbuilding. Amber, furs, and skins might also be among their exports. Food and alcohol would be both consumed and sold at fairs in White Harbour and the main settlements. I don't doubt that locally produced ale and mead would be the main staples in the North, but imported wine should be consumed too.  Lords would not be importing food out of the kindness of their hearts, in most cases, but to keep their taxpayers and soldiers alive.

The lords have little influence over trade. Merchants are the ones that act upon what is the demand and if their is a profit to be made. This is why town centres and markets exist in every corner, and it’s also why every village will have some town or market town nearby. Which for some odd reason dosent exist in Westeros because Martin :/. Which baffles me because a society like Westeros wouldn’t be able to function without a marketplace/town.

And as I said the lord of winterfell dosent respond to trade. It happens naturally, a woods cutter will cut down timber and prepare it so he can sell it to people. He might sell it to some builders, villagers, or a local lord. Sometimes a merchant will come and buy some, this merchant will afterwards take it and sell it somewhere like bravos because he will make a good profit. Therefore lords don’t do these things, they aren’t responsible for ensuring the goods produced in their lands are going to where they want it because they don’t own the merchants. The merchants are independent money makers.

You can see the parallels between our world also. Governments don’t engage on trade unless it involves government property e.g. Norway buying missiles from the US.

So companies/merchants act upon trade themselves, they buy foreign goods they need in order to sell their products in certain countries, the government/ the lords don’t do this for them it’s the people themselves that do it.

[Zeed]

21 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Which for some odd reason dosent exist in Westeros

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ashford

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tumbleton

At least on the wiki, both cities are referred to as market towns. As far as I remember, King's Landing, Winterfell/Wintertown and Oldtown are also cited as having market squares.

[The Young Maester]

1 hour ago, Zeed said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ashford

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tumbleton

At least on the wiki, both cities are referred to as market towns. As far as I remember, King's Landing, Winterfell/Wintertown and Oldtown are also cited as having market squares.

Reread the sentence

22 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

This is why town centres and markets exist in every corner, and it’s also why every village will have some town or market town nearby.