Covid- Thank you, Next! Get out of our lives.

[rotting sea cow]

I had a depressing talk last night with a friend in Chile. He's in charge of a COVID testing unit and I've been passing him useful info (some provided by members in this forum) since last year.

Well, he was infected last week as well as some people in his team. Despite having the two shots of Pfizer and wearing protective equipment during their duties. They suspect they got infected in their own quarters by another team member. To be fair, he was like two days sick with headaches, nausea and light respiratory problems. He still feels fatigued a week after.

What he tells me is frightening. The situation is chaotic. Chile has been vaccinating a lot (almost 20 millions doses given already) mostly with Sinovac (about 90%) and Pfizer (10%) and smaller batches of other vaccines. In both cases they are seeing lots of breakthrough cases. He doesn't have stats obviously, so it's unclear how frequent is for each of the vaccines. There is supposed to be a report at some point. It seems however that vaccines are preventing hospitalizations as ICUs are overwhelmingly used by unvaccinated. They have lots of reinfections too. They blame the Brazilian gamma variant but now they learned there is that Andean lambda variant. Even the very contagious British alpha variant seems to be unable to gain hold.

He says the virus is changing. Before they could "smell" the virus and reconstruct transmission chains, now it seems to be everywhere and popping out of nowhere. Lots of asymptomatic people and lots of 40 years olds as sick as the 60 year olds of yesteryear. They are also seeing kids very sick.

He is depressed and angry. Angry at the people who wear masks everywhere but then they meet at home to watch football. Angry at the government for being criminally inept. Angry at the World for letting this scourge loose over the world. He is exhausted too. They are at the breaking point.

So, why I'm telling you this? We are far from done with it. Get you vaccine ASAP (I should look myself what it's going on with my appointments) but do not believe that you are bulletproof against the new circulating variants. Be careful and watchful and avoid unnecessary risks. Expect a chaotic Autumn but maybe even a chaotic summer.

[HoodedCrow]

@Leap I heard of a study in which long haulers improve after a vaccine( isawagi, from Yale?) but I failed to save it, because the short article did not name the vaccine.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I find it hilarious when people use this excuse because 99.999999% of them also have a cellphone. 

Yup.  And/or use social media.  That indeed shows a lack of critical thinking and I would not hire an associate that mentioned this “theory” in an interview.  

[Luzifer's right hand]

42 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I had a depressing talk last night with a friend in Chile. He's in charge of a COVID testing unit and I've been passing him useful info (some provided by members in this forum) since last year.

Well, he was infected last week as well as some people in his team. Despite having the two shots of Pfizer and wearing protective equipment during their duties. They suspect they got infected in their own quarters by another team member. To be fair, he was like two days sick with headaches, nausea and light respiratory problems. He still feels fatigued a week after.

What he tells me is frightening. The situation is chaotic. Chile has been vaccinating a lot (almost 20 millions doses given already) mostly with Sinovac (about 90%) and Pfizer (10%) and smaller batches of other vaccines. In both cases they are seeing lots of breakthrough cases. He doesn't have stats obviously, so it's unclear how frequent is for each of the vaccines. There is supposed to be a report at some point. It seems however that vaccines are preventing hospitalizations as ICUs are overwhelmingly used by unvaccinated. They have lots of reinfections too. They blame the Brazilian gamma variant but now they learned there is that Andean lambda variant. Even the very contagious British alpha variant seems to be unable to gain hold.

He says the virus is changing. Before they could "smell" the virus and reconstruct transmission chains, now it seems to be everywhere and popping out of nowhere. Lots of asymptomatic people and lots of 40 years olds as sick as the 60 year olds of yesteryear. They are also seeing kids very sick.

He is depressed and angry. Angry at the people who wear masks everywhere but then they meet at home to watch football. Angry at the government for being criminally inept. Angry at the World for letting this scourge loose over the world. He is exhausted too. They are at the breaking point.

So, why I'm telling you this? We are far from done with it. Get you vaccine ASAP (I should look myself what it's going on with my appointments) but do not believe that you are bulletproof against the new circulating variants. Be careful and watchful and avoid unnecessary risks. Expect a chaotic Autumn but maybe even a chaotic summer.

Anyone who thought that it is over either has an agenda, is uneducated or an optimist. The same group of people that make fighting climate change as good as impossible fuck things up pandemic wise.

[JoannaL]

29 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I had a depressing talk last night with a friend in Chile. He's in charge of a COVID testing unit and I've been passing him useful info (some provided by members in this forum) since last year.

Well, he was infected last week as well as some people in his team. Despite having the two shots of Pfizer and wearing protective equipment during their duties. They suspect they got infected in their own quarters by another team member. To be fair, he was like two days sick with headaches, nausea and light respiratory problems. He still feels fatigued a week after.

What he tells me is frightening. The situation is chaotic. Chile has been vaccinating a lot (almost 20 millions doses given already) mostly with Sinovac (about 90%) and Pfizer (10%) and smaller batches of other vaccines. In both cases they are seeing lots of breakthrough cases. He doesn't have stats obviously, so it's unclear how frequent is for each of the vaccines. There is supposed to be a report at some point. It seems however that vaccines are preventing hospitalizations as ICUs are overwhelmingly used by unvaccinated. They have lots of reinfections too. They blame the Brazilian gamma variant but now they learned there is that Andean lambda variant. Even the very contagious British alpha variant seems to be unable to gain hold.

He says the virus is changing. Before they could "smell" the virus and reconstruct transmission chains, now it seems to be everywhere and popping out of nowhere. Lots of asymptomatic people and lots of 40 years olds as sick as the 60 year olds of yesteryear. They are also seeing kids very sick.

He is depressed and angry. Angry at the people who wear masks everywhere but then they meet at home to watch football. Angry at the government for being criminally inept. Angry at the World for letting this scourge loose over the world. He is exhausted too. They are at the breaking point.

So, why I'm telling you this? We are far from done with it. Get you vaccine ASAP (I should look myself what it's going on with my appointments) but do not believe that you are bulletproof against the new circulating variants. Be careful and watchful and avoid unnecessary risks. Expect a chaotic Autumn but maybe even a chaotic summer.

The numbers are really depressing for a country which vaccinated that much. do we have reliable efficacy data for sinovac yet (actually we should its also on the market half a year or so?, but I dont remember seeing them). Perhaps its not working against the gamma variant? I think I read something about problems in indonesia with sinovac too? But there the delta variant should be the problem not gamma?

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Just now, JoannaL said:

The numbers are really depressing for a country which vaccinated that much. do we have reliable efficacy data for sinovac yet (actually we should its also on the market half a year or so?, but I dont remember seeing them). Perhaps its not working against the gamma variant? I think I read something about problems in indonesia with sinovac too? But there the delta variant should be the problem not gamma?

I thought I had read that Sinovac’s efficacy was actually not all that great in terms of suppressing infection (though reduced hospitalization significantly(, even against alpha (of course can’t remember where I read that), so this is not out of line with what I would have expected.  

Globally, I agree that this is far from over.  I think we need to be doing a lot more to distribute vaccines globally and also to continue (if we are lucky enough to live in countries with good access) continuing vaccination drives.  Country by country I think this is more nuanced, particularly given human behavior in general.

[Fragile Bird]

A story just popped up on my Facebook page out of Indonesia saying hundreds (more than 500, iirc) of doctors and nurses in Indonesia who were double-vaccinated with Sinovac have been infected with Covid-19 and many are seriously ill.

I just tried searching on Google for the story but I can't seem to find the right key words for today's story to come up.

In the meantime, two people have died in Calgary, Alberta, from the Delta variant, and one was double vaccinated, though I don't see what vaccine they had. The other person was unvaccinated. The Calgary Foothills hospital has had a Delta outbreak. There's also a Delta outbreak in a city near Toronto, called Waterloo, which is very worrisome. A lot of people commute to Toronto from the Kitchener-Waterloo area for work.

Quote

A total of 21 patients in two wards at the Foothills Medical Centre have contracted COVID-19, 17 of whom have contracted the variant. Nine staff members, six of whom have contracted the Delta strain, have also tested positive, said Williamson.

A total of six patients and five workers who have tested positive for the variant were fully immunized with two doses of vaccine, while eight patients and one worker had received one dose. Three patients were not immunized.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/province-records-two-deaths-related-to-delta-variant-at-foothills-medical-centre-outbreak

[Zorral]

This thing about understanding the point of views that hurt me held by such people about everything from hatred, bigotry, cruelty, selfishness, greed, desire for violence, not to mention climate change? 

"Understanding" where they are coming from doesn't stop them from continuing to hold those views which in their minds justify hurting me, who doesn't hold those views, or who isn't the right gender. Or just for funsies, and I'm supposed to know it just a joke, is the excuse.

I join with Rip in saying about them, because I won't even talk TO THEM:  "Eff off."

 

[TrueMetis]

4 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Here's the thing Luke, this line of thinking was fine in say February, but since then we've learned the vaccine is for the most part safe and effective while also learning younger people can catch the virus and it can have serious long term effects, and that furthermore, you're far more likely to die from the virus than from the vaccine. People saying they still have concerns and need to do more research probably haven't done any research and are just looking for what they think is the best excuse to not get the vaccine. 

My mother was hesitant on the vaccine until I got my first shot and described it as not being that bad. So I know people who were hesitant. But I do have to agree with this, if after so many months and knowing people who got the vaccine you're still hesitant, then you're just looking for excuses and kind of an asshole besides.

 

Man fuck Andrew Wakefield.

[Week]

Ayup.

 

[Fragile Bird]

I meant to mention yesterday that after the Curevac announcement their stock price fell more than 50%, to less than $50. It’s making a bit of a recovery today, almost back up to $55. It had been $125 as recently as June 7.

[DireWolfSpirit]

A lot of my parents friends (mostly seniors, some midage) were told they needed to have the vaccine before they could get various medical treatments. This resulted in many getting the jab who may have otherwise sat on the sideline.

I was very encouraged that those h health providers were taking that stand and I wish it was widespread and a prevalent  practice.

Unfortunately since then I've met many covid deniers who have been to the hospitals for various appointments even though they are unvaxxed. That's unfortunate as I feel these professionals should be pressuring all patients to get the shot if they want to get other treatments, it's not happening in our area, I made a point of noting the people getting checkups and so forth even though they haven't had the shot. According to some the HC providers haven't even been prompting them or talking to them to get the shot either. That's a problem imo.

If you are unvaccinated imo you shouldn't be allowed in a medical establishment for your other bullshit.

P.s. Another covid denier mysteriously dissapeared from work for about a month, he's back and claiming he had some horrible malady that really knocked him back. He's unsure what it was but he's certain it wasnt covid.....cuz reasons....fuckn bulkshitting liar jump through hoops to continue your denial.

[Fragile Bird]

Just now, DireWolfSpirit said:

A lot of my parents friends (mostly seniors, some midage) were told they needed to have the vaccine before they could get various medical treatments. This resulted in many getting the jab who may have otherwise sat on the sideline.

I was very encouraged that those h health providers were taking that stand and I wish it was widespread and a prevalent  practice.

Unfortunately since then I've met many covid deniers who have been to the hospitals for various appointments even though they are unvaxxed. That's unfortunate as I feel these professionals should be pressuring all patients to get the shot if they want to get other treatments, it's not happening in our area, I made a point of noting the people getting checkups and so forth even though they haven't had the shot. According to some the HC providers haven't even been prompting them or talking to them to get the shot either. That's a problem imo.

If you are unvaccinated imo you shouldn't be allowed in a medical establishment for your other bullshit.

Here in Ontario they have only been doing screening at hospitals, asking the usual questions about any illness and whether you’ve travelled or have been in contact with someone with Covid-19. However, to receive treatment you get tested and you don’t get that treatment unless your test is negative. People I know who were having surgery, even cancer surgery, were told that if they caught Covid they would not get their surgery until they tested negative. 

[Zorral]

Those who have had covid should get vaccinated because prior infection is not insurance against suffering a recurrance of covid, which appears to be more likely with the variants. So far though -- digits crossed! -- both Pfizer and Moderna have been holding strong again the later variants -- though, of course, with new ones emerging all the time, for how long? This study is small, however.  But we certainly do know this thing is years from being over, if ever, as long as so many are not and never will be vaccinated.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-prior-coronavirus-infection-may-not-protect-long-term/

 

Quote

 

Latest coronavirus news as of 5pm on 17 June
A small study suggests previous coronavirus infection doesn’t necessarily provide long-lasting immune responses

People who have been previously tested positive for the coronavirus may not be protected against becoming infected again, as the coronavirus doesn’t necessarily trigger long-lasting immune responses, according to a small, preliminary study. “In our view, previous infection does not necessarily protect you long-term from SARS-CoV-2, particularly variants of concern,” said Eleanor Barnes at the University of Oxford, one of the senior authors on the study. “You shouldn’t depend on it to protect you from subsequent disease, you should be vaccinated,” Barnes told the Guardian.

Barnes and colleagues looked at blood samples from 78 healthcare workers who tested positive for the coronavirus between April and June 2020. Of the 78 study participants, 66 had a symptomatic infection while 12 had an asymptomatic infection. The blood samples were taken monthly for up to six months after their infection and were analysed for a range of immune responses. 

The analysis revealed that six months after infection the majority of the healthcare workers who had experienced a symptomatic coronavirus infection had a detectable immune response. However, more than a quarter didn’t – and of those participants that had an asymptomatic coronavirus infection, 91.7 per cent had no detectable antibodies that could neutralise the alpha variant of the coronavirus, which was prevalent at the time of the study. None had detectable levels of antibodies that could neutralise the beta variant. The study didn’t look at the delta variant, now dominant in the UK....

 

 

[williamjm]

2 hours ago, L'oiseau français said:

A story just popped up on my Facebook page out of Indonesia saying hundreds (more than 500, iirc) of doctors and nurses in Indonesia who were double-vaccinated with Sinovac have been infected with Covid-19 and many are seriously ill.

I just tried searching on Google for the story but I can't seem to find the right key words for today's story to come up.

I saw that earlier, see here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/jun/17/coronavirus-live-news-tokyo-plans-to-lift-emergency-before-olympics-germanys-curevac-jab-shows-47-efficacy?page=with:block-60caf40c8f08d12b4aec5d60#block-60caf40c8f08d12b4aec5d60

More than 350 Indonesian doctors have contracted Covid-19 despite being vaccinated with Sinovac and dozens have been hospitalised, officials said, as concerns rise about the efficacy of some vaccines against more virulent virus strains.

Most of the doctors were asymptomatic and self-isolating at home, said Badai Ismoyo, head of the Kudus district health office in Central Java, but dozens were in hospital with high fevers and declining oxygen saturation levels.

Almost all have received the vaccine developed by China’s Sinovac, according to the Indonesian Medical Association (IDI).

It seems quite lacking in details, in particular 350 out of how many doctors in total? Is this for all of Indonesia, in which case I'd imagine there are a huge number of doctors for 270 million people?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Yup.  And/or use social media.  That indeed shows a lack of critical thinking and I would not hire an associate that mentioned this “theory” in an interview.  

What answer would be okay for you outside of a medical condition in which the potential hire has seen a doctor over?

[Mudguard]

40 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Those who have had covid should get vaccinated because prior infection is not insurance against suffering a recurrance of covid, which appears to be more likely with the variants. So far though -- digits crossed! -- both Pfizer and Moderna have been holding strong again the later variants -- though, of course, with new ones emerging all the time, for how long? This study is small, however.  But we certainly do know this thing is years from being over, if ever, as long as so many are not and never will be vaccinated.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-prior-coronavirus-infection-may-not-protect-long-term/

 

 

I think it's safe to assume that if you've had a case of symptomatic Covid, you have a good level of protection against at least the variant that you were infected with, and likely decent protection against severe symptoms to many of variants of concern.  The study you reference (which is both small and hasn't been peer reviewed) measured antibody levels, which decrease over time after both infection and vaccination.  This is completely normal and expected.  Normally, even after circulating antibody levels have dropped to very low or even undetectable levels, a person that has recovered from symptomatic infection or that has been vaccinated will have memory B cells (that produce antibodies) and memory T cells (that help augment the immune response) that can recognize the antigen and can quickly mount a strong immune response to prevent at least severe disease.  I'm not going to lose sleep over whether these people get vaccinated or not, and it would actually be better to give the vaccine to someone that hasn't been exposed to the virus.

Asymptomatic infection is another story.  A very mild infection may not have triggered the immune response to generate memory B cells and memory T cells, so these people definitely need to get vaccinated, unless they've actually had their antibody levels against SARS-Cov-2 measured and found that they have a high level of neutralizing antibody.

The problem with variants is a problem to both groups.  As the virus picks up more and more mutations, the immunity from vaccines and prior infection is likely to get worse and worse.  Luckily, it will be relatively easy to generate booster shots tailored to the new variants, if needed.  Like the influenza vaccine, these booster shots can be developed and given without conducting time consuming clinical trials.  It's likely that Pfizer, Moderna, and the others have already designed the new booster shots, which is relatively trivial now that these new vaccine platforms have been validated, and can immediately start production the moment it's decided that boosters are needed.

[Zorral]

30 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

The problem with variants is a problem to both groups.  As the virus picks up more and more mutations, the immunity from vaccines and prior infection is likely to get worse and worse.  Luckily, it will be relatively easy to generate booster shots tailored to the new variants, if needed.  Like the influenza vaccine, these booster shots can be developed and given without conducting time consuming clinical trials.  It's likely that Pfizer, Moderna, and the others have already designed the new booster shots, which is relatively trivial now that these new vaccine platforms have been validated, and can immediately start production the moment it's decided that boosters are needed.

I keep hoping this is the case, and that I'll be able to schedule a booster in the fall, right along with the flu shot, without anxiety or waiting.

Ya, I know about that hope that springs eternal etc.  

[Clueless Northman]

Pfizer or Moderna, if not both, are on record testing their vaccine to check if a modification to make it a booster shot is required for now, and they've been ready to do it since the Kent variant appeared.

 

As for who wants the vaccine or doesn't give a fuck, well, let's be honest, this entire pandemic has been a test of people's behaviour. It's nature's way of merely asking people: Are you a fucking sociopath, yes or no?

 

14 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

I know 4 people who've been hospitalised by the vaccine, 5 women who's periods have completely stopped since taking the vaccine, countless others who've just become completely lethargic since having jt.

No disrespect to your friends, but when reading this, I have to wonder if a few might just tell pure BS because of ideological bias against vaccine. At least, statistically, this sounds nearly as far-fetched as winning the lottery. I would indeed assume that some might have side-effects of the vaccine. Yet since it's UK and delta variant is wrecking havoc even to people who already had 1 dose of AZ, I would seriously suspect a few of them of having genuinely caught covid. Then, there's also the worrying long covid, which can even hurt people who had a fully asymptomatic run and might not have any trace of infection left in them - and long covid appears under plenty of very different nasty or obnoxious effects.

[Mudguard]

13 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I keep hoping this is the case, and that I'll be able to schedule a booster in the fall, right along with the flu shot, without anxiety or waiting.

Ya, I know about that hope that springs eternal etc.  

I should have also said though that supply issues might cause delays with the booster rollout.  If Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, J&J, etc. are still producing the Gen 1 vaccine for the rest of the world when the call for boosters is made, then they may have very little capacity to produce the booster shots.  Could be another situation of paying to move to the front of the line.