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DireWolfSpirit

Covid- Thank you, Next! Get out of our lives.

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26 minutes ago, Kal Corp said:

Other than not having any sympathy for anyone who doesn't get vaccinated?

Yep. No sympathy. Sympathy for their situations in general? Absolutely, there's a reason I've always voted Democratic. Sympathy for this particular thing? Nope.

You don't even need vaccine appointments anymore, they're all walk-ins at this point. People have had months now to find out where the closest place to them that has doses is. This is important enough that it's worth stopping by the Wendy's parking lot to grab wifi after work some night, or going to the public library on an off day, or whatever it takes. Even just calling up the Oregon Health Authority at this point, they  have the info too and if you're poor and on Medicaid you have that number.

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18 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

You could also get hit by lightning so yeah good idea, stay indoors.

For the record, I do realise that we are fortunate to be able to go on being careful in comfort. (Though we have certainly not been taking as as far as "staying indoors"!)

However I would say that the estimate of the chance of a fully vaccinated person needing hospitalisation when they get Covid still has large error bars, but is certainly orders of magnitude greater than that of being hit by lightning. Possibly when those error bars get smaller, after we have a few more weeks of data, we might reconsider, especially if the estimate comes down further.

And of course the implicit plan is to let the virus run through the population! Given that the return to normality has been declared "irreversible", and that the test and trace system is still pretty useless, I cannot see how anyone could possibly claim otherwise. Indeed, you admit as much with your "the virus is never going away".

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Just now, Fez said:

Yep. No sympathy. Sympathy for their situations in general? Absolutely, there's a reason I've always voted Democratic. Sympathy for this particular thing? Nope.

You don't even need vaccine appointments anymore, they're all walk-ins at this point. People have had months now to find out where the closest place to them that has doses is. This is important enough that it's worth stopping by the Wendy's parking lot to grab wifi after work some night, or going to the public library on an off day, or whatever it takes. Even just calling up the Oregon Health Authority at this point, they  have the info too and if you're poor and on Medicaid you have that number.

Again, if you can't afford to take the time off from the side effects, it doesn't matter how convenient those shots are to get. That's a day of work you can't afford to lose. 

And per the above, that's precisely one of the big barriers - that people can literally not afford to miss work. 

Definitely shame them for not wanting to lose their jobs or get evicted though, I bet that'll definitely convince 'em

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Fez said:

You don't even need vaccine appointments anymore, they're all walk-ins at this point. People have had months now to find out where the closest place to them that has doses is.

How often do you need to be informed that just isn't possible in large swathes of the US, particularly if one doesn't have a car?  Or your car is a junker, hardly runs, and you don't have money for gas?  Do have ANY idea at all for how many people this is the case?  ANY IDEA?  Particularly migrant workers who follows all these harvests, legally?

I'd really thought better of you than this until now.

 

 

Edited by Zorral

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1 minute ago, Kal Corp said:

Again, if you can't afford to take the time off from the side effects, it doesn't matter how convenient those shots are to get. That's a day of work you can't afford to lose. 

As reasons for not get vaccinated go that’s a pretty poor one. I’d say your chances of getting COVID are significantly higher than getting side effects from the vaccine so bad you literally can’t go into work. Yeah, you could get side effects that would make it pretty shitty to go into work but it’s not like you’re going to infect anyone else anyway. :dunno:

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5 minutes ago, A wilding said:

,,,the implicit plan is to let the virus run through the population!

Again with the herd immunity!  Again herd Immunity raises its head like a sea lion.  As the virus continues to variate, so there will never be herd immunity, which of course is a unicorn in the first place.  Feh.

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8 minutes ago, A wilding said:

For the record, I do realise that we are fortunate to be able to go on being careful in comfort. (Though we have certainly not been taking as as far as "staying indoors"!)

However I would say that the estimate of the chance of a fully vaccinated person needing hospitalisation when they get Covid still has large error bars, but is certainly orders of magnitude greater than that of being hit by lightning. Possibly when those error bars get smaller, after we have a few more weeks of data, we might reconsider, especially if the estimate comes down further.

And of course the implicit plan is to let the virus run through the population! Given that the return to normality has been declared "irreversible", and that the test and trace system is still pretty useless, I cannot see how anyone could possibly claim otherwise. Indeed, you admit as much with your "the virus is never going away".

You don’t have to answer but are there any special medical reasons which make you more concerned about the virus?

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1 minute ago, ljkeane said:

As reasons for not get vaccinated go that’s a pretty poor one. I’d say your chances of getting COVID are significantly higher than getting side effects from the vaccine so bad you literally can’t go into work. Yeah, you could get side effects that would make it pretty shitty to go into work but it’s not like you’re going to infect anyone else anyway. :dunno:

I wouldn't have been able get on the subway and go to work with my reaction to the second dose.  I was out for about 36 hours. Recovered quickly after that. And I was in situation of being well taken care of if I needed it, and had everything I needed, and was living comfortably.  Show me migrant workers picking your salad for whom that is the case.

 

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11 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

As reasons for not get vaccinated go that’s a pretty poor one. I’d say your chances of getting COVID are significantly higher than getting side effects from the vaccine so bad you literally can’t go into work. Yeah, you could get side effects that would make it pretty shitty to go into work but it’s not like you’re going to infect anyone else anyway. :dunno:

Every single person in my family had to take time off from work/school/whatever when they got at least one of the shots. Side effects are absurdly common, especially for older folks. And while your work might be super easy, try standing for 8 hours doing supermarket stocking and shelving and checking out when your entire body hurts. 

And you can tell them that it's a pretty unreasonable excuse, but it's one of the major reasons why minorities have so far said that they can't get it. Hell, these are a lot of the same populations who couldn't afford to get time off due to COVID and so went to work when they were sick. 

 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I wouldn't have been able get on the subway and go to work with my reaction to the second dose.  I was out for about 36 hours.

Ok, that’s a possibility, most people don’t get significant side effects at all. I’d suggest most people who do get flu like symptoms probably could go to work if they really had to (I know a few people who have).

But what’s the alternative? It doesn’t look like the US is going to get to a rate of vaccinated people close to that needed for something like herd immunity so it’s going to continue to spread. I think it’s fair to say if you don’t get vaccinated you’re probably going to catch COVID at some point as things continue to open up. What’s that five to seven days off work best case scenario?

Edited by ljkeane

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

What’s that five to seven days off work best case scenario?

The lettuce needs to be picked and shipped right now, not 5 - 7 days later.  Next worker!

Why yes, it sux big time to be a poor hourly wage worker.  Which is why we go to work sick, and infect more people.

And now, guess what, nice middle class young ladies drive all over Atlanta to All The Starbux, and still can't get their 3500 calorie sugar 12-ingredient tea drink, because, you know shortages in supply chains and shortages of labor.

Edited by Zorral

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2 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Ok, that’s a possibility, most people don’t get significant side effects at all. I’d suggest most people who do get flu like symptoms probably could go to work if they really had to (I know a few people who have).

But what’s the alternative? It doesn’t look like the US is going to get to a rate of vaccinated people close to that needed for something like herd immunity so it’s going to continue to spread. I think it’s fair to say if you don’t get vaccinated you’re probably going to catch COVID at some point as things continue to open up. What’s that five to seven days off work best case scenario?

Pay everyone for a day off work. I don't know why this is so absurdly hard to understand. 

Or if that doesn't work for you, pay people like $200 to get vaccinated. 

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3 minutes ago, Kal Corp said:

Pay everyone for a day off work. I don't know why this is so absurdly hard to understand. 

B-b-b-b-b-BECAUSE we don't KNOW how many heads of lettuce she would have picked that day and she gets paid piece work wages, and and and and you now want Them to get paid more not to work than to work.  $200 for a day off from the lettuces?  Are you kidding me??????

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Right.  People judge risk in a complicated way.  Surveys say that one in five employed adults who have not gotten a vaccine say they would be more inclined to do so if their employer gave them paid time off to get vaccinated and recover from side effects.   It is true that getting a bad dose of COVID could result in a bigger loss of work but the risk around the vaccine is more tangible.  It is something you actively do.   People are inclined to judge those sort of risks as more threatening.  Might never even get COVID!  (Although, yes, if they don't get vaccinated, very likely they will).

Mobile vaccination units would help a little.

1 hour ago, A wilding said:

And of course the implicit plan is to let the virus run through the population! Given that the return to normality has been declared "irreversible", and that the test and trace system is still pretty useless, I cannot see how anyone could possibly claim otherwise. Indeed, you admit as much with your "the virus is never going away".

What do you think is going to happen on the 21st June?

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I just had dinner with my friends, the husband who started chemo, the wife who got the AZ vaccine back in March and who just got the Moderna vaccine for her second shot on Tuesday.

She joked that her first shot was AZ and the first shot was supposed to be the worst (she was sick for two days) and now her second shot was Moderna and the Moderna second shot was supposed to be the worst. I told her that it was her first Moderna shot so maybe all would be fine. As it happens, all she felt was tiredness, like she was mildly hungover. 


My thesis is that the 21 and 28 day times are too soon after the first shots.

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5 hours ago, Padraig said:

What do you think is going to happen on the 21st June?

It’ll probably get delayed between two and four weeks I think. Also ‘letting it rip’ isn’t really the plan, the plan is to stop hospitals from getting over run, and whatever measures are needed to stop that, that’s what we’ll do. Timing is admittedly tricky here, but the vaccines are getting out quickly into a population with low vaccine hesitancy. It’s a winnable race.

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11 hours ago, A wilding said:

Basically, the unstated implicit policy now is to let the new Delta variant spread throughout the country unchecked, and to hope that the vaccinations are sufficient to prevent the hospitals being overwhelmed by cases, and that the death toll is not too bad. Personally, I think the we are screwed, and Mrs W and I are going to continue to stay more or less in lockdown mode despite having had both our jabs.

 

I see.

10 hours ago, Zorral said:

Again with the herd immunity!  Again herd Immunity raises its head like a sea lion.  As the virus continues to variate, so there will never be herd immunity, which of course is a unicorn in the first place.  Feh.

Well. It's supposed to be herd immunity with vaccines.

We need to admit we don't have a good solutions. Only those that are less bad. Lockdowns and other restrictions have been devastating and have hit the vulnerable the most.

Vaccines seems to be working, preventing mass infections, hospitalization and deaths. But plainly, a low level of infections (and subsequent hospitalizations and deaths) will continue to occur despite vaccines. What is the acceptable level? Is next winter going to be a normal flu-like one or another covid catastrophe? I think it's hard to say.

My opinion is people, yes even vaccinated people, need to exercise caution. Know they are protected but the real level of protection against rapidly spreading variants might be unknown.

There is urgent need of additional interventions, imho.

One. We need early care. Whatever medicine or treatment can be applied at home that reduces progression to the hospital. For obvious reasons it needs to be cheap, available and safe. I just saw the bad news that Aspirin failed to do a difference for hospitalized patients in the Recovery trial. But there is always talk of other things like high dose of Vit C & D.

Two. It need to be a push to get people in better health shape. We have all read about that a lot of the morbidity and mortality is due to comorbidities. Everybody with diabetes should get a treatment. Everybody with high pressure should get a treatment. Etc. Same with obesity and other conditions. 

Three. We need to improve ventilation and air quality in enclosed spaces. This will important for offices and schools and can reduce the burden of infections dramatically. 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Kal Corp said:

Pay everyone for a day off work. I don't know why this is so absurdly hard to understand. 

Or if that doesn't work for you, pay people like $200 to get vaccinated. 

Yes, yes and yes!

I can't fucking believe that it's not standard policy. It's again the typical insensitivity by our authorities. "Wait, people cannot take a day off if they feel sick? mind blowing!"

Last week I have to replace a colleague in a online conference of a project that I'm only tangentially involved. The guy was three days on sick leave after the vaccine. We have that privilege. Many others don't.

 

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9 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Yes, yes and yes!

I can't fucking believe that it's not standard policy. It's again the typical insensitivity by our authorities. "Wait, people cannot take a day off if they feel sick? mind blowing!"

Thats an US problem and it is mind blowing! Here everyone gets time off to get the vaccine and everyone gets paid sick leave (up to 6 weeks for whatever reason). the US really must reform their system. That takes time. But at least the US (if not the employer)  could pay in this case the sick leave after vaccination, if that would help with vaccine uptake.

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29 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Thats an US problem and it is mind blowing! Here everyone gets time off to get the vaccine and everyone gets paid sick leave (up to 6 weeks for whatever reason). the US really must reform their system. That takes time. But at least the US (if not the employer)  could pay in this case the sick leave after vaccination, if that would help with vaccine uptake.

Don't think that it's an uniquely US problem. There are many similar issues in Europe. I know a guy, the only fully asymptomatic COVID case I've met, whose boss wanted him to go to work because "he was fine". There are lots of people working irregularly without contract and health insurance. Undocumented migrants. There are marginalized communities that are difficult to approach needing targeted strategies. Independent workers struggling to catch up with lost income due to the lockdowns. Etc.

 

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