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Covid- Thank you, Next! Get out of our lives.


DireWolfSpirit

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Mask mandates outdoor are mostly lifted. Which makes a lot of sense, risk of contamination outside during French summer is ridiculously low, unless you're in a dense group of idiots drooling over each other - mind you, of course this happens during parties and the like. Best would be to force masks on unvaccinated people, but this is easier to do when boarding planes than when dealing with thousands of people walking in the streets.

Were mask mandates cancelled all over the place - shopping malls, public transportation, theatres -, like happens in some US states, it would be bad and would indeed cause a rise in new cases. Thankfully, I don't think any of this is on the menu for the next weeks. I wonder if indoor dining has been or will be allowed soon; that's something I'd dealy a little bit if possible, but I suppose the pressure to open is huge.

Still, as you said, the timing is purely political, it's naked vote-grabbing.

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In this country the mask mandates have been lifted inside too -- including the supermarkets, etc.  So far, though, in my very small though dense neighborhood, we all seem still to wear masks inside, though we aren't legally required to.  The staff in supermarkets still are.

In the meantime, as of today, the tour buses are rolling here again, and packed, both on the upper outdoor deck and the down enclosed coach.

How many of these people on those buses aren't inoculated?

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8 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

And if I was hiring them, it would cause me to pause if a candidate didn't want to be vaccinated at this point. Unless they have a very good reason, I'd be left questioning their critical thinking skills.

Is "I had covid19 already" a good reason to you or not?  I certainly think so, but critical thinking seems to take a back seat to panic in these threads whenever there's a choice.  Unless the issue is that this is actually a bio-engineered weapon that requires a different response, but that's not the case being made.

I just spent most of 30 hours in airports wearing a mask.  Except when I was seated at a bar, because apparently no variant spreads with seated drinkers, despite what happens when you stand up.  But otherwise I had to wear a cloth mask according to federal law (according to the PSAs, though I suspect it was actually an administrative ruling rather than Act of Congress signed by POTUS).  Wearing a dirty face nappy is like catching sand in a soccer net, as far as viruses are concerned, but apparently it radiates compassion.

Really most folks would be happier in the aggregate to just get your shot if you want it and get busy living.

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1 hour ago, mcbigski said:

Is "I had covid19 already" a good reason to you or not?  I certainly think so, but critical thinking seems to take a back seat to panic in these threads whenever there's a choice.  Unless the issue is that this is actually a bio-engineered weapon that requires a different response, but that's not the case being made.

No, because there's no proof you had it, and it's not a valid justification for not getting the vaccine in most cases.

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I just spent most of 30 hours in airports wearing a mask.  Except when I was seated at a bar, because apparently no variant spreads with seated drinkers, despite what happens when you stand up.  But otherwise I had to wear a cloth mask according to federal law (according to the PSAs, though I suspect it was actually an administrative ruling rather than Act of Congress signed by POTUS).  Wearing a dirty face nappy is like catching sand in a soccer net, as far as viruses are concerned, but apparently it radiates compassion.

Sorry your mask game is weak. I fear your shoe game may need some work too.

But I would at least have a drink with you at an airport. Taking your scotch neat?

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Really most folks would be happier in the aggregate to just get your shot if you want it and get busy living.

I'd be happier making everyone that can have it take it so we can all get busy living again.

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I find the lack of empathy towards people who don't want the vaccine a tad disappointing on the board.

 

I know 4 people who've been hospitalised by the vaccine, 5 women who's periods have completely stopped since taking the vaccine, countless others who've just become completely lethargic since having jt. People are allowed to have worries without being being called idiots, its not an unreasonable fear being scared of a brand new vaccine.

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4 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

I find the lack of empathy towards people who don't want the vaccine a tad disappointing on the board.

 

I know 4 people who've been hospitalised by the vaccine, 5 women who's periods have completely stopped since taking the vaccine, countless others who've just become completely lethargic since having jt. People are allowed to have worries without being being called idiots, its not an unreasonable fear being scared of a brand new vaccine.

I tend to agree, but their position is not helped when there is a wave of paranoid anti vaxx disinformation floating about, with a bunch of crazies spewing stuff they saw off the interwebs and holding banners about 5G and Bill Gates. I think a healthy dose of scepticism about a brand new vaccine using new technology should not be viewed with anger, but also crazy nutcases shouldn't be given too much sympathy either.

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1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

I tend to agree, but their position is not helped when there is a wave of paranoid anti vaxx disinformation floating about, with a bunch of crazies spewing stuff they saw off the interwebs and holding banners about 5G and Bill Gates. I think a healthy dose of scepticism about a brand new vaccine using new technology should not be viewed with anger, but also crazy nutcases shouldn't be given too much sympathy either.

Oh I completely agree.

Unfortunately I think those with a healthy dose of scepticism are being treated the same as the crazies in a lot of places.

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4 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Oh I completely agree.

Unfortunately I think those with a healthy dose of scepticism are being treated the same as the crazies in a lot of places.

I think that applies to basically everything during this crisis. Pretty much everything from masks, to lockdowns, vaccines or the origins of the virus should all be approached with some scepticim, instead there is a religious fervor around them. It doesn't help that of those mostly loudly screaming about those topics are internet loonies, and drown out any serious discussion on those topics.

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Well the thing about sceptics is that they do tend to spew out what can be called "bullshit statements" : statements that are either flat-out wrong, or that are so misleading that it's obvious the person didn't even bother doing  a 5mn-google search to have the faintest idea what they're talking about.

For instance this right here is a bullshit statement:

4 hours ago, mcbigski said:

Wearing a dirty face nappy is like catching sand in a soccer net, as far as viruses are concerned,

 

2 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

 its not an unreasonable fear being scared of a brand new vaccine.

No, it's not. But if you're genuinely worried, it's easy to do some research. Unless you 100% distrust the mainstream media and internet search engines (in which case you have a problem to begin with) you should get enough information to alleviate most of your concerns. And on balance, the risk of temporary side-effects shouldn't be enough to stop you from doing your part in ending a global pandemic that has fucked up our lives for a year and a half.

Because of course we have concerns. For instance, after doing a bit of reading I decided I'd much rather have the Pfizer shot - although arguably, the statistical difference with other vaccines isn't that big. But that helped my monkey brain feel a bit more at ease. So I get it.
And sure, I wonder about the long-term. No one can say with absolute certainty that at least one of these vaccines won't end up being seriously bad - fuckups happen. But I'm tempted to say: so what? Either we trust our scientists, technicians, and doctors and do our part or we don't and have to live with the pandemic. It's basic game theory: cooperate or defect. And we just can't have too many defectors, because when it comes to pandemics, they put others at risk. If humans were solitary by nature, it would be a different story, but we're social animals, and human societies mean that individuals have more duties than rights.

All this being said, I don't think it's lack of empathy exactly. Rejection, certainly. A bit of guilt-tripping, no doubt. But not exactly lack of empathy. I doubt there are people here who enjoy getting shots (I hate that). Everyone just wants to go back to being social again. Covid reminded us how much we need others to be mentally healthy. So much for Ayn Rand and her fans.

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2 minutes ago, Leap said:

Well you have to admit the clot part of that is fairly temporary

True. I'm sure it stops when you're buried.

I've had my first shot of the vaccine, mostly because I want to be able to travel and it may make that easier.

If it wasn't for the government and societal pressures though I would not have and I totally understand why young, healthy people are opposed to getting it.

 

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9 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

So you think getting a blood clot and dying is a temporary side affect just to be clear?

66 people have had a blood clot and died out of 42 million people who have been vaccinated in the UK (compared to about 128,000 who've died from covid). On top of that if you're getting a vaccination now you aren't going to be getting astrazeneca for a first dose anyway. So, yeah, I've got absolutely no sympathy for anyone refusing to get vaccinated on that basis.

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12 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

66 people have had a blood clot and died out of 42 million people who have been vaccinated in the UK (compared to about 128,000 who've died from covid). On top of that if you're getting a vaccination now you aren't going to be getting astrazeneca for a first dose anyway. So, yeah, I've got absolutely no sympathy for anyone refusing to get vaccinated on that basis.

When only a few hundred people below 30 have died from Covid in the UK 66 people is enough for me to be more worried about the vaccine than Covid personally especially when combined with all the other side effects. Each to their own.

 

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2 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

When only a few hundred people below 30 have died from Covid in the UK 66 people is enough for me to be more worried about the vaccine than Covid personally especially when combined with all the other side effects. Each to their own.

66 people have died from side effects associated with a vaccine people under 30 aren't even being given. If that's your justification for not getting vaccinated I'm absolutely going to judge people for it.

And, I'm sorry, no it's not 'each to their own'. Everyone who refuses to get vaccinated is facilitating the continued spread of a virus that is killing people. There's some social responsibility here. You might be fine but there are people who won't be as a consequence of your choices.

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9 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

When only a few hundred people below 30 have died from Covid in the UK 66 people is enough for me to be more worried about the vaccine than Covid personally especially when combined with all the other side effects. Each to their own.

You fail to take into consideration that Covid can have consequences besides dying.

Anyway, it's very clear that vaccines are several orders of magnitude safer than Covid, even for young people. In other words, your calculation only works if you think you're unlikely to get Covid. Which means, you're essentially relying on other people to make the other choice and be vaccinated.

In game theory you're a defector. Your strategy works as long as you're in the minority ; if everyone defects, everyone loses. You only win if others don't follow your example.

So why would you expect any sympathy from cooperators? I have none for you. Seriously, fuck off.

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6 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

 

1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

You fail to take into consideration that Covid can have consequences besides dying.

Anyway, it's very clear that vaccines are several orders of magnitude safer than Covid, even for young people. In other words, your calculation only works if you think you're unlikely to get Covid. Which means, you're essentially relying on other people to make the other choice and be vaccinated.

In game theory you're a defector. Your strategy works as long as you're in the minority ; if everyone defects, everyone loses. You only win if others don't follow your example.

So why would you expect any sympathy from cooperators? I have none for you. Seriously, fuck off.

 

Not sure if the fuck off is to hypothetical people or not as I've already stated I've had the vaccine.

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8 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

66 people have died from side effects associated with a vaccine people under 30 aren't even being given. If that's your justification for not getting vaccinated I'm absolutely going to judge people for it.

And, I'm sorry, no it's not 'each to their own'. Everyone who refuses to get vaccinated is facilitating the continued spread of a virus that is killing people. There's some social responsibility here. You might be fine but there are people who won't be as a consequence of your choices.

Except you can still spread the virus after being vaccinated of course. Let's be real here you're getting vaccinated to protect yourselves not other people. Be honest it'll feel good.

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There is strong evidence that people who are vaccinated are not only less likely to get Covid, but are also less likely to pass it on even if they do, And of course if they don't get it then they are unlikely to pass it on.

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This whole discussion is, however, why I prefer “carrot” approaches to “stick” approaches.  I am personally (I) comfortable with evaluating risk, (ii) an early adopter, and (iii) I am higher risk of Covid complications: therefore got my shot as soon as I could (and can’t wait for my kids to be eligible).  But that doesn’t mean everyone is like this.  I have watched people change their minds on getting a shot.  A lot of times it is because either it became more convenient, or they needed or wanted the shot to do something they wanted to do (e.g., travel, see a parent, whatever), so their risk calculation changed.  I believe it is my responsibility to encourage others, and I believe others have a responsibility to get a jab, and I believe there is a difference between those who believe Bill Gates wants to track them with a micro chip and people who are simply unsure and we should have a nuanced response.

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3 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Except you can still spread the virus after being vaccinated of course.

You can, you are drastically less likely to. And if the people around you are also vaccinated the chances of the virus being spread falls even more. That's how vaccines work.

4 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Let's be real here you're getting vaccinated to protect yourselves not other people. Be honest it'll feel good.

I'm in my 30s mate, like you've said for people under 30, the chances of me having serious covid are relatively low. I'd rather not get it but, being honest, my major concern throughout this whole thing has been catching it then passing it on to someone who dies.

I like you Luke but seriously, I absolutely believe people who're choosing not to get vaccinated are massively irresponsible people who don't care enough about the people around them.

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