Covid- Thank you, Next! Get out of our lives.

[Raja]

I fall more in the camp of 'it's the job of health professionals to educate ( without being paternalistic) regarding vaccines' - most people do not know how the body works, how vaccines work & why one should be getting them. Generally, people do not have a basic understanding of medicine due to the significant information asymmetry between healthcare professionals & patients.

And that is fine - it is the job of people like me & others to try and bridge that asymmetry - being worried about clots & side effects of vaccines is understandable, but that's why the AZ vaccine is not recommended in the younger population - no such side effects of Pfizer/ Moderna vaccine are present, given that an alternative is offered, I would hope people realize that the alternative is available and therefore choose to get the vaccine.

I will say though that not getting the vaccine in younger people does have consequences that go past just your own health, as you can still spread the virus.

9 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

Except you can still spread the virus after being vaccinated of course.

Yes, but the chance of passing it on reduces, and possibly rather significantly, if you're inclined to read the papers that SAGE have put out.

Convincing people of the right course of action in Medicine is something we do every single day*, so convincing people to get vaccines is part of that - which is why I'm open to having a conversation & putting forth *why* someone should get vaccinated ( I convinced my barber to get the vaccine the other week, which I'm kinda proud of), as opposed to dismissing them outright.

*There are so many examples of this - one of them that comes to my mind is convincing someone that they need to take blood thinners for the rest of their life if they get a blood clot. A lot of people can sometimes feel that 'I feel fine, so I don't need to take this blood thinning tablet, the clot I had was years ago', but it's the job of people like me & people I work with to explain that one needs medications like that for the rest of their life.

[Rippounet]

2 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Not sure if the fuck off is to hypothetical people or not as I've already stated I've had the vaccine.

Fuck the noise then . I'm trying to do some work, I suck at multi-tasking, and got caught up in my own self-righteousness (probably isn't the first time).
Anyway, why play the devil's advocate if you're not the devil? Not sure what answers you seek.

I don't see a world in which not getting vaccinated doesn't rely on others getting vaccinated, hence the spite against sceptics.

If you want a more serious answer, "altruistic punishment" (sometimes called/described as  "virtue-signaling" on the internet) is a near-universal phenomenon in human societies. Social pressure to conform. Establishment of common rules to ensure trust and cooperation. Higher values or "greater good" to which individuals are forced to adhere. Etc... Which is why in most societies, there is no sympathy for people who choose their own self-interest through calculation.

[needless to say, the US is generally at the individualistic end of the spectrum in anthropological/psychological studies]

Just now, lessthanluke said:

Except you can still spread the virus after being vaccinated of course.

Latest study I've seen says no to that.
At the very least, the odds of spreading the virus drop dramatically, pretty much ensuring the end of the pandemic.

[A wilding]

 

3 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I believe it is my responsibility to encourage others, and I believe others have a responsibility to get a jab, and I believe there is a difference between those who believe Bill Gates wants to track them with a micro chip and people who are simply unsure and we should have a nuanced response.

Agreed, but that nuanced response should probably include challenging statements such as "countless [people have] just become completely lethargic since having [the vaccination]".

[lessthanluke]

7 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Fuck the noise then . I'm trying to do some work, I suck at multi-tasking, and got caught up in my own self-righteousness (probably isn't the first time).
Anyway, why play the devil's advocate if you're not the devil? Not sure what answers you seek.

I don't see a world in which not getting vaccinated doesn't rely on others getting vaccinated, hence the spite against sceptics.

If you want a more serious answer, "altruistic punishment" (sometimes called/described as  "virtue-signaling" on the internet) is a near-universal phenomenon in human societies. Social pressure to conform. Establishment of common rules to ensure trust and cooperation. Higher values or "greater good" to which individuals are forced to adhere. Etc... Which is why in most societies, there is no sympathy for people who choose their own self-interest through calculation.

[needless to say, the US is generally at the individualistic end of the spectrum in anthropological/psychological studies]

Latest study I've seen says no to that.
At the very least, the odds of spreading the virus drop dramatically, pretty much ensuring the end of the pandemic.

Because I have friends in their early 20s who are quite worried about the vaccine (and really not at all worried about how covid would affect them) and its long term affects but whenever they raise these concerns they are told to shut the fuck up and take it. Basically like has happened in this thread.

And no these are not people who think its a 5G, Bill Gates conspiracy. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

3 minutes ago, A wilding said:

 

Agreed, but that nuanced response should probably include challenging statements such as "countless [people have] just become completely lethargic since having [the vaccination]".

Oh totally.  And I think studies show that the logically fallacious, but more effective way is to reply “nah, mate, I got it and felt fine 24 hours later; same with x, y, z person we know in common; why don’t you head down to the pharmacy and get yours so we can plan a trip together.”

And, I’m with Raja here, more or less.  Peer pressure is a thing, and also trusted experts are a thing, and in person trumps internet (at least for now).

[lessthanluke]

11 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

You can, you are drastically less likely to. And if the people around you are also vaccinated the chances of the virus being spread falls even more. That's how vaccines work.

I'm in my 30s mate, like you've said for people under 30, the chances of me having serious covid are relatively low. I'd rather not get it but, being honest, my major concern throughout this whole thing has been catching it then passing it on to someone who dies.

I like you Luke but seriously, I absolutely believe people who're choosing not to get vaccinated are massively irresponsible people who don't care enough about the people around them.

And I understand that position, what I'm saying is the responses should be more about understanding those concerns and alleviation of them rather than being told to "fuck off". But if you all believe the fuck off response to be the right way to go then go for it I guess.

[Rippounet]

12 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Because I have friends in their early 20s who are quite worried about the vaccine (and really not at all worried about how covid would affect them) and its long term affects but whenever they raise these concerns they are told to shut the fuck up and take it. Basically like has happened in this thread.

There are people in their 20s who ended up with serious lung or heart damage after getting Covid. One of them was my (ex)boss's son for instance. The kid's like 22 or 23.

If you want a solution, one of the best is for the sceptics to meet people in their age range who've had post-Covid conditions/sequelae. There are a lot of such people. Not those who died, but those who survived.

This is a bit old, but it sums it up: https://www.academie-medecine.fr/medical-sequelae-of-covid-19/?lang=en

And for shock value, there are documentaries on all this. A quick research gives me this for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGzxmxhVJ9w

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

This is clearly a side effect of the death of institutional trust. Can't trust the government. Can't trust the scientists. Can't trust the media. But some BS information on the internet?

There are legitimate reasons not to get vaccinated for a small portion of the population, but at this point, the overwhelming majority of people not getting vaccinated are just not doing it because they don't want to and are reaching for BS reasons to justify it. 

[ljkeane]

9 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

And I understand that position, what I'm saying is the responses should be more about understanding those concerns and alleviation of them rather than being told to "fuck off". But if you all believe the fuck off response to be the right way to go then go for it I guess.

As a general principle to address concerns sure.

At this point though we've had about seven months of the NHS telling us you should get vaccinated, the WHO and every other global health authority telling us you should get vaccinated, experts of one sort or another on tv or in the newspaper telling us you should get vaccinated and addressing various concerns pretty much every day. If that's not enough for you you can go online and read the various scientific papers on the benefits of the vaccines and read the publicly available statistics on the very limited number of serious adverse reactions.

At some stage the people choosing not to get vaccinated are responsible for their own choices. So, maybe you're right, 'fuck off' isn't best way of getting them onboard but it's definitely what I think of them.

[lessthanluke]

11 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

As a general principle to address concerns sure.

At this point though we've had about seven months of the NHS telling us you should get vaccinated, the WHO and every other global health authority telling us you should get vaccinated, experts of one sort or another on tv or in the newspaper telling us you should get vaccinated and addressing various concerns pretty much every day. If that's not enough for you you can go online and read the various scientific papers on the benefits of the vaccines and read the publicly available statistics on the very limited number of serious adverse reactions.

At some stage the people choosing not to get vaccinated are responsible for their own choices. So, maybe you're right, 'fuck off' isn't best way of getting them onboard but it's definitely what I think of them.

I mean I don't blame people at all for not trusting what they're told. Its a by product of being lied to constantly for the past 18 months by those in authority. Just look how this whole pandemic has been handled. But that's another conversation.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

43 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

This whole discussion is, however, why I prefer “carrot” approaches to “stick” approaches.  I am personally (I) comfortable with evaluating risk, (ii) an early adopter, and (iii) I am higher risk of Covid complications: therefore got my shot as soon as I could (and can’t wait for my kids to be eligible).  But that doesn’t mean everyone is like this.  I have watched people change their minds on getting a shot.  A lot of times it is because either it became more convenient, or they needed or wanted the shot to do something they wanted to do (e.g., travel, see a parent, whatever), so their risk calculation changed.  I believe it is my responsibility to encourage others, and I believe others have a responsibility to get a jab, and I believe there is a difference between those who believe Bill Gates wants to track them with a micro chip and people who are simply unsure and we should have a nuanced response.

I find it hilarious when people use this excuse because 99.999999% of them also have a cellphone. 

[Week]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

There are legitimate reasons not to get vaccinated for a small portion of the population, but at this point, the overwhelming majority of people not getting vaccinated are just not doing it because they don't want to and are reaching for BS reasons to justify it. 

The legitimate reasons should be delivered to you by a/your doctor. Full stop.

Using distrust of institutions after the pandemic as justification to NOT get vaccinated feels like learning the wrong lesson. Politicians/policy-makers have consistently made poor choices - though often with multiple shit options - the failures have not been with science and medicine. That recognition is important.

[Week]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I find it hilarious when people use this excuse because 99.999999% of them also have a cellphone. 

Lol

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/opinion/capitol-attack-cellphone-data.html

[Rippounet]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I find it hilarious when people use this excuse because 99.999999% of them also have a cellphone. 

It's also hilarious, because if vaccination could give you 5G, or even a decent GPS sytem, there'd be millions willing to pay for that.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

38 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Because I have friends in their early 20s who are quite worried about the vaccine (and really not at all worried about how covid would affect them) and its long term affects but whenever they raise these concerns they are told to shut the fuck up and take it. Basically like has happened in this thread.

And no these are not people who think its a 5G, Bill Gates conspiracy. 

Here's the thing Luke, this line of thinking was fine in say February, but since then we've learned the vaccine is for the most part safe and effective while also learning younger people can catch the virus and it can have serious long term effects, and that furthermore, you're far more likely to die from the virus than from the vaccine. People saying they still have concerns and need to do more research probably haven't done any research and are just looking for what they think is the best excuse to not get the vaccine. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, Week said:

The legitimate reasons should be delivered to you by a/your doctor. Full stop.

Using distrust of institutions after the pandemic as justification to NOT get vaccinated feels like learning the wrong lesson. Politicians/policy-makers have consistently made poor choices - though often with multiple shit options - the failures have not been with science and medicine. That recognition is important.

It's a larger problem than just the vaccine and it's been going on for some time now across the world. It's the death of expertise, the lack of trust in intuitions, etc. that's giving people the belief that they know as much if not more than the people who've decided their lives to studying a specific subject. I'd highly recommend the book The Knowledge Illusion, as it touches on some of the underlying reasons why this is happening.

  

[Filippa Eilhart]

2 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

So you think getting a blood clot and dying is a temporary side affect just to be clear?

I really hoped I wouldn't get AZ or JJ just for that reason (and I didn't) but then we had a training with Poland's leading expert on Covid who said 30% of covid cases (even the asymptomatic ones) cause blood problems which very often lead to blood clots (even months after recovery) and having learned that I would have risked either vaccine.

eta: also either you know millions of people or your friends are really unlucky since the percentage of serious side effects after vaccination is like 0,30% :p

 

[lessthanluke]

11 minutes ago, Fillyjonk Eilhart said:

I really hoped I wouldn't get AZ or JJ just for that reason (and I didn't) but then we had a training with Poland's leading expert on Covid who said 30% of covid cases (even the asymptomatic ones) cause blood problems which very often lead to blood clots (even months after recovery) and having learned that I would have risked either vaccine.

eta: also either you know millions of people or your friends are really unlucky since the percentage of serious side effects after vaccination is like 0,30% :p

 

I guess its the latter! I know more people who've had serious sides from the vaccine than been hospitalised with covid so obviously that clouds my judgement somewhat.

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 hour ago, lessthanluke said:

Because I have friends in their early 20s who are quite worried about the vaccine (and really not at all worried about how covid would affect them) and its long term affects but whenever they raise these concerns they are told to shut the fuck up and take it. Basically like has happened in this thread.

And no these are not people who think its a 5G, Bill Gates conspiracy. 

You will get the same side effects and worse from the virus. There is no real debate about that. That is why it is shut the fuck up and take it. 

If those people were heavy into social distancing and mask wearing there might be a chance of them not getting it but the circle of the vaccine sceptics and pro-mask social distancing folks do not really overlap in my experience.

There was some debate about AZ and J&J because it looked like it was worse than the other vaccines not that it was worse than the virus. 

It is the same bullshit as with climate change. There is overwhelming evidence for one side but you have to have a "balanced" debate.

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

5 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

I guess its the latter! I know more people who've had serious sides from the vaccine than been hospitalised with covid so obviously that clouds my judgement somewhat.

You had deaths in your strong man circles right? How many deaths from the vaccines in those circles? How much permanent long term damage?

Edit: I think that the covid restrictions are a threat to your livelihood and your way of life is what clouds your judgment. I understand the man...  But the vaccines are the only real way to normalcy without a lot of needless suffering.