The Kingsguard at the tower of joy are traitor since according to Aerys last orders he named Viserys next in line as ruler of westeros

[Mister Smikes]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

No magical emails.

How, then.  

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Just Hightower order to end this fucking mess, take charge of his men, and deal with the rebellion.

How does he get this order to Hightower, if Hightower is 1000 miles away somewhere inaccessible?  And he's got only 2 of his men with him.

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Most likely orders.

How does he get the "orders" to him?

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

No way to wiggle around this.

WTF are you talking about?

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Hightower is the commander, not a simple soldier, a dumb robot, only executing basic orders.

Who said he was?  

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

If Rhaegar was mad, then these three most puissant warriors had the same madness. Very unlikely. Therefore, all 3 and Rhaegar shared some knowledge GRRM so far keeps for himself.

BTW, Aerys believed the Starks and Barathons were traitors. He didn't give a buck for them and still less for Lyanna. He was suspecting Rhaegar to complot with them. He would have specifically warned Hightower against Rhaegar dealing with the Starks.

Yeah, all three? all mad? all at the same time?

But even the idea that they shared some knowledge with Rhaegar is based on the notion that they were at the tower on Rhaegar's orders. And even that is unlikely. What other "knowledge" could unite them in this way except that Jon is the third head of the dragon, the ptwp, who sings the song of ice and fire and will one day rescue the world from an age-old mythical evil that has not even presented itself yet. But if someone came up to you with this story, after having kidnapped and raped a teenage girl, would you just nod and say it all makes perfect sense? Or would you think your prince was mad?

Aerys might not care for Starks or Baratheons or Lyanna, but if he came to believe that the blood of an infant king was what was needed to hatch a dragon egg -- which was probably what was going to happen to Rhaegar at Summerhall -- then do you think it would be worth having three KG standing guard? And since Aerys is expecting to survive the war in one form or another, might he not make them swear a new vow that they will not leave this post even if they hear that Aerys has died?

 

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

How does he get the "orders" to him?

The usual way, just talking to him, face to face at the RK

Quote

During the ensuing rebellion, after the Battle of the Bells, Gerold was sent to find Prince Rhaegar. [A World of Ice and Fire]

Who could send Hightower anywhere but Aerys. "Find" may mean: "just find where he is, do as you wish after, no need to come back and tell me". But the rebellion was turning bad for Aerys and he was seeking every possible assistance. No one could expect 3 of the best KG take their leave in the south... indefinitely.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

would you just nod and say it all makes perfect sense?

Of course not. Some hard evidences are needed. I said it before.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And since Aerys is expecting to survive the war in one form or another, might he not make them swear a new vow that they will not leave this post even if they hear that Aerys has died?

I don't think Rhaegar or the KG would believed that. I don't think what they believed included Aerys to survive, as a man or a dragon.

[Mister Smikes]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The usual way, just talking to him, face to face at the RK

It does not appear that they were in KL when Aerys first realized he was in any danger.    So much for that idea.  

[BalerionTheCat]

19 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

It does not appear that they were in KL when Aerys first realized he was in any danger.    So much for that idea.  

Hightower, Jaime and probably all the KG but Dayne and Whent were in KL when Aerys burned Brandon & Co. Beside Aerys as it would nominally be.

What let you think Hightower was elsewhere when Aerys gave him orders?

 

[Mister Smikes]

35 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Hightower, Jaime and probably all the KG but Dayne and Whent were in KL when Aerys burned Brandon & Co.

That would be well over a year before the Sack.  I don't think Aerys imagined himself in any danger at that point.  Evidently, Ser Gerold left KL since then, presumably with Aerys' permission and instructions.

Quote

What let you think Hightower was elsewhere when Aerys gave him orders?

Huh?  No.  Ser Gerold was plausibly elsewhere when Aerys realized he was in any danger, and in any event absent on Aerys' orders.   And by the time he is 1000 miles away it would have been difficult and/or impossible and/or too late to make an attempt to order his return.

[BalerionTheCat]

7 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Ser Gerold was plausibly elsewhere when Aerys realized he was in any danger

Why? No evidence, no support for that. A KG is not limited to, but is primarily, a king's bodyguard.

7 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

And by the time he is 1000 miles away it would have been difficult and/or impossible and/or too late to make an attempt to order his return.

When Aerys send a KG somewhere, he would expect him to return. No?

The fact, is Hightower found Rhaegar and the missing KG. And if Hightower had then the mean to ask further instructions from Aerys, he knew for sure Aerys would not let him and 2 other KG stay and keep safe a pregnant rebel. And let Rhaegar return alone. He knew Aerys would be fucking displeased at his return if he let that happen. It is no good for a LC to act the idiot.

Maybe Hightower was not there breaking the letter of his orders from Aerys, but he was breaking the spirit. And obey Aerys's orders was part of his vows.

[Mister Smikes]

7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Why? No evidence, no support for that. A KG is not limited to, but is primarily, a king's bodyguard.

Evidence = Gerold clearly considers himself to be loyal from his words at the TOJ.   And he was not with Aerys when he died.  So Aerys must have sent him away.

You may take your pick as to whether Aerys did this before or after realizing how serious was the danger posed by Robert's rebellion.

Quote

When Aerys send a KG somewhere, he would expect him to return. No?

Depends on the orders.  Whatever orders he gave, Gerold must have complied with them or made an honorable effort to do so.  Anyhow a 2000 mile round-trip journey, with an unknown goal to be accomplished in the interim, potentially takes a very long period of time.

Quote

The fact, is Hightower found Rhaegar and the missing KG.

That's theory, not fact.  A plausible theory, but still theory.

But if he encountered Rhaegar, he may have found himself under Rhaegar's command, on Aerys' instructions.

Quote

And if Hightower had then the mean to ask further instructions from Aerys, [....]

Are we back to the magical emails again?

 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't think Rhaegar or the KG would believed that. I don't think what they believed included Aerys to survive, as a man or a dragon.

It shouldn't matter what they do or do not believe. Rhaegar is not even at the tower. He's leading Aerys' host to the Trident. And the KG obey the commands of their king, like they are sworn to do.

[Frey family reunion]

On 6/3/2021 at 9:14 AM, John Suburbs said:

Aerys might not care for Starks or Baratheons or Lyanna, but if he came to believe that the blood of an infant king was what was needed to hatch a dragon egg -- which was probably what was going to happen to Rhaegar at Summerhall -- then do you think it would be worth having three KG standing guard? And since Aerys is expecting to survive the war in one form or another, might he not make them swear a new vow that they will not leave this post even if they hear that Aerys has died?

I agree.

While everyone else keeps trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, I think we need to take a cold hard look at the evidence.  And the evidence certainly suggests that 1.  Aerys did not believe that the Kingsguards were traitors (at least not the three that were at the tower of joy).  2.  The Kingsguards firmly, and smugly believed that they were following their Kingsguard vows by being both "far away" when at the Battle of the Trident, when Aerys was killed and by being at the tower of joy when Ned arrived.    

So I think that we have to imagine a scenario where both Rhaegar and Aerys would be of the same mind.  And it probably wouldn't pertain to the actual governing of the realm.  Rhaegar's conversation with Jaime suggests that he is not happy with Aerys as king.  And up to the time at Harrenhal, Aerys certainly appeared to be very distrustful of Rhaegar.

The only thing that I think father and son could have come together about during this time period would have been bringing dragons back to House Targaryen.  I think Rhaegar would have been motivated by fulfilling TPTWP prophecy for his son.  That his son needed dragons to fulfill his destiny as TPTWP.  And of course Aerys' own meglomania and pyromania would suggest that he would very much be in favor of the return of dragons.

ETA: As for the last bit, I'm not sure that the Kingsguards were just stuck at the tower of joy because of the death of Aerys and Rhaegar.  My guess is that they were tasked with finishing the job, even if Aerys and Rhaegar died.

My speculation grows a lot here I admit, but I think there is a method behind the tower of joy's location in the Prince's Pass.  It's a midway point between the Reach and Dorne.  So in other words, in addition to the King's Blood sacrifice, the Kingsuard may have been tasked to bring and guard, other parties were also expected at some point.

And here is where my speculation grows really rampant.  My guess is we're looking at Oberyn Martell from Sunspear, and Archmaester Marwyn from the Citadel.  

We see a possible connection between the two, since Marwyn has taken on Oberyn's daughter as his apprentice.  

Marwyn's expertise in Valyrian magic to do the dragon hatching ritual (and maybe even the dragon eggs), and Oberyn to bring either TPTWP (if indeed they ahd smuggled him out of King's Landing) or perhaps to bring one of the other two heads of the dragon.

Mirri's presence (and ultimate sacrifice) at the place where the dragons were actually hatched may further connect Marwyn.  After all, he was one of the persons that Mirri learned under during her time in Asshai.

[BalerionTheCat]

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Evidence = Gerold clearly considers himself to be loyal from his words at the TOJ

Not an evidence of:

12 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Ser Gerold was plausibly elsewhere when Aerys realized he was in any danger

I never said Hightower admitted any fault or that he would do thing differently if he could. Even if it meant Rhaegar and Aerys death.(no, I'm not talking about your magic emails, back in time).

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

And he was not with Aerys when he died.

Of course. He was at the ToJ (or was there later when Ned found him). But not at the RK.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

You may take your pick as to whether Aerys did this before or after realizing how serious was the danger posed by Robert's rebellion.

After. Read the A World of Ice and Fire reference. But doesn't much matter.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

That's theory, not fact.  A plausible theory, but still theory.

Doesn't really matter who found who. They meet. You agree on that? Or you consider Rhaegar returned by himself to the RK while Hightower decided to stay at the ToJ, without ever talking to Rhaegar?

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

But if he encountered Rhaegar, he may have found himself under Rhaegar's command, on Aerys' instructions.

Not excluded. But I don't think it matches Aerys attitude with Rhaegar. To put Hightower and the KG under his unrestricted authority, even if it seems to participate to the rebellion. This is I think the main disagreement I have with you. Plus the autonomy of a LC to determine how best to serve the interests of his king, not deferring to Rhaegar  as soon as Aerys is not in sight.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Are we back to the magical emails again?

Not now and not before. I mean Hightower is the commander. And so he is expected to have autonomy and initiative and be able to act in the best interest of the king without having to return to him every hour to know what next he should do.

 

[Mister Smikes]

57 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I never said Hightower admitted any fault or that he would do thing differently if he could.

He seems to think he is loyal.  And he ought to know.  I certainly don't think any of us can say we know better.

57 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Of course. He was at the ToJ (or was there later when Ned found him). But not at the RK.

These events occurred an unknown number of months apart.  We don't know where Ser Gerold was at the time of the Sack.  We only know where he was some months later.

57 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

After. Read the A World of Ice and Fire reference.

I am aware of no TWOIAF reference that establishes Ser Gerold was still with Aerys after Aerys became aware of Robert's Rebellion.

57 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But doesn't much matter.

True.  After he becomes aware of Robert's Rebellion, Aerys can still send Ser Gerold away for some purpose unknown to us readers.

57 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Doesn't really matter who found who. They meet. You agree on that?

No.  I don't agree on that.  We know Ser Gerold met with Ser Arthur and Ser Oswald and (I suppose) with Lyanna, because Ned finds them all together.   It is not established that Ser Gerold met Rhaegar after leaving Aerys.  It is a plausible possibility, but not a certain one.

57 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Or you consider Rhaegar returned by himself to the RK while Hightower decided to stay at the ToJ, without ever talking to Rhaegar?

Who knows?  I don't know when either of these things happened.  I don't know why either of these things happened.  I don't know if or whether they happened at the same time.  I don't know if there is a connection between them.

That there is some kind of connection between them is plausible, but by no means certain.

57 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Not excluded. But I don't think it matches Aerys attitude with Rhaegar. To put Hightower and the KG under his unrestricted authority, even if it seems to participate to the rebellion. This is I think the main disagreement I have with you.

I don't know what that disagreement is.  I only suggested that Ser Gerold might plausibly, under certain circumstances, see himself as being under Rhaegar's command.  I never suggested Ser Gerold would consider himself bound to obey clearly traitorous commands.  

57 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I mean Hightower is the commander. And so he is expected to have autonomy and initiative and be able to act in the best interest of the king without having to return to him every hour to know what next he should do.

How much autonomy and initiative he would deem himself to have would depend entirely on circumstances that are unknown to us readers, such as the nature and purpose of his orders, whether or not Aerys placed him under Rhaegar in the command chain, etc. etc.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Who knows?  I don't know when either of these things happened.

I agree. We try to reconstruct the chronology of events. Time wise, it's conceivable Rhaegar left Lyanna before Hightower reached him. On his own, because he would have something important to do elsewhere. And Hightower would reach the ToJ and decide he would serve best Aerys by staying there and wait for Lyanna's child. Not my best guess. But you're welcome to it...or to not guess at all. It's me, not happy if I'm not drawing lines between dots.

But this is not absolutely important. It only serves to determine who these dead characters were. The bottom line is the PtwP was born there (if you agree on that). And that the fact escaped Robert and all these ignorant mighty lords who would smother him.

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

I only suggested that Ser Gerold might plausibly, under certain circumstances, see himself as being under Rhaegar's command.

Exactly. More likely for him to join Rhaegar's team, if he met him some place, and Rhaegar did the convincing. Whatever Rhaegar asked him, Hightower didn't see it as a dishonor or a breach of his vows, even if Aerys would be furious. The "certain circumstances" would be something really exceptional, something of utmost importance. Like protecting the PtwP who is the only hope of surviving the Long Night.

[John Suburbs]

On 6/4/2021 at 10:29 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I agree.

While everyone else keeps trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, I think we need to take a cold hard look at the evidence.  And the evidence certainly suggests that 1.  Aerys did not believe that the Kingsguards were traitors (at least not the three that were at the tower of joy).  2.  The Kingsguards firmly, and smugly believed that they were following their Kingsguard vows by being both "far away" when at the Battle of the Trident, when Aerys was killed and by being at the tower of joy when Ned arrived.    

So I think that we have to imagine a scenario where both Rhaegar and Aerys would be of the same mind.  And it probably wouldn't pertain to the actual governing of the realm.  Rhaegar's conversation with Jaime suggests that he is not happy with Aerys as king.  And up to the time at Harrenhal, Aerys certainly appeared to be very distrustful of Rhaegar.

The only thing that I think father and son could have come together about during this time period would have been bringing dragons back to House Targaryen.  I think Rhaegar would have been motivated by fulfilling TPTWP prophecy for his son.  That his son needed dragons to fulfill his destiny as TPTWP.  And of course Aerys' own meglomania and pyromania would suggest that he would very much be in favor of the return of dragons.

ETA: As for the last bit, I'm not sure that the Kingsguards were just stuck at the tower of joy because of the death of Aerys and Rhaegar.  My guess is that they were tasked with finishing the job, even if Aerys and Rhaegar died.

My speculation grows a lot here I admit, but I think there is a method behind the tower of joy's location in the Prince's Pass.  It's a midway point between the Reach and Dorne.  So in other words, in addition to the King's Blood sacrifice, the Kingsuard may have been tasked to bring and guard, other parties were also expected at some point.

And here is where my speculation grows really rampant.  My guess is we're looking at Oberyn Martell from Sunspear, and Archmaester Marwyn from the Citadel.  

We see a possible connection between the two, since Marwyn has taken on Oberyn's daughter as his apprentice.  

Marwyn's expertise in Valyrian magic to do the dragon hatching ritual (and maybe even the dragon eggs), and Oberyn to bring either TPTWP (if indeed they ahd smuggled him out of King's Landing) or perhaps to bring one of the other two heads of the dragon.

Mirri's presence (and ultimate sacrifice) at the place where the dragons were actually hatched may further connect Marwyn.  After all, he was one of the persons that Mirri learned under during her time in Asshai.

I like it. And this would also explain why Aerys would cover for his wayward, untrustworthy son when the Starks came hollering for his head.

The one thing that still doesn't fit is why Rhaegar would be looking to make "changes" upon his return from the Trident if he has been plotting with Aerys all along -- assuming, of course, that one of the changes was to depose Aerys. This conversation would only make sense if Rhaegar was one of the victims in Aerys' plot; ei, Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna, was not with her, did not father her child . . . Or if he did, he was under the influence of a love potion that drove him mad with lust. Cersei, after all, encounters MtF at the tourney at Lannisport, where both Aerys and Rhaegar were present, and Maggy was well known at the time for her love potions.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The one thing that still doesn't fit is why Rhaegar would be looking to make "changes" upon his return from the Trident if he has been plotting with Aerys all along -- assuming, of course, that one of the changes was to depose Aerys. This conversation would only make sense if Rhaegar was one of the victims in Aerys' plot; ei, Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna, was not with her, did not father her child . . . Or if he did, he was under the influence of a love potion that drove him mad with lust. Cersei, after all, encounters MtF at the tourney at Lannisport, where both Aerys and Rhaegar were present, and Maggy was well known at the time for her love potions.

My take is that there were still significant issues between father and son.  I think the plan to hatch the dragons may have been the one thing that could at least temporary unite them.  

But I still don't think it patched everything up.  My guess is Rhaegar probably wasn't happy with how Aerys handled Rickard and Brandon.  And my guess is that Rhaegar wasn't happy with what happened to Chelstead.  So even though they were both with one mind in hatching dragons, Rhaegar still probably harbored significant concerns with Aerys' mental state.  (Ironic I know).

And perhaps another possibility, is that Aerys may have discussed with Rhaegar early on his notion about burning down King's Landing to give rise to his, um, transformation, into a dragon. 

My suspicion is that the Targaryen obsession with transforming into a dragon may be linked to the prince that was promised prohecy.  We first hear about it when Aerion drinks his wildfire.  Aerion, the brother of both Aemon and Aegon V. 

My suspicion is that the prince that was promised prophecy may be intertwined with the three heads of the dragon prophecy.  And it's not just a dragon they wanted to hatch, but my guess is they were looking for a way to transfer their consciousness into that dragon.  Hence the dragon has three heads may be very literal. 

And this might be the explanation of Aemon's odd remark about the sphinx being the riddle not the riddler.  He may have been referring to a Valyrian Spinx.  A dragon's body with a human head.  In other words how to transfer the consciousness to create a "second life" in a dragon.

If so, then Aerys may have had his own solution to the riddle.  And it involved burning down all of King's Landing to accomplish it.  If so, my guess is that Rhaegar may have convinced him that there was another solution, one that did not require so many deaths.  And this perhaps stayed Aerys hand.  At least up until Rhaegar's death.

So if Rhaegar had an inkling that Aerys was at least contemplating something like this, then it might explain why Rhaegar may have finally made the deicision to take matters into his own hands and depose Aerys himself after he won the war.  

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My take is that there were still significant issues between father and son.  I think the plan to hatch the dragons may have been the one thing that could at least temporary unite them.  

But I still don't think it patched everything up.  My guess is Rhaegar probably wasn't happy with how Aerys handled Rickard and Brandon.  And my guess is that Rhaegar wasn't happy with what happened to Chelstead.  So even though they were both with one mind in hatching dragons, Rhaegar still probably harbored significant concerns with Aerys' mental state.  (Ironic I know).

And perhaps another possibility, is that Aerys may have discussed with Rhaegar early on his notion about burning down King's Landing to give rise to his, um, transformation, into a dragon. 

My suspicion is that the Targaryen obsession with transforming into a dragon may be linked to the prince that was promised prohecy.  We first hear about it when Aerion drinks his wildfire.  Aerion, the brother of both Aemon and Aegon V. 

My suspicion is that the prince that was promised prophecy may be intertwined with the three heads of the dragon prophecy.  And it's not just a dragon they wanted to hatch, but my guess is they were looking for a way to transfer their consciousness into that dragon.  Hence the dragon has three heads may be very literal. 

And this might be the explanation of Aemon's odd remark about the sphinx being the riddle not the riddler.  He may have been referring to a Valyrian Spinx.  A dragon's body with a human head.  In other words how to transfer the consciousness to create a "second life" in a dragon.

If so, then Aerys may have had his own solution to the riddle.  And it involved burning down all of King's Landing to accomplish it.  If so, my guess is that Rhaegar may have convinced him that there was another solution, one that did not require so many deaths.  And this perhaps stayed Aerys hand.  At least up until Rhaegar's death.

So if Rhaegar had an inkling that Aerys was at least contemplating something like this, then it might explain why Rhaegar may have finally made the deicision to take matters into his own hands and depose Aerys himself after he won the war.  

Wow, this is exquisitely intricate and complex, just like we would expect from Martin. I can't say I buy into it entirely just yet, but it certainly provides motivation for the series of odd decisions that Rhaegar and Aeryn made throughout the whole affair.