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Mrstrategy

The Kingsguard at the tower of joy are traitor since according to Aerys last orders he named Viserys next in line as ruler of westeros

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Posted (edited)

The Kingsguard at the tower of joy are traitors since according to Aerys last orders he named  Viserys next in line as ruler of westeros do they have not legal right or authority to defend Jon snow and should had recognized Viserys as new king of westeros and they should have traveled to dragonstone or at least two of them leaving only one Kingsguard to guard Lyanna and Jon snow

Edited by Mrstrategy

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12 minutes ago, Mrstrategy said:

"... according to Aerys last orders he named  Viserys next in line as ruler of westeros ..."

This is not established anywhere in the books.

Maester Yandel seems to think that Viserys became the "new heir" on the death of Rhaegar.  But as far as we can tell, this proves nothing more than that Maester Yandel does not understand how the line of succession works.

Aerys is not known to have taken any particular steps to disinherit Aegon, other than by sending Viserys to safety and then plotting to blow up KL with Aegon in it.  This certainly could be taken as implying that Aegon preferred Viserys as his heir.  But the mad acts of madmen, and the murderous acts of murderers (if unsuccessful at least), are never deemed sufficient to disinherit anybody. 

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1 hour ago, Mrstrategy said:

The Kingsguard at the tower of joy are traitors since according to Aerys last orders he named  Viserys next in line as ruler of westeros do they have not legal right or authority to defend Jon snow and should had recognized Viserys as new king of westeros and they should have traveled to dragonstone or at least two of them leaving only one Kingsguard to guard Lyanna and Jon snow

That is a weird take on things and not in accord with earlier precedents about KG in similar situations. Just because a king dies you do not abandon your post, even if the king doesn't have KG protection (not to mention that Viserys III can create his own KG easily enough just like many other kings did). The Dance of the Dragons shows that in great detail, Arys Oakheart continuing to protect Myrcella without this order being confirmed by the new King Tommen, etc.

In light to the situation they were in - House Targaryen was deposed and Robert was the new king you can make a better argument for them offering Robert their services than Viserys III because Robert was the King on the Iron Throne and subsequently also the king duly crowned and anointed by the High Septon.

If they wanted to continue to serve House Targaryen and the memory of the people who entrusted them with their task to do whatever they did with Lyanna then continuing in that duty would be the best way to honor the memories of Aerys and Rhaegar ... not to mention that it would also serve House Targaryen as such because having two male heirs of the Mad King out there rather than one increase the chances that one day another Targaryen would retake the Iron Throne. It would also be of paramount importance to keep Lyanna's child a secret so it wouldn't be endangered.

And if whatever caused the three guys to be with Lyanna was the order/mission to protect both her and her unborn child then this would continue to be their mission even after Rhaegar and Aerys died.

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Also if those three betrayed their oaths in some way, I doubt Ned would've remembered them so highly in this thoughts. He would've painted them with the same mental brush that Jaime got for abandoning their posts. Though Selmy gets a pass for... reasons.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/30/2021 at 6:49 AM, Mrstrategy said:

The Kingsguard at the tower of joy are traitors since according to Aerys last orders he named  Viserys next in line as ruler of westeros do they have not legal right or authority to defend Jon snow and should had recognized Viserys as new king of westeros and they should have traveled to dragonstone or at least two of them leaving only one Kingsguard to guard Lyanna and Jon snow

That would be the case if Aerys ordered them to return to him or Viserys. Otherwise, no. Rhaegar gave them an order, and his death doesn't mean the order is invalid. Nor does the death of Aerys or the coronation of Viserys changes that. Besides, remaining there was the better option, it would've taken some time to reach KL, and guarding the king is also not their top priority. Yes, I know, they stand beside the royal family when they can, but note how they are always given some task as commanders, personal guards to someone or investigating in something when they have to. 7 men does not beat an army, that's why Lewyn Martell and Barristan Selmy were conducting the loyalist army instead of staying beside Aerys.

That being said, the 3 Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy did not break their oath unless Aerys was commanding them to return to him or do anything else but not what they did.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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On 5/29/2021 at 11:49 PM, Mrstrategy said:

The Kingsguard at the tower of joy are traitors since according to Aerys last orders he named  Viserys next in line as ruler of westeros do they have not legal right or authority to defend Jon snow and should had recognized Viserys as new king of westeros and they should have traveled to dragonstone or at least two of them leaving only one Kingsguard to guard Lyanna and Jon snow

This would only be the case if Aerys did not order the KG to be there, and to remain there even if they received word of his death.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This would only be the case if Aerys did not order the KG to be there, and to remain there even if they received word of his death.

It would not necessarily be the case even in the absence of such an order.  One can imagine many scenarios in which the KG could not reasonably be called "traitors".  

Bottom line is that they do not seem to regard themselves as traitors, and the suggestion that they are traitors is based on myriad assumptions, none of which can be shown to be true with any definiteness, nor even IMHO any probability.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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15 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Also if those three betrayed their oaths in some way, I doubt Ned would've remembered them so highly in this thoughts. He would've painted them with the same mental brush that Jaime got for abandoning their posts. Though Selmy gets a pass for... reasons.

Ned only really cherishes Arthur Dayne's memory for some unknown reason. He defends the honor of Aerys' Kingsguard against that of Robert because the treason of the Kingslayer permanently soiled the order but there is no indication he really thinks Whent and Hightower were great guys - nor the other men from Aerys' KG.

He only realizes that Selmy is a great guy after he starts to work with him when he becomes Hand.

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Posted (edited)

You give your oaths one day to one guy who seems sane. You believe in the value of what you're doing. Then this guy becomes plainly unsuited. You don't understand why only a few are seeing that. The son of this guy, the heir, should be your new boss. Whatever, that's not your call. But the son tells you that something, irrelevant of your oaths, need to be done, or everyone will die. Need some evidence this is not madness too. But suppose you believe it. You just believe that is possible.Then what you're doing? What's the purpose of obeying the mad king if you believe everyone will be dead in 20 years? And no one will be there to care. Everything depends on how much Rhaegar (and Lyanna) were convincing. Not knowing, we can't judge.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

You give your oaths one day to one guy who seems sane. You believe in the value of what you're doing. Then this guy becomes plainly unsuited. You don't understand why only a few are seeing that. The son of this guy, the heir, should be your new boss. Whatever, that's not your call. But the son tells you that something, irrelevant of your oaths, need to be done, or everyone will die. Need some evidence this is not madness too. But suppose you believe it. You just believe that is possible.Then what you're doing? What's the purpose of obeying the mad king if you believe everyone will be dead in 20 years? And no one will be there to care. Everything depends on how much Rhaegar (and Lyanna) were convincing. Not knowing, we can't judge.

All very plausible, except that their words at the TOJ implies that, in their own minds, they are honoring their KG oaths, and not sacrificing their KG oaths to a higher purpose.

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On 5/29/2021 at 11:49 PM, Mrstrategy said:

The Kingsguard at the tower of joy are traitors since according to Aerys last orders he named  Viserys next in line as ruler of westeros do they have not legal right or authority to defend Jon snow and should had recognized Viserys as new king of westeros and they should have traveled to dragonstone or at least two of them leaving only one Kingsguard to guard Lyanna and Jon snow

Maybe they were there to clap Lyanna in irons and drag her to King's Landing.  Hightower was loyal to Aerys.  They were there because Aerys commanded them to.  Either to drag Lyanna to King's Landing or to threaten her in order to force Rhaegar to fight the rebels.  

The Kingsguard would not recognize a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna as king.  Not while Viserys is alive.  Aerys would have seen to it that any son of a Stark would not inherit his throne.  It is obvious from Hightower's devotion to Aerys that he would carry out the king's will.  Besides that, a child from out of wedlock is a bastard.  Rhaegar was already married and had children from that marriage.  The Kingsguard were not at the tower of joy to protect a king.  The king was on Dragonstone.  

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6 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

All very plausible, except that their words at the TOJ implies that, in their own minds, they are honoring their KG oaths, and not sacrificing their KG oaths to a higher purpose.

They said things would have been different if they were at the Trident or King Landing. Not that it was a failure of their vows.

Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

They didn't try to explain. Probably thought Ned would not understand, would not believe (Ned believed nothing of what Gared said either). Maybe this vow was one related to the new situation.

3 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The Kingsguard were not at the tower of joy to protect a king

Then why Hightower was still at the ToJ and died for Lyanna and her child? For what higher purpose?

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22 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

It would not necessarily be the case even in the absence of such an order.  One can imagine many scenarios in which the KG could not reasonably be called "traitors".  

Bottom line is that they do not seem to regard themselves as traitors, and the suggestion that they are traitors is based on myriad assumptions, none of which can be shown to be true with any definiteness, nor even IMHO any probability.

I suppose if Rhaegar technically gave the order and then Aerys agreed with it, for whatever reason, this would be true. But this would still mean the KG were at the tower in full accordance with Aerys wishes.

In any scenario in which they are at the tower in defiance of the command or the will of Aerys, they are by definition traitors. He is the king. They are honor bound to obey his commands, not the crown prince's or anyone else's.

So you are correct, they did not consider themselves traitors. Which leads me to believe that they were there on Aerys' orders, and those orders extended to even after Aerys is reported dead -- just as Stannis commanded Massey -- and they technically are bound to a new king, in this case Viserys. Remember, Aerys did not expect to die in the wildfire. He thought it would transform him into a dragon, so he would therefore still be king, king dragon, at this point.

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9 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

They said things would have been different if they were at the Trident or King Landing. Not that it was a failure of their vows.

Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

"the KG does not flee ... Then or now ... We swore a vow."

They see themselves as still acting under their vow, and this is somehow meant to "explain" why in this case they do not flee.

9 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

They didn't try to explain. Probably thought Ned would not understand, would not believe (Ned believed nothing of what Gared said either).

They are guarding one or more dragonspawn babies, and King Robert  is a dragsonspawn babykiller.  King Robert's men do not have any right to this secret, in their eyes.  That's my guess.

9 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Maybe this vow was one related to the new situation.

It relates, directly or indirectly, to their oaths as KG, and also to the new situation.  I'm going to apply Occham's Razor and assume they are referring directly to the oath that all KGs take.

On that guess, I think they are referring to their oath to defend the king and/or their oath to defend the king's family (take your pick).  That "explains" why they cannot flee.  It would violate their oath to give their lives to defend their king ... or his family.

 

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23 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm going to apply Occham's Razor and assume they are referring directly to the oath that all KGs take.

You're assuming the KG were considering Rhaegar was Aerys' heir until Aerys death. And Jon became the legitimate heir (after Aegon death). Nothing Aerys said before dying changed that. This is the most straightforward explanation. OK....

But what if Aerys gave the KG the explicit order to come back and fight the rebellion? You're assuming Aerys commanded only Rhaegar. You're assuming Aerys didn't order the KG directly, thinking they would follow Rhaegar. This is IMO quite stretching. Aerys was their direct commander and he was displeased by what Rhaegar and 2 of his KG had done so far. No less than disappearing in nature after fucking with an abduction, a lord's daughter, and betrothed to another lord. Aerys was mad, but still. IMO so much straightforward is not enough.

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21 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

You're assuming the KG were considering Rhaegar was Aerys' heir until Aerys death. And Jon became the legitimate heir (after Aegon death). Nothing Aerys said before dying changed that. This is the most straightforward explanation. OK....

But what if Aerys gave the KG the explicit order to come back and fight the rebellion? You're assuming Aerys commanded only Rhaegar. You're assuming Aerys didn't order the KG directly, thinking they would follow Rhaegar. This is IMO quite stretching. Aerys was their direct commander and he was displeased by what Rhaegar and 2 of his KG had done so far. No less than disappearing in nature after fucking with an abduction, a lord's daughter, and betrothed to another lord. Aerys was mad, but still. IMO so much straightforward is not enough.

And if this kidnap/rape story is true, or even if it's just an abduction, this is a far madder thing than the Mad King ever did. So why on earth would these three most puissant warriors decided that Aerys is too mad to be king any longer but Rhaegar isn't?

Not even Aegon the Unworthy lost three KG at the same time, including his lord commander.

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5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And if this kidnap/rape story is true, or even if it's just an abduction, this is a far madder thing than the Mad King ever did. So why on earth would these three most puissant warriors decided that Aerys is too mad to be king any longer but Rhaegar isn't?

Not even Aegon the Unworthy lost three KG at the same time, including his lord commander.

If Rhaegar was mad, then these three most puissant warriors had the same madness. Very unlikely. Therefore, all 3 and Rhaegar shared some knowledge GRRM so far keeps for himself.

BTW, Aerys believed the Starks and Barathons were traitors. He didn't give a buck for them and still less for Lyanna. He was suspecting Rhaegar to complot with them. He would have specifically warned Hightower against Rhaegar dealing with the Starks.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/1/2021 at 10:38 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

You're assuming the KG were considering Rhaegar was Aerys' heir until Aerys death. And Jon became the legitimate heir (after Aegon death). Nothing Aerys said before dying changed that. This is the most straightforward explanation. OK....

I'm assuming very little, and specifically not the things you say i am assuming.

My hypothesis is that their KG vow includes a vow to defend the king and/or the king's family with their lives; and that this is the vow that best "explains" why, in this context, the KG does not flee.  The "vow" was presented as an explanation, so it ought to explain.

I did not assume they were defending the king, nor did I rule it out.  Maybe they were only defending the king's family.  I made no assumptions about who they thought or believed was their king at this point.  I did not assume it was Jon Snow.  I did not even assume it was Lyanna's baby (whoever that might be).  If they were defending their King (and not just his family), perhaps it was Baby Aegon, smuggled out of KL.  

Their words can be taken as implying that they do not assume Viserys is their rightful king.  But you can't say much more than that.

Quote

But what if Aerys gave the KG the explicit order to come back and fight the rebellion? You're assuming Aerys commanded only Rhaegar. You're assuming Aerys didn't order the KG directly, thinking they would follow Rhaegar. This is IMO quite stretching. Aerys was their direct commander and he was displeased by what Rhaegar and 2 of his KG had done so far. No less than disappearing in nature after fucking with an abduction, a lord's daughter, and betrothed to another lord. Aerys was mad, but still. IMO so much straightforward is not enough.

Again, I am assuming very little, and certainly not the things you say I am assuming.

Their words at the TOJ, taken at face value, indicate that regard themselves as loyal, and specifically that they were loyal to Aerys at least when he was alive.  I am taking the text at face value, because I can see no reason why ghosts would want to tell lies in a fever dream.

I see no point in spinning fantasies that are contrary to what the text directly seems to tell me.

And how exactly would Aerys give them an "order to come back"?  Would he send a magical email?    And how exactly would they arrive after receiving the magical email?  By jet plane?  By Tardis?  By teleportation?  Okay, you can spin more plausible fantasies than this, to be sure.  But you'd still be spinning fantasies.  None of it changes the fact that if you send someone 1000 miles away from you in a medieval themed fantasy, it severely limits your ability to command that person directly and on a whim.  Which ultimately means we have no real excuse for spinning fantasies in a stretch to reach conclusions that seem contrary to what the text directly tells us.

When Rhaegar appeared in KL, Aerys had an opportunity to give direct commands to Rhaegar.  If Whent, Hightower and Dayne did not appear at the same time, Aerys had no such opportunity to give these KGs direct commands.  And Rhaegar does not necessarily have the magical ability to send them emails either.  If he left them somewhere 1000 miles away, it's a bit late now to change his mind and wish he'd brought them with him.

If Aerys placed these 3 KGs under Rhaegar's command, then they are loyal as long as they obey Rhaegar's orders.    And Aerys is not likely to have an opportunity to countermand those orders, until the 3 KGs appear again in Aerys' presence.  

Edited by Mister Smikes

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4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Would he send a magical email?

No magical emails. Just Hightower order to end this fucking mess, take charge of his men, and deal with the rebellion. Most likely orders. No way to wiggle around this. Hightower is the commander, not a simple soldier, a dumb robot, only executing basic orders.

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Prince Viserys was already safe on Dragonstone.  Furthermore, the three men had no way to leave the mainland.  The only way off, the only friendly port, was in Dorne.  Sunspear.  The loyalists were regrouping their small numbers on Dragonstone and they would have joined Queen Rhaella and King Viserys III later on.  

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