Watch Watched Watching: Danny Ocean's Star Wars with Groundhog Zombies and Aliens at the Edge of 28 Days later than Tomorrow

[Ran]

@Veltigar

Alan Sepinwall had a good piece before the finale aired. And here is his finale review. 

Esquire had a nice interview with Yost as well.

ETA: Have you seen The Americans? Yost wasn't a writer on it, but he was an executive producer and had some input on the story at times. (And... Googling him, I just discovered his first TV writing gig was Nickelodeon's Hey Dude. Holy cow, that takes me back...)

[Zorral]

Ragnarok's quirky charm is due not a little to Thor and Loki's mom.  She's the sort of character we do not see on US television at least.

I enjoy this character so much, her scenes are what I mostly watch for by now, it feels like.

[RumHam]

19 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

 

Oho, I think I strongly disagree with you there.

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The fact that Raylan told Boyd a lie didn't lessen the poignancy of that moment from Raylan's POV. He could have told another deputy to go or he could have delivered the news by phone, but he chose to make the long trip down to Kentucky and risk Boyd seeing through the lie to deliver the news in person.

That harks back to Zachariah's comment to Carl after the death of Pig in the mine shaft earlier in the season. When a man died in the mine, all the people who worked with him, who bonded with him, had to go to his house to tell it to the man's kin in person. To offer their support and condolences.

The fact that Raylan told a lie is not what matters in the scene. It's the fact that he came to comfort Boyd in person that shows you were his heart really lies. They stood for different ideals, but they were still brothers.

 

I think I'll add Elmore to my ever-growing pile of books that I have still to read. It's a great list that he has been responsible for, so I'm curious about the original.

Which also reminds me, hereby a warm invitation to share reviews or retrospectives of Justified. One thing that is frustrating about TV-shows is that it's never that easy to find good comprehensive reviews for them once their done. 

 

I just assumed Kentucky was on his way home from California(?) where he met with Ava. He kinda needed to go in person to show boyd the forged death certificate and ID.

The show at times wants you to think they have this brotherhood or connection but like for most of the final season it seemed like Raylan was eager for Boyd to give him an excuse to kill him. Boyd likewise I think would have gladly killed Raylan given the chance. Any fondness Raylan had for Boyd seems to have evaporated at some point, in my opinion.

He actually wrote a book called Raylan before he died that took elements from the show. I've been meaning to read it forever I have the e-book somewhere. The show then also apparently took elements from that book. So it should be interesting to compare. 

[Mindwalker]

Finished Resident Alien. That was great fun. Good soundtrack, too. Looking forward to season 2.

 

Spoiler

 

Good for Max' parents that they finally found a hobby to share!

Could've sworn that Dr. Perfect Guy was an alien, too.

And I suppose the mayor is the baby that got abducted?

 

Lots of loose threads.

[Ran]

I will be watching when this comes to fruition:

Quote

 20th Century is looking to head back to the high seas as sources tell Deadline the studio is developing a new Master and Commander pic with A Monster Calls scribe Patrick Ness adapting the script. Insiders add it is still early days and no director or talent is attached at this time.

 

[A True Kaniggit]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

I will be watching when this comes to fruition:

 

Thanks. I now know watch I’m watching tonight. 
 

It’s been a while since I’ve watched Master and Commander. 

[Veltigar]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

@Veltigar

Alan Sepinwall had a good piece before the finale aired. And here is his finale review. 

Esquire had a nice interview with Yost as well.

 

Wonderful reads! This was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks to the links, I also saw that Sepinwall did a cool interview with Graham Yost after the finale. I wish there were more articles like this, but apart from the NYT, most are just straightforward reviews of the finale's events.

My favorite quote goes as follows:

Spoiler

With the exception of the largely dismal fifth season(*), "Justified" seemed to have an endless supply of both great lines and great villains, making it the rare show of this era that could, at its best — particularly in the Mags-centered second season and this apocalyptic final one — qualify as both a Great Drama and a Fun Drama at the same time.

Precisely what I meant with Justified being a hybrid show  

2 hours ago, Ran said:

ETA: Have you seen The Americans? Yost wasn't a writer on it, but he was an executive producer and had some input on the story at times. (And... Googling him, I just discovered his first TV writing gig was Nickelodeon's Hey Dude. Holy cow, that takes me back...)

I watched either the first season or just a couple of episodes way back. It never really clicked with me as far I can remember. It's also a subject and period that interests me less overall, so it's not high on my list of priorities. I'm doubting between Warrior season 2, Deadwood season 1 or Friday Night Live season one as my next series. 

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I will be watching when this comes to fruition:

 

Funny, I ordered Elmore Leonard's Fire in the Hole and while I was ordering anyways I also added the M&C novel to my shopping basket. Coincidences.

Bummer that they are not bringing Crowe and Bethany back though.

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I just assumed Kentucky was on his way home from California(?) where he met with Ava. He kinda needed to go in person to show boyd the forged death certificate and ID.

The show at times wants you to think they have this brotherhood or connection but like for most of the final season it seemed like Raylan was eager for Boyd to give him an excuse to kill him. Boyd likewise I think would have gladly killed Raylan given the chance. Any fondness Raylan had for Boyd seems to have evaporated at some point, in my opinion.

He actually wrote a book called Raylan before he died that took elements from the show. I've been meaning to read it forever I have the e-book somewhere. The show then also apparently took elements from that book. So it should be interesting to compare. 

 

 

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

 

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I just assumed Kentucky was on his way home from California(?) where he met with Ava. He kinda needed to go in person to show boyd the forged death certificate and ID.

The show at times wants you to think they have this brotherhood or connection but like for most of the final season it seemed like Raylan was eager for Boyd to give him an excuse to kill him. Boyd likewise I think would have gladly killed Raylan given the chance. Any fondness Raylan had for Boyd seems to have evaporated at some point, in my opinion.

He actually wrote a book called Raylan before he died that took elements from the show. I've been meaning to read it forever I have the e-book somewhere. The show then also apparently took elements from that book. So it should be interesting to compare. 

 

I assume he didn't drive from one coast to another but went by plane? No need to stop in Kentucky after that. 

Spoiler

The forged evidence is also not really essential. Boyd should know Raylan could get forged papers.

I must say that I'm surprised by your take on the Boyd-Raylan dynamic. They are who they are and have their role to play, but that can't mean they don't love each other in a twisted way. I think Esquire summed it up pretty well in the interview that Ran linked to in his post, they are frenemies. They each recognize themselves in the other and went through trauma together by working in the mine. 

 

[briantw]

Regarding Justified...

Spoiler

Boyd and Raylan are basically mirrors of each other.  Boyd is who Raylan might have been if he had stayed in Harlan.  Raylan is who Boyd might have been had he gotten out.  It's the same sort of relationship that Batman has to Joker, which is why Joker has always been his best villain.  I think that's part of why Raylan is so obsessed with bringing Boyd down.  He likes him, because Boyd is a charming, charismatic guy (much like Raylan), but he also sees the twisted reflection of himself.

As a side note, Goggins would make an amazing Joker. 

 

[RumHam]

46 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

I assume he didn't drive from one coast to another but went by plane? No need to stop in Kentucky after that. 

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Right, but you could stop in Kentucky I assume without much trouble, It's not the same as making a special trip to go see Boyd. Also since Rachel sent him the newspaper image of Ada it's possible he had to visit her and either lie and say it wasn't Ava, or convince her to let things lie.  

I think early on they were sorta frenemies but as I said that seemed to me to have changed. He stays in Kentucky just to get Boyd, and it seems at times like he'd be just as happy with Boyd dead as in jail. 

I think it's possible to recognize yourself in someone else and hate them for it.  Honestly while I love the show I don't think it's really written from that psychological angle where you can really say one way or another. It's just not that kinda show, really. The characters often say and do what the plot requires. Like you said it occupies a weird space between prestige tv and like a ridiculous procedural where the guy's thing is that he shoots everyone.

Hey they never resolved the mexican cartel plot did they? Boyd kills some goons and the season ends and there are no repercussions at all, right? We never see Mr. Yoon again. You'd think they'd get him in prison. 

 

[DMC]

14 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Spoiler

Did it happen in the cabin in bullet vile or had she been pregnant before and does that explain her constant back and forth between supporting Boyd or not?

 

Spoiler

Interesting question.  I've always preferred to think she found out after all that, or at least that the pregnancy was not a factor in her ambivalence/indecision.  I think that kinda cheapens it.

 

3 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Oho, I think I strongly disagree with you there.

Yeah I agree with you.  It may not have been the only reason, but Raylan trekked all that way was because he cared.  Boyd calls him out on it and Raylan does not object.

3 hours ago, Ran said:

Googling him, I just discovered his first TV writing gig was Nickelodeon's Hey Dude. Holy cow, that takes me back

Ha!  That's awesome.

[RumHam]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

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Interesting question.  I've always preferred to think she found out after all that, or at least that the pregnancy was not a factor in her ambivalence/indecision.  I think that kinda cheapens it.

 

Yeah I agree with you.  It may not have been the only reason, but Raylan trekked all that way was because he cared.  Boyd calls him out on it and Raylan does not object.

Ha!  That's awesome.

He cared about Ava, in my opinion. All of that was to keep Boyd from learning of his son.

There was also probably a bit of "the kid shouldn't have to learn his father is a murdering asshole." (RIP Shea Wigham's character)

I mean the guy shot constable Bob!

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Spoiler

He cared about Ava, in my opinion. All of that was to keep Boyd from learning of his son.

 

Spoiler

I view the final season as kind of like the dissertation chapter to the pilot's thesis.  The pilot concludes with Raylan shooting Boyd - but clearly deciding not to kill him - and then apologizing to Boyd.  When Ava asks why he apologized, Raylan says "we dug coal together.

The entire final season is Raylan deciding whether to kill Boyd or not.  In one of the first episodes he goes to Art and asks why he's not just killing him - in the same fashion as he discusses when he's shooting at Boyd in the woods right after Boyd shot Bob.  That conversation is Raylan basically admitting his urge to kill Boyd is him embracing everything he's tried not to become - embodied in Boyd himself.

 

[briantw]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I view the final season as kind of like the dissertation chapter to the pilot's thesis.  The pilot concludes with Raylan shooting Boyd - but clearly deciding not to kill him - and then apologizing to Boyd.  When Ava asks why he apologized, Raylan says "we dug coal together.

The entire final season is Raylan deciding whether to kill Boyd or not.  In one of the first episodes he goes to Art and asks why he's not just killing him - in the same fashion as he discusses when he's shooting at Boyd in the woods right after Boyd shot Bob.  That conversation is Raylan basically admitting his urge to kill Boyd is him embracing everything he's tried not to become - embodied in Boyd himself.

 

 

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, briantw said:

 

Love that scene.  Also love how that's Nucky's brother.

[Nictarion]

On 5/31/2021 at 7:16 PM, Corvinus85 said:

For the first time this year I went to a theater, and saw A Quiet Place Part II. There were only two other people there at showtime I selected.

The movie had the same great tension that the first one had and it looked better. The acting was again on point. Cillian Murphy's character was solid. But I still have a hard time believing that human civilization would collapse because of these creatures.

Saw this tonight and I really enjoyed it. This was the first movie I’ve seen at the theater since before the pandemic for me as well. Felt great to see something on the big screen again. And like you said, it looks really good. John Krasinski did a great job shooting this. I just read that he’s not directing the next installment (due in 2023), which is kind of disappointing. 

[Argonath Diver]

Re: Justified final scene:

 

Spoiler

I interpreted it that Rayland was mostly motivated to tell Boyd in person like that to be truly convincing that she died, to guarantee Boyd wouldn't seek her out eventually and expose their kid to his sordid life. Rayland still felt some empathy for Boyd, I think, in that last moment - but it was mostly to save that kid. I wouldn't argue with an interpretation that all that was burned out of him, though, and it was him faking even the "We dug coal together" line to assure Boyd it was out of their connection he came, and not another motivation (ie, the kid).

 

[Veltigar]

12 hours ago, briantw said:

Regarding Justified...

  Hide contents

Boyd and Raylan are basically mirrors of each other.  Boyd is who Raylan might have been if he had stayed in Harlan.  Raylan is who Boyd might have been had he gotten out.  It's the same sort of relationship that Batman has to Joker, which is why Joker has always been his best villain.  I think that's part of why Raylan is so obsessed with bringing Boyd down.  He likes him, because Boyd is a charming, charismatic guy (much like Raylan), but he also sees the twisted reflection of himself.

As a side note, Goggins would make an amazing Joker. 

 

Agreed on both accounts! Although I have to admit I'd like Goggins to play a hero for once. It's one of the reasons why I'm curious about that sitcom he had going recently. A great actor like that, it's a shame he's only getting roles as a villain.

Regarding the end

Spoiler

I also think it's a momentous decision for Raylan not to shoot Boyd in the barn earlier in the episode. Raylan doesn't grow throughout almost the entirety of the series as a character, but in that moment he definitively chooses to embrace the light.

And because he chose the light, he's able to love Boyd. If Raylan would have taken his shot at him, he would have forever hated Boyd as a proxy for hating himself. Now that he finally got out of Harlan though, he can fully empathize and pity with Boyd and the scared and beaten-down little boys they both were once.

 

11 hours ago, RumHam said:

 

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Right, but you could stop in Kentucky I assume without much trouble, It's not the same as making a special trip to go see Boyd. Also since Rachel sent him the newspaper image of Ada it's possible he had to visit her and either lie and say it wasn't Ava, or convince her to let things lie.  

 

 

He could give her a call as well. I know all you Americans love your cars and interstate travel, but it isn't very practical now is it? 

11 hours ago, RumHam said:

 

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I think early on they were sorta frenemies but as I said that seemed to me to have changed. He stays in Kentucky just to get Boyd, and it seems at times like he'd be just as happy with Boyd dead as in jail. 

I think it's possible to recognize yourself in someone else and hate them for it.  Honestly while I love the show I don't think it's really written from that psychological angle where you can really say one way or another. It's just not that kinda show, really. The characters often say and do what the plot requires. Like you said it occupies a weird space between prestige tv and like a ridiculous procedural where the guy's thing is that he shoots everyone.

 

 

I think you are selling the show short here. I think the psychological complexities of their relationship were intentional put in there by the writers. Of course they were lucky to have two of the very best actors out there to embody the relationship they had written, but definitely intentional on that aspect. 

11 hours ago, RumHam said:

 

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Hey they never resolved the mexican cartel plot did they? Boyd kills some goons and the season ends and there are no repercussions at all, right? We never see Mr. Yoon again. You'd think they'd get him in prison. 

 

 

 

It's time for a

Spoiler

prison spin-off with Boyd!

 

11 hours ago, DMC said:

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Interesting question.  I've always preferred to think she found out after all that, or at least that the pregnancy was not a factor in her ambivalence/indecision.  I think that kinda cheapens it.

 

That's a good point. 

Spoiler

The hurt she put to Boyd when saying she thought that was what he would do, despite him being fully aware that he could never bring himself to pull the trigger would indeed be lessened if she had manipulated him.

 

11 hours ago, DMC said:

  Hide contents

Interesting question.  I've always preferred to think she found out after all that, or at least that the pregnancy was not a factor in her ambivalence/indecision.  I think that kinda cheapens it.

 

Yeah I agree with you.  It may not have been the only reason, but Raylan trekked all that way was because he cared.  Boyd calls him out on it and Raylan does not object.

Ha!  That's awesome.

11 hours ago, RumHam said:

 

  Hide contents

He cared about Ava, in my opinion. All of that was to keep Boyd from learning of his son.

There was also probably a bit of "the kid shouldn't have to learn his father is a murdering asshole." (RIP Shea Wigham's character)

I mean the guy shot constable Bob!

 

Spoiler

Constable Bob

had it coming 

I think it is just not in Raylan's character to act as if he cared if he really deep down didn't at all. Sure he wants to 

Spoiler

protect Ava's son from becoming just another Crowder or Givens, but there are better ways to do that in my opinion and it doesn't mean that he doesn't genuinely feel sad that he has to deny Boyd both the love of his life and his only child.

 

11 hours ago, DMC said:

  Hide contents

I view the final season as kind of like the dissertation chapter to the pilot's thesis.  The pilot concludes with Raylan shooting Boyd - but clearly deciding not to kill him - and then apologizing to Boyd.  When Ava asks why he apologized, Raylan says "we dug coal together.

The entire final season is Raylan deciding whether to kill Boyd or not.  In one of the first episodes he goes to Art and asks why he's not just killing him - in the same fashion as he discusses when he's shooting at Boyd in the woods right after Boyd shot Bob.  That conversation is Raylan basically admitting his urge to kill Boyd is him embracing everything he's tried not to become - embodied in Boyd himself.

 

The bolded has pretty much been confirmed by Graham Yost. There are a lot of deliberate echo's in there. Also totally agree with the latter part of your post here.

11 hours ago, briantw said:

 

I was taken out of this scene a little bit because I was googling who Hut McKean was supposed to be. Turned out that he's neither a real historical figure or a previous Justified character but it was enough to sort of throw me off.

 

 

 

[Mexal]

Last nights Mythic Quest was spectacular. This show is so much better than it has any right to be. 

[Veltigar]

Returning back to the topic of Justified's final scene, the New York Times had an excellent interview with Goggins and Olyphant which had some nice tidbits in it concerning that final scene:

Spoiler

Q.

There was that final scene in the prison where Raylan and Boyd did seem to arrive at some sort of mutual understanding. What was that like to shoot?

A.

GOGGINS: It was my last day and it really snuck up on me, the exchange between those two people. We read it on the page and when we stepped in to do it, it became something completely different. It was very, very cathartic for me, as Boyd, and I think it was for Tim. Boyd needed him to acknowledge that he did love Ava, that that was real, and that their friendship was more than the adversarial dynamic that they had been living in for the last three seasons. That their prior friendship and their mutual struggles amounted to something more than just anger. That was summed up in the phrase, “We dug coal together.” I was elated and somehow released from this burden for Boyd after that scene, and I just cried like a baby and just hugged Tim, and hugged and thanked all those incredible people. It’s there one minute and then it’s over.

 

[Ran]

@Veltigar

I would definitely recommend Deadwood, just to keep the Timothy Olyphant streak going. I can't speak to FNL, never having watched it (but I know it's very critically acclaimed), but Deadwood is way better than Warrior and you won't suffer too much waiting on that one.