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The Dawn Sword


LynnS

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7 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I would even take this a step further, and suggest that Melisandre's "Red Sword of Heroes" is in fact just one aspect of the magic sword, as one color is one aspect of a rainbow.

I would also entertain the idea that the Red sword of heroes could be another sword altogether.  One that can be forged by plunging valyrian steel into the heart of someone who has been transformed by holy fire.  Our Mel is playing the part of Nissa Nissa to Stannis' Azor Ahai.

Bran's vision of Jaime suggests that he will shine with a light of his own at some point in the future:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said.

 

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32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I would also entertain the idea that the Red sword of heroes could be another sword altogether.  One that can be forged by plunging valyrian steel into the heart of someone who has been transformed by holy fire.  Our Mel is playing the part of Nissa Nissa to Stannis' Azor Ahai.

Bran's vision of Jaime suggests that he will shine with a light of his own at some point in the future:

 

I definitely don't subscribe to this theory. One reason being that it isn't clear Valyria had even been founded when the Long Night ended.

Not sure where you are going with the Jaime bit...

I see Jaime as a shadow armored like the sun:

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Tywin Lannister's battle armor put his son Jaime's gilded suit to shame. His greatcloak was sewn from countless layers of cloth-of-gold, so heavy that it barely stirred even when he charged, so large that its drape covered most of his stallion's hindquarters when he took the saddle. No ordinary clasp would suffice for such a weight, so the greatcloak was held in place by a matched pair of miniature lionesses crouching on his shoulders, as if poised to spring. Their mate, a male with a magnificent mane, reclined atop Lord Tywin's greathelm, one paw raking the air as he roared. All three lions were wrought in gold, with ruby eyes. His armor was heavy steel plate, enameled in a dark crimson, greaves and gauntlets inlaid with ornate gold scrollwork. His rondels were golden sunbursts, all his fastenings were gilded, and the red steel was burnished to such a high sheen that it shone like fire in the light of the rising sun.

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion VIII

Now does this make Jaime (or Tyrion) the Sun's Son? 

Does Jaime giving Brienne (of House Tarth, whose arms are the sun and the moon) the sword Oathkeeper (made by Tywin from Ned's Ice) fit into this?

Lots of questions, but I have very few answers... haha

the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness

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The idea that a sword's color or brightness could be a reflection of the bearer is a lovely concept.  I have long held that these swords will all be called into play with chosen, proven or even forged heroes to wield them.   This is an integral part  of the magic in our tale and makes a lot of thematic sense to me.   The Lightning Lord seems to truly be the only character we've actually seen put a sword to flame by touching his blood--albeit filled with the fire of life--still, the only one to light a sword er organically.  We know Stannis' Lightbringer is enchanted, but that doesn't count it entirely out of the running as magic swords go.    This could be a good place to go into our various magical swords' origins and what it could mean, but better to stay on topic.    The magic in any of these swords is a wonder.  15 named Valyrian Steel swords of unequal balance and weight.  They act of their own will. Enchanted or just part of the overall magic process?  Legendary ancestral Ice of House Stark, Kings of Winter--mysteriously disappeared in the mists of time to be "replaced" by Valyrian Steel?  What does that say about Ice?  We have a doozie of an origin legend in Dawn and Starfall.  I think white=purity and have to remind myself that the good guys wear black here so what do these beautiful descriptions of Dawn speak of if it is all bad?   I can't accept a simple Other-- with all it's depiction Dawn may be telling the origin story or part of one, of the Others.  In which case I throw in completely with the moonstone crowd--Dawn is not of this world, only it's Heavens and their sundering.  This sword really is Other.  The Other's swords speak as much to their ability and skill as the arakh does the Dothraki.  They look like children's aluminum foil swords.  Where Dawn appears to display light The Others' sword seems to trap it.  Are the Others we have seen Swords of the Morning or Evening even?  It's a fun thing to weigh.  Lightbringer could be a sword or only part of an idea containing many parts and people.   May never be 100% clear on that.  Stannis' sword has a reputation--even stupid Ramsay Bolton wants a look at it.  I think there is lots of room in this story and its magical items inventory to allow some speculation on where we will be duped and all these swords really are for in the magical landscape.   

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1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Now does this make Jaime (or Tyrion) the Sun's Son? 

There is no doubt that Jaime stands in his father's shadow.  We could say the same of Tyrion.  What I'm talking about is not the armor itself specifically.  That only serves to identify Jaime in Bran's coma dream.  I think Bran sees Jaime shining from within something that makes his armor look like the sun.  We have an example of Melisandre doing just that.  How Jaime arrives at this point. I don't know.  But the story of the Just Maid and the Perfect Knight may be a preview of things to come.  Not forgetting that Jaime is a Targ bastard and we are also talking about the power of king's blood.

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40 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

The idea that a sword's color or brightness could be a reflection of the bearer is a lovely concept.

Nicely put!  That was an eloquent description of magical swords!

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm trying to visualize what ripples of color look like.  Alive meaning colors pulsing or rippling along the blade like ripples you might see in a pool of water.  Does that sound right?

Imagine a liquid, like a white liquid. It could be milk, almond or animal. Now imagine small waves, ripples even, in the liquid.

That's what I meant I when I said rippling milk.

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Some additional uses of milkglass:

 

Very interesting. Milkglass always conjured more opal-esque, translucent murky white blade in my mind, but especially the ghost grass description doesn’t really rhyme with that. When describing the ghost grass however it seems to mean porcelain like super white, like the images you linked. 
Whether those qualities change depending on the wielder is indeed an interesting concept. 

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3 hours ago, TheSamsa said:

The names white, blue or super blue steel stems from the fact in which paper they where wrapped in.
Sometimes called white paper steel or blue paper steel.

Really?  Doesn't some steel have a blue-ish patina?

 

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21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Really?  Doesn't some steel have a blue-ish patina?

 

Found some link: https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/ct/steel-types-for-kitchen-knives.htm

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Aogami is Japanese for ‘blue paper’. Blue Paper Steel was named after the paper the manufacturer Hitachi packages steel in. It is a variable of so called White Paper Steel;

 

sorry for being off-topic, just found it an interesting tidbit

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9 minutes ago, TheSamsa said:

Found some link: https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/ct/steel-types-for-kitchen-knives.htm

 

sorry for being off-topic, just found it an interesting tidbit

That's not off-topic.  That's very interesting in fact.  The description of the sharpness of Japanese steel sounds very much like the Dawn Sword which barely touches Jaime's shoulder but draws blood (when Arthur dubs him a knight).

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21 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sam also describes the WW he slays a 'thin as a sword'.  The sword of the Others made without metal calls to mind Martin's statement that we will be surprised with what the Others can do with ice.  Not only can they make weapons, but armor that reflects the light to make them near invisible in the background.  Their armor acts like a mirror.  So I wonder about the story of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield.

The Others swords are translucent whereas milkglass is opaque.

And . . . if they make things like weapons and armor out of ice, then presumably they make buildings and other structures out of ice, since that's pretty much all they have to work with in the LoAW. So that begs the question, who is more likely to have built a great wall of ice, which also reflects light and shimmers and does all kinds of other weird visual things?

Yes, translucent is different from opaque. But the Others are different from humans, so maybe it loses some kind of Other magical energy when wielded by a human? I dunno, I'm just guessing at this point.

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13 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And . . . if they make things like weapons and armor out of ice, then presumably they make buildings and other structures out of ice, since that's pretty much all they have to work with in the LoAW. So that begs the question, who is more likely to have built a great wall of ice, which also reflects light and shimmers and does all kinds of other weird visual things?

Yes, translucent is different from opaque. But the Others are different from humans, so maybe it loses some kind of Other magical energy when wielded by a human? I dunno, I'm just guessing at this point.

Do they need buildings of any sort?  The Wall stops them from crossing a barrier; its a weir or a dam made of magic.  Melisandre also says that Jon can access that magic if he chooses.  It's also a form of ice magic but who can say if it  includes fire magic in a balance that gives it the same properties as obsidion or frozen fire.  So far, this is the only thing we know will kill a WW or destroy the spell holding them together.

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Just now, LynnS said:

Do they need buildings of any sort?  The Wall stops them from crossing a barrier; its a weir or a dam made of magic.  Melisandre also says that Jon can access that magic if he chooses.  It's also a form of ice magic but who can say if includes fire magic in a balance that gives it the same properties as obsidion or frozen fire.  So far, this is the only thing we know will kill a WW or destroy the spell holding them together.

They're living beings. I would think they need shelter just like any other living being, particularly now that it's getting unusually warm.

We don't know the Wall stops Others. All we know is that Coldhands can't cross because it's warded. And even then, we don't know if the ward affects him because he's a wight or for some other reason. So as of yet, we have no direct information that the Wall stops the Others. And at the very least, since the Others can literally glide over the top of snow, which is basically ice, without breaking it, then the actual ice of the Wall should not be a significant barrier to them. So, yeah, maybe there is some obsidian in there or some other magic that blocks them. But if that's the case, then they could have built the rest out of wood or stone or just dirt, which are found in abundance all along the Wall's path. Ice would be the last thing any rational person would use in order to prevent a magical ice creature from crossing, no?

 

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18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

They're living beings. I would think they need shelter just like any other living being, particularly now that it's getting unusually warm.

I'm not sure of this claim.  They may be a form of life changed by ice magic in the same way that Mel is changed by fire magic.  They are made of ice and snow and cold according to Mel.   Martin said that they are held together by a spell.  But he has also said they represent death and darkness and hate.  I think they are the souls of the dead re-purposed long ago by the COTF  and their greenseers.  I think originally the WW's were an army of COTF defending their land and gods from the First Men.  The defense of which was later given over to the First Men; who then provided human greenseers as part of the Pact.  

The Wall is one of the Hinges of the World and the magic that raised it is old magic and powerful.  What is it's purpose? Why does it stop Coldhands?  Why can't wights pass on their own accord?  What do the wildlings know that makes it imperative that they get south of the Wall before the WWs show up?  

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On 6/1/2021 at 2:05 PM, LynnS said:

Sam also describes the WW he slays a 'thin as a sword'.  The sword of the Others made without metal calls to mind Martin's statement that we will be surprised with what the Others can do with ice.  Not only can they make weapons, but armor that reflects the light to make them near invisible in the background.  Their armor acts like a mirror.  So I wonder about the story of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield.

The Others swords are translucent whereas milkglass is opaque.

Is it opaque though? Some milk glass can be translucent and based on Ned's memory of it being "alive with light", I tend to think that Dawn was honed to a point where it has a translucent quality. If it was fully opaque, it couldn't be alive with light. 

I don't remember if it's stated in the books, but Ned's memory suggests that the confrontation with Arthur occurred either at sunrise or sunset. With the duality of Jon's nature and his birth occurring at the same time, it makes sense the fight took place at one of these times. And of course, as the sword is name Dawn and Arthur says, "now it begins," it was most likely at sunrise.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that most of the scenes you reference as being like Dawn's description most likely occurred at either sunrise or sunset for the reasons I reference. George is always consistent in his symbolism. 

The only scene that doesn't seem to take place at either of those times seems to be Jon's description of the Wall being alive with blue light. This is consistent symbolism for a couple of reasons. First, the icy Wall is compared to the Others on multiple occasions for obvious reasons and blue is associated with cold. More importantly, Jon is describing the Wall when the sun is shining in the full light of a clear day and because of how our eyes see light, the color would have to be blue.

To me, "alive with light" suggests that Dawn’s blade is almost like a prism that bends the light of the sun at either sunrise or sunset. The light that Ned saw were likely pinks and reds and yellows of sunrise, not blue.

Dawn is symbolic of the dawn and the fire of the returned sun. I don't think that we will ever see it described as shining with blue light. That wouldn’t fit its symbolism. For it to be alive with blue light, its name would have to be "Afternoon" or "Day?"

For this reason, while I think that its color is like that of the Others, I don't think that it was their sword. I do however think that it might have been the sword of the Nights King from before he made or led the Others.

As crazy as it sounds, I think that the description of Dawn being "alive with light" opens the possibility that its purpose is not to be wielded during a great Long Night battle but rather to be used at the dawn. It can't be "alive with light" during the Long Night. It would be “pale with moonlight” as the Others and their swords are described.

As George describes it as "alive with light", it means that at some point, we the reader will see such a scene play out on the page and so for this to happen, I think that the battle must occur at dawn or sunset. Again, considering the name, it must be at dawn.

I think the theory that Dawn was forged from a piece of moon rock is quite likely correct. George is a child of the 60s-70s when trips to the moon were a big part of American life. If I had to guess, I would say that he was visualizing Dawn being made from one of the rocks astronauts brought back from the moon during the 60s and 70s.  Moon Rocks like the ones shown on Wikipedia. This means that there is a duality to Dawn in that it's a tool of the night that is potentially stronger during the day.

 

 

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Milkglass!  Semen in a glass tube!  Jk.  Those old style tubes of fluorescent light.  Lightbringer is not a sword.  It's a light emitting device.  The darkness retreated before the device as the saying goes.  The Others shun the light.  Only light can conquer darkness.  

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2 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

Milkglass!  Jk.  Those old style tubes of fluorescent light.  Lightbringer is not a sword.  It's a light emitting device.  The darkness retreated before the device as the saying goes.  The Others shun the light.  Only light can conquer darkness.  

I just realized what JK means.  My nephew has given his eleven year old son permission to use salty language, but never in front of women.  Rules to live by.  Save it for the locker room, OK. 

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