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Formula 1 2020/2021: Shits getting crazier


TheLastWolf

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26 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

We can even argue Max slowing down wasn't that fast,


We can, but we shouldn't, especially if we're building our entire argument off the FIA report that says that Hamilton did have the possibility of overtaking- since that very report not only says Verstappen did brake suddenly and erratically but gives the exact numbers behind that.

33 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

since why would he in his right mind would do that, once he assumes Hamilton will pass him with close to top speed.

 

Not only does the data contradict you, but Verstappen has far more to gain from a crash, being in the lead from a championship  - and far more history for putting himself in dangerous positions where the other guy has to bail to avoid one, including earlier in this very race. Nothing about this situation supports your narrative. Between the two of them Verstappen is by far more the kind of wanker who'd deliberately cause a crash.

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3 hours ago, kungtotte said:

Hamilton doesn't pass Verstappen there because if he does then Verstappen will just re-pass him again using DRS, something which we've seen happen frequently (a good example is Monza this season). If you give a position up and time it so you get DRS, you're effectively cheating your way past the guy in front, albeit by a roundabout way.

Verstappen claimed that he was giving the place back the second he was informed by the team, which does appear to be the case. It was just extremely fortuitous for him that it happened when he was close to the DRS line (and is probably why he lifted and then downshifted to try to shed speed without actually breaking).

The next time around, where he did deliberately wait until close to the DRS line before giving the place back, was more blatant in that's what he was doing, but even he realised that was dodgy AF and gave the place back again (which his engineer then noted was unnecessary, because they'd already gotten the penalty and hadn't been asked to give the place back a third time, but then Verstappen noted his tyres had gone anyway so it was all a moot point).

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I know full well why they didn't touch it given the title battle, but brake-checking like Verstappen did should always and unequivocally mean you are DSQ from the race. It is always a dangerous move and should be strictly enforced. But given that they don't bother to enforce their own rules, or don't bother to enforce them consistently, I am not surprised they went the way they did. And I am sure that Liberty Media are rubbing their hands over a tied WDC battle going into the final round, which hopefully has had no impact at all on the stewards' decision throughout the season but it wouldn't be the first time they were less than neutral.

I don't think Verstappen did break-test him (and the data doesn't support if he did) because in that kind of collision it's much more likely Verstappen goes off then Hamilton: Hamilton's front wing could be snapped off but he could make it back to the pits, switch noses and get back out there, whilst Verstappen losing his rear wing and tyres means a DNF (Verstappen noted that the impact damaged the tyres, reducing their lifespan even further).

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Also an interesting stat that I found out the other day: 30 out of 71 times has the WDC been decided in the final race, a number which is higher than I expected especially given that we've had several years where one team/driver has been head and shoulders above everyone else (Schumacher, Hamilton, Vettel to some degree).

That does seem unlikely, but then back in the old days the points given out for F1 were much, much lower, so it was extremely difficult for drivers to pull out massive margins over their championship rivals, plus reliability was absolutely appalling right to the 1990s and even the early 2000s, with cars routinely not finishing and tyre blow outs being much more common (not to mention cars just running out of fuel). So the margins never opening out very much isn't as surprising.

I have seen arguments that the current point system is far too generous, especially the 6-point (potentially 7, with fastest lap) gap between 1st and 2nd, and it should maybe be looked at and replaced by a 4-point difference instead. Of course, the counter argument is that with the larger point margin, it means you can make up the difference pretty quickly if necessary (as exemplified by both Hamilton and Verstappen this season).

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The shorter seasons of the past also contributed, some of them were only 12 races and even if they ran today's point system it would be hard to build a commanding gap with so few races.

And what do you mean the data doesn't support it? The telemetry says Verstappen braked with 69 bar pressure for a 2.4G deceleration, which is equivalent to about half the braking force in one of the biggest braking zones. So he really stepped on the brakes for sure, it wasn't a brush of the pedal.

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18 hours ago, polishgenius said:

We can, but we shouldn't, especially if we're building our entire argument off the FIA report that says that Hamilton did have the possibility of overtaking- since that very report not only says Verstappen did brake suddenly and erratically but gives the exact numbers behind that.

Well, isn't the report contradictionary itself? 

 

18 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Not only does the data contradict you, but Verstappen has far more to gain from a crash, being in the lead from a championship  - and far more history for putting himself in dangerous positions where the other guy has to bail to avoid one, including earlier in this very race. Nothing about this situation supports your narrative. Between the two of them Verstappen is by far more the kind of wanker who'd deliberately cause a crash.

The data contradicts the report as well then. Verstappen crashing both of them isnt a life insurance either, given that that way his title isn't guaranteed, since there is a race left which could end in any ways. And agains, close to same situations had been judged entirely the other way around. 

As I said, I'm said about this only, I loved this year had a weight, but I know people who are straightforward disgusted by what the Mercedes does, being Mercedes supporters themselves. 

But let's agree to disagree, I'm not into convincing anyone, just telling my opinion. 

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35 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The data contradicts the report as well then.


What? The report clearly says that Verstappen stepped suddenly on the brakes. Likewise:
 

 

38 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Well, isn't the report contradictionary itself? 


How? I mean, it's almost moot to your original argument because if you're now saying the report can't be right then it rather undermines your original argument that use the report as their underpinning, but either way: the report says that Verstappen slowed and gave Hamilton room but that he then braked suddenly. Both those things are true, the incident carried on for several seconds. 
 

 

36 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Verstappen crashing both of them isnt a life insurance either, given that that way his title isn't guaranteed,

 

Of course not, but it's better for him than for Hamilton. Hamilton gains absolutely nothing from both of them not finishing in that situation, and would have risked the title being already over if he'd not finished and Verstappen had won.

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And a last-minute plot twist: Verstappen on pole for the last race of the season, a race he won last year and which the pole-sitter has won for each of the last six years in a row (in 2014 Rosberg got pole, but had a poor start and Hamilton nailed him at the first corner).

Verstappen also has Perez two places behind to act as backup, whilst Bottas qualified poorly and only scraped 6th, squeezed between the Ferraris (I'd expect Leclerc to get him off the line).

It does look like the Red Bull is marginally faster over one lap on the softs, which Max is starting on, but Lewis's race pace looks potentially superior. I'd say there's nothing between them for the final race tomorrow. Being on absolutely equal points also removes all the complexities from the equation: whomever finishes in front, wins. If they end up equal (both crash out or somehow both finish below #10), Verstappen wins based on race wins up to this point.

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7 hours ago, Werthead said:

It does look like the Red Bull is marginally faster over one lap on the softs, which Max is starting on, but Lewis's race pace looks potentially superior. I'd say there's nothing between them for the final race tomorrow.

I'm not sure anyone could predict with any certainty who is going to come out on top. Usually even for a last-race title decider one of the drivers seems to be the favourite (even if they might not always end up winning) but I couldn't say which one of them it would be this time.

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If you wrote up a summary of the season and handed it in as a screenplay, nobody would think it was realistic. What a finish. F1 has gained so many new fans over the last year and the sport will continue to grow moving forward. 

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That was a crazy ending. It was very unlucky for Lewis who was clearly the faster driver today and didn't really make any mistakes but just got snookered by the Latifi safety car. While it's good that we didn't have an anti-climactic ending behind the safety and got some action on track it's a pity that it was so chaotic as the safety car was ending since it does distract a bit from Verstappen's achievement. Looking over the whole championship I think either driver would have been a worthy winner and Max isn't the one making decisions about what happens to lapped cars.

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I think there will be a lot of controversy after that, Merc will be feeling like it was daylight robbery but them trying to tell the race director what to do makes me think sucked in. Plus I dislike max slightly less than Lewis so I'm kind of glad he won. What a finish to the season no matter what happens post race.

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I don't think they'll reverse the decision post-race, that'd be far too controversial.

In hindsight they should have red flagged the race. Given both Lewis and Max the chance to change tyres, then go for a standing start with 5 laps to go. Straight shoot-out to the win. Doing it the way they did was weird, and Mercedes have a reasonable complaint in that they were going by the regulations, under which it was unnecessary to pit Lewis. If they'd know what was going to happen - the stewards and FIA making up a compromise rule on the spot - they would have pitted Lewis as well. So I get why they're aggrieved and have challenged the result.

The stewards did make an almighty fuck-up on the first lap by not ordering Lewis to give the place back to Max though, and the near-uniform consensus that they made a mistake there may have made them feel like they should be more lenient towards Red Bull later on, which isn't really how the sport should be working.

Great results up and down the grid though. Outstanding 4th place by Tsunoda and 3rd place by Sainz, who proved a better driver than Leclerc over the season (though Leclerc had some terrible luck, particularly in Monaco), and Norris making a strong return to form after McLaren clearly stopped developing the car after the summer break to focus on 2022.

Slightly sad to see Raikkonnen leaving. And in only three months, we'll be back on again.

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I'm not at all a fan of Hamilton and really would like for Verstappen to be the champion, but seriously, not under these circumstances... The FIA is a shit show for ignoring their own rules for sake of having some last second racing, which effectively gifted Verstappen the victory on a silver platter after Mercedes had no reason to make Hamilton change his tyres.

It just... all feels very artificial...

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The season round-up was quite entertaining. Especially Vettel getting out of his car and sidling up to Lewis's car. "I'm going to touch Lewis's rear wing." "DON'T YOU DARE!" Daniel and Vettel being flummoxed on what they were going to miss about Kimi leaving. "...the silence?"

Lando flying off the track at one point:

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"Lando, what damage you have?"

"Er, talent."

 

The sheer volume of shit-bants between Max, Lando, George and Charles has been quite entertaining as well.

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Masi has to lose his job I think. He clearly made up a rule on the spot to get an on track finish to the championship which is I think the right idea but you either leave all the lapped cars or let them all unlap themselves earlier. What happened is clearly contrary to how the rules are written.

Red bull played the card they were given which was basically a gift but that's not Red bulls fault so I can't see it being overturned unless they penalise max for overtaking Lewis under safety car that was really silly of max to get up beside him like that, it's the only way I can see the result of the race being overturned in favour of Merc.

Call it payback for Lewis punting max at Silverstone call it even and leave the results as they finished and sack Masi.

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5 minutes ago, lmanion said:

Masi has to lose his job I think. He clearly made up a rule on the spot to get an on track finish to the championship which is I think the right idea but you either leave all the lapped cars or let them all unlap themselves earlier. What happened is clearly contrary to how the rules are written.

Red bull played the card they were given which was basically a gift but that's not Red bulls fault so I can't see it being overturned unless they penalise max for overtaking Lewis under safety car that was really silly of max to get up beside him like that, it's the only way I can see the result of the race being overturned in favour of Merc.

Call it payback for Lewis punting max at Silverstone call it even and leave the results as they finished and sack Masi.

Max was up alongside him but wasn't in front at the restart, so that was borderline but not over the line.

My takeaway here is they should have red-flagged it and seen what would happen with both cars on softs from a restart with five laps to go. I suspect Hamilton would have edged it. Ah, hindsight.

Extreme class from Hamilton and his father to congratulate Max and his family even though they must have been feeling aggrieved, but more at the stewards than their opponent.

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3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

If you wrote up a summary of the season and handed it in as a screenplay, nobody would think it was realistic. What a finish. F1 has gained so many new fans over the last year and the sport will continue to grow moving forward. 

Today was the first race I've watched in years because of all the hype. Honestly the shambles of the ending has put me off ever watching it again. Yes it was dramatic but as a fair sporting contest? Just nonsense.

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