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Better Call Saul


SeanF

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Just now, Le Cygne said:

Well, Jimmy was afraid after Kim told that story to Lalo... Jimmy knew it was flimsy and Lalo would figure it out. And he did. Jimmy was scared to death after Lalo left, they went to the hotel and he wanted to stay under cover until he found out he was dead.

It was a flimsy story, she did her lawyer act on him, but it didn't hold up at all. Lalo is not stupid, and then he found out someone with a lot of power was out to get him, and it's very reasonable that he would link that to Jimmy's flimsy story about his car.

I don't see it. I mean yes it's very likely that this is what's happening. I just find it a bit unrealistic. Like in real life I'd call Lalo a conspiracy theorist for coming up with that one. Cars break down a lot more often than they're shot up in a thwarted robbery attempt because your enemy wants you to achieve your goal so he can have you killed.

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3 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I don't see it. I mean yes it's very likely that this is what's happening. I just find it a bit unrealistic. Like in real life I'd call Lalo a conspiracy theorist for coming up with that one. Cars break down a lot more often than they're shot up in a thwarted robbery attempt because your enemy wants you to achieve your goal so he can have you killed.

OK but cars break down and get riddled with bullets while an attorney is picking up millions in drug money for murder bail for a cartel kingpin? Lalo instantly leaped to it being something to do with the Cartel, which is quite realistic.

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3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

OK but cars break down and get riddled with bullets while an attorney is picking up millions in drug money for murder bail for a cartel kingpin? Lalo instantly leaped to it being something to do with the Cartel, which is quite realistic.

That's a good point. It's the link to Gus that is very tenuous in my mind. But I guess he's pretty damn focused on Gus.

So maybe Lalo brings up Fring and Jimmy figures out he's talking about "the guy" and says he doesn't know him but he knows Mike?

I feel like this has to end in the meth hole where Gus hid the gun, I have no idea how they're going to get there.

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Realistically, isn't the most likely thing that would happen now is that Lalo would interrogate, possibly torture Jimmy and Kim and then kill them. 

We know that won't happen, but making a different outcome more plausible is going to be a heavy lift for the writers.  It was already barley plausible that Lalo took Kim's bait on 'vandals' doing it and has just left the two of them alone to work on their stupid legal chicanery.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It was already barley plausible that Lalo took Kim's bait on 'vandals' doing it and has just left the two of them alone to work on their stupid legal chicanery.

I think Kim's vandal explanation is just as plausible (if not more so) as what actually happened.

Anyway, though, agreed that a criminal murdering someone in front of people he doesn't trust then leaving them alive generally doesn't make sense.

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think Kim's vandal explanation is just as plausible (if not more so) as what actually happened.

Anyway, though, agreed that a criminal murdering someone in front of people he doesn't trust then leaving them alive generally doesn't make sense.

Maybe for a regular guy whose car stalled in the desert, but when you add in the Fring feud, and that Saul was picking up several million in money to bust out a cartel kingpin from jail....vandals becomes less likely than something cartel related.  I thought at the time a real drug lord would probably have tortured Jimmy to get the truth and then killed him, but I went with the 'Lalo is more intelligent and only uses violence when it is necessary' idea, but they're pushing it now.

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Also, maybe it's just me, but BB Saul seems pretty flippant considering what happened to Howard.  I could see that he would compartmentalize the Chuck issues since that went back to childhood and was years in the making, but what happened to Howard, a totally innocent person who has never done anything meaningful to harm either Jimmy or Kim, and in fact, went out of his way to help them mulitple times, that should leave some kind of mark on Saul that did not exist in BB.  So, I don't know, I'm not feeling it.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I thought at the time a real drug lord would probably have tortured Jimmy to get the truth and then killed him, but I went with the 'Lalo is more intelligent and only uses violence when it is necessary' idea, but they're pushing it now.

Well, clearly Lalo thinks (at least) Jimmy is still useful alive.  Why that is will hopefully be very interesting to find out, to say the least - glad I'm not in the writer's room on that one!

Agree to disagree on the plausibility thing. 

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Well, Jimmy was afraid after Kim told that story to Lalo... Jimmy knew it was flimsy and Lalo would figure it out. And he did. Jimmy was scared to death after Lalo left, they went to the hotel and he wanted to stay under cover until he found out he was dead.

It was a flimsy story, she did her lawyer act on him, but it didn't hold up at all. Lalo is not stupid, and then he found out someone with a lot of power was out to get him, and it's very reasonable that he would link that to Jimmy's flimsy story about his car.

Also about the characters being smart, they actually make a lot of mistakes, that is their undoing, as we are seeing (and saw with Walt, too).

Yeah, Gus literally dies in Breaking Bad because his obsession with punishing Hector leaves him blind to the possibility that Hector might still be a threat to him.

Most of the bad things that happen to Walt happen because, for all his brilliance, he’s an arrogant, egocentric prick. 

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Well, Jimmy was afraid after Kim told that story to Lalo... Jimmy knew it was flimsy and Lalo would figure it out. And he did. Jimmy was scared to death after Lalo left, they went to the hotel and he wanted to stay under cover until he found out he was dead.

It was a flimsy story, she did her lawyer act on him, but it didn't hold up at all. Lalo is not stupid, and then he found out someone with a lot of power was out to get him, and it's very reasonable that he would link that to Jimmy's flimsy story about his car.

Also about the characters being smart, they actually make a lot of mistakes, that is their undoing, as we are seeing (and saw with Walt, too).

And Lalo, while highly competent, makes mistakes, out of anger, eg killing Fred.  He is absolutely furious right now.  Hector doesn’t want him showing his hand at this point, but Lalo is insistent.  His video message to Don Eladio is borderline disrespectful.  Perhaps he takes the view that Kim and Jimmy might know something that can help him, and sufficient brutality will release that knowledge.

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37 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Also, maybe it's just me, but BB Saul seems pretty flippant considering what happened to Howard.  I could see that he would compartmentalize the Chuck issues since that went back to childhood and was years in the making, but what happened to Howard, a totally innocent person who has never done anything meaningful to harm either Jimmy or Kim, and in fact, went out of his way to help them mulitple times, that should leave some kind of mark on Saul that did not exist in BB.  So, I don't know, I'm not feeling it.

I guess by BB, he’s completely hardened and soulless.

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13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I guess by BB, he’s completely hardened and soulless.

Yes, but we have a ways to go for that to resonate.  You would think that having literal blood on his hands, since there is still a lot of Jimmy in Saul, that it would affect him in a significant way and not in him simply saying fuck it, I'm a cartel lawyer now.  So, I don't know. Yes the writers are fantastic and they pay attention to character and motivations, so I guess we'll see what happens in the final eps. 

And let me admit, I think Kim deserves something very, very bad to happen to her now, but I suspect I'm a distinct minority there and I don't think the writers will give her a bad/sad ending.    BB [and The Sopranos] showed that most of the audience, once they identify with the character, will continue to root for him/her no matter how awful their actions. 

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I just don't understand where all of this hate for Howard came from. It was shown at the end of season 1, that all/most of the horrible things Howard did, were actually Chuck telling him to do it and him respecting his friends wishes. That by no means makes him a saint, for covering for Chuck and helping him to hurt Jimmy in seasons 2 and 3, but at the end of the day Howard was just a mouth peace for Chuck and did try to help Jimmy after the fact.

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I never really understood the hate for Chuck in the first place, let alone Howard. 

Chuck was 100% right about Jimmy.  

Sad but true. I think/hope the writers are very aware that the picture they've painted of the characters is attuned to the natural inclination of viewers to love Jimmy/Saul... while in reality he's basically a born conman with very low moral standards who is incapable of going straight, and all those boring people trying to tell him not to by a lowlife are actually in the right.

Like, Chuck said and did some cruel things... but that's because he had spent his life continuously disappointed by his brother.  That's a fact. 

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37 minutes ago, sifth said:

I just don't understand where all of this hate for Howard came from. It was shown at the end of season 1, that all/most of the horrible things Howard did, were actually Chuck telling him to do it and him respecting his friends wishes. That by no means makes him a saint, for covering for Chuck and helping him to hurt Jimmy in seasons 2 and 3, but at the end of the day Howard was just a mouth peace for Chuck and did try to help Jimmy after the fact.

I don't find anyone in this show all that likeable, tbh. Kim was, but she's changed, and otherwise its a show about lawyers and drug dealers. Not sure which is worse. 

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28 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Chuck was 100% right about Jimmy.  

I definitely don't "hate" Howard or Chuck, but Chuck was still a dick and a bad brother to Jimmy.  Perhaps if he showed Jimmy he believed in him, Chuck wouldn't have been 100% right about Jimmy.

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35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I never really understood the hate for Chuck in the first place, let alone Howard. 

Chuck was 100% right about Jimmy.  

Chuck may have been right about Jimmy, but he was also an asshole who continued to punish his brother for decades over something he did as a kid (taking money from the till), and pretended to support him while going behind his back to undermine him and then letting Howard take the blame for it.  And that's despite Jimmy doing literally everything for him.  He was a terrible brother.

47 minutes ago, sifth said:

I just don't understand where all of this hate for Howard came from. It was shown at the end of season 1, that all/most of the horrible things Howard did, were actually Chuck telling him to do it and him respecting his friends wishes. That by no means makes him a saint, for covering for Chuck and helping him to hurt Jimmy in seasons 2 and 3, but at the end of the day Howard was just a mouth peace for Chuck and did try to help Jimmy after the fact.

Howard has always seemed to me like a pretty decent guy.  He's a bit stuffy and pompous, but his heart seems to be in the right place.  He was truly broken up when Chuck killed himself to the point where it killed his marriage and likely had him living at the bottom of a bottle (he looked like absolute shit when Jimmy ran into him in the bathroom at the courthouse that one time), and he really did try to help Jimmy succeed, even if his "Charlie Hustle" nickname for Jimmy always struck me as a little condescending.  

I'd imagine people mostly hate Howard because of how he punished Kim for the things that Jimmy did, which was a shitty thing to do, and ultimately got him killed.

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, but we have a ways to go for that to resonate.  You would think that having literal blood on his hands, since there is still a lot of Jimmy in Saul, that it would affect him in a significant way and not in him simply saying fuck it, I'm a cartel lawyer now.  So, I don't know. Yes the writers are fantastic and they pay attention to character and motivations, so I guess we'll see what happens in the final eps. 

And let me admit, I think Kim deserves something very, very bad to happen to her now, but I suspect I'm a distinct minority there and I don't think the writers will give her a bad/sad ending.    BB [and The Sopranos] showed that most of the audience, once they identify with the character, will continue to root for him/her no matter how awful their actions. 

Sad to say, I don’t think Kim will give a toss about Howard, other than the potential repercussions for her and Jimmy.

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47 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I never really understood the hate for Chuck in the first place, let alone Howard. 

Chuck was 100% right about Jimmy.  

Chuck never gave Jimmy a chance, and was very jealous of their mother’s love for him.  I understand where people come from, with Chuck.

Howard, well, he could be a bit of a twit at times, but he came nowhere close deserving what Jimmy and Kim did.

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