spoilers Better Call Saul

[Daemon the Leaner]

Re: the overall ending. 

I disagree with people saying that it's out of character from him to fuck up his 7 years sentence. Remember he's Slipping Jimmy. His plans never go as expected. It's totally Jimmy to lure the prosecutors with his "I am the victim" stuff, then to tame the court to believe he's the danger man.

(not to mention the audience could hardly swallow Saul escaping with 7 years while Kim is apparently going to face hell)

Also, that line when Saul says he knows the law better than the high judge, and she doesn't even deny or protest, that's great stuff  

[Zuzu Bolin]

On 8/4/2022 at 7:39 PM, Cas Stark said:

.  Nacho was a better person than Jimmy for certain, and maybe a better person than Kim. 

Interesting. We didn't see tiny flashbacks of Nacho's early years but I'm guessing his dad was a better parent than Kim's mother. 

[Zuzu Bolin]

On 8/17/2022 at 5:03 PM, Spockydog said:

Two terrible human beings who deserve every miserable moment coming their way for what they did to Howard

 

Howard was a Tory prick.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Zuzu Bolin said:

Interesting. We didn't see tiny flashbacks of Nacho's early years but I'm guessing his dad was a better parent than Kim's mother. 

Personally I don't really consider that relevant when judging how terrible a person is. I think everyone has their excuses and justifications for why they do the things they do. Tony Soprano's mom being the worst doesn't blunt the impact of all the terrible things he did.

Now that I think about it Walter also had a vaguely strained relationship with his mother, who found out he had cancer when Skylar called to see if she had given him the money for his treatment. The show never indicates that Walt ever spoke to her after that. That might help explain why he was what he was, but it doesn't make him any less of a terrible person.

[Veltigar]

On 8/20/2022 at 6:29 AM, Scott_N said:

Exactly. It's a happy ending only in the context of what has come before it. I think it's perfectly in keeping with how the show has developed.

The ending Jimmy chose wasn't out of self-interest or his love for Kim. It was out of his (belated) commitment to justice and how, ultimately, he faces up to it without flinching.

Here's a good interview on Peter Gould's thoughts on the final episode:

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/better-call-saul-peter-gould-interview-ending-finale-1235341919/

Thanks for sharing that interview. We live in a death of the author time, but it is still nice to read the perspective of the creator on something

[Daemon the Leaner]

Also, it might just be a coincidence, but both BB and BCS penultimate episode end with a guy leaving a place in hurry 

[DMC]

On 8/20/2022 at 6:39 PM, Zuzu Bolin said:

Interesting. We didn't see tiny flashbacks of Nacho's early years but I'm guessing his dad was a better parent than Kim's mother. 

Almost certainly, but the notion Nacho is a "better" person than Jimmy or Kim is entirely based on how they were depicted.  We saw Nacho being victimized by the higher-up drug dealers he got involved with, but to compare the life he chose - and the show (not to mention his dad) spends a lot of the early seasons establishing he chose all of it, starting with being a middle man for the Salamancas - is very obviously worse than almost everything Jimmy did leading up to Lalo killing Howard. 

I have a lot of empathy for Nacho, but give me a break.  Kim was and always will be a much better person, and that's not just because she's a white woman.  Dude slung meth and enforced skims for the cartel and was witnessing murders by his superiors and encouraged Jimmy to rip off a family.  That's how we met him.

[Werthead]

Just caught up on this. Like Breaking Bad, which I binged after it was over, I'd planned to do the same with Better Call Saul but then wound up watching the first three seasons last year and the last three this year, which worked really well (the show is very much a show of two halves, broken up by Chuck's death).

I found BCS to be the better show of the two by a fairly significant amount. BB had a slightly cartoonish element to it I found sometimes grating, not to mention their pacing for Seasons 1 and 2 being disrupted by the writer's strike and the bad guys in the final season being utterly uninteresting (whilst having just killed their best antagonist too early). Also, the plane crash was bollocks and the whole basis of the show - Mr. Chips becomes Scarface - was kind of thrown out the window by having Walter straight up kill a dude in Episode 1 (and another one two episodes later) and not really give a shit about it. Walter never really changed as such, his change in circumstances and the loss of any fear of repercussions due to his cancer simply allowed the person he'd always been to emerge. Breaking Bad was still very good, but a Top 50 of all time show, maybe a Top 20 at its very best (and you can't fault those last few episodes: "He made his mind up ten minutes ago," is and forever will be a totally heartbreaking killer line).

BCS is better simply because it evens out its pacing over six seasons (though only one episode more than BB) much better, each season has a stronger through-line and the show know the value of a slow-burn and focusing on setup before execution. All the pieces matter, for real. Breaking Bad seemed to think it needed to have some kind of major event, shoot-out, explosion or craziness every few episodes, sometimes when it was a bit random, but BCS was happier to be a much quieter show: Chuck showing Jimmy how much contempt he held him in in the Season 1 finale and Kim firing off the finger guns, showing she's now willingly crossed to the dark side, are as momentous to this show as Walter letting Jesse's girlfriend die or Gus being blown to pieces by Hector.

There were moments when the pace slackened and it did sometimes take odd turns, but the only egregious problem for me was the degree to which it let Nacho fall by the wayside. In Season 1 it felt like the show was about four characters: Nacho, Mike, Saul and Kim. But Nacho just vanished for long periods of time and ended up getting less screen-time than Gus, which felt wrong (and only a bit more than Chuck, despite Chuck being killed off before the show's halfway point). Also, as others have said, giving Gus way more screen time is great from the POV that Giancarlo Esposito is a great actor, but it revealed very little new information about Gus. The cartel storyline was great, but it was weird that our original POV character into that world, Nacho, was given such little to do in it until near the very end, when he promptly became one of the best things in the show (Michael Mando has been amazing in a supporting role in multiple shows and video games now, and I would love to seem him as the lead in something).

The ending was brutal. Jimmy in prison forever and Kim effectively being condemned to live in a terrible life in Florida with the most boring human being alive. There was that hint she might be getting back into the law at the end with her volunteer role, but I doubt she'll ever be able to practice law again professionally after her confession.

I also wonder if the writers had another motive for putting Jimmy in prison for 84 years: if he'd taken and done the 7 years, he'd be out by "now" (in the BB/BCS timeline) and I think fans would start arguing for another movie or something to catch up with Jimmy, Jesse, Skyler, Kim, Walt Jr. and everyone else who survived the Waltocalypse, and the writers wanted to remove that temptation from themselves (Gilligan has noted his next project will be outside the BBverse and he wants to avoid doing anything in it ever again, at least until he's broke and penniless and has no choice).

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Also, the plane crash was bollocks and the whole basis of the show - Mr. Chips becomes Scarface - was kind of thrown out the window by having Walter straight up kill a dude in Episode 1 (and another one two episodes later) and not really give a shit about it. Walter never really changed as such, his change in circumstances and the loss of any fear of repercussions due to his cancer simply allowed the person he'd always been to emerge. Breaking Bad was still very good, but a Top 50 of all time show, maybe a Top 20 at its very best (and you can't fault those last few episodes: "He made his mind up ten minutes ago," is and forever will be a totally heartbreaking killer line).

The plane crash - particularly the build up to it - is indeed probably the worst part of the series.  But I strongly disagree with you about Walt's first two kills.  While obviously not legally, Emilio and Krazy-8 were very much self-defense.  Moreover, he clearly cares quite a bit about strangling the latter in Jesse's basement - they devote an entire episode to it where he's literally crying as he does it because he knows if he lets him go he'll kill him (the piece of broken plate Krazy-8 stole) and then apologizes profusely.

That being said, I agree that Walt really hasn't changed much - that's the entire point of the show.  As Gilligan has said (recently) he was always that arrogant prick, and the show makes clear his resentment was something festering long before the lung cancer presented the circumstances/opportunity to become the monster he does.  Hell, he himself admits it in the final conversation with Skylar.

Anyway, BCS is definitely the more polished show, which is natural considering Gilligan and Gould were comfortable and in their groove by that point.  And it's hard to argue it's more consistent in quality, albeit I found it to meander quite a bit in the middle parts of seasons.  But it never reached the heights of BB - and those heights, for me, firmly place BB in the top 5 TV shows ever.  BCS is probably in the 20-25 range.

[Heartofice]

On 9/7/2022 at 1:56 AM, DMC said:

Anyway, BCS is definitely the more polished show, which is natural considering Gilligan and Gould were comfortable and in their groove by that point.  And it's hard to argue it's more consistent in quality, albeit I found it to meander quite a bit in the middle parts of seasons.  But it never reached the heights of BB - and those heights, for me, firmly place BB in the top 5 TV shows ever.  BCS is probably in the 20-25 range.

I think I would agree with that. BCS has a high level of technical achievement about it, and is consistently good quality, but it only ever becomes 'great TV' in rare moments. It does meander, not just on a season level but during episodes. I've complained before but Gilligan is highly indulgent in the way he lets scenes play out, taking 15 mins for something that could be done in 5. You watch an episode and realise there were only a handful of scenes within it sometimes.

It was also never as gripping as BB. It was never must watch TV in the same way BB was. I always really enjoyed BCS but I was never in a rush to see the next episode. If it came out on Tuesday on Netflix and something else was on, it would probably be watched after the something else. 

BCS is a fine achievement, I really like it, but it just cannot ever be as good as BB, even with BB's flaws acknowledged.

[SeanF]

On 9/7/2022 at 1:25 AM, Werthead said:

Just caught up on this. Like Breaking Bad, which I binged after it was over, I'd planned to do the same with Better Call Saul but then wound up watching the first three seasons last year and the last three this year, which worked really well (the show is very much a show of two halves, broken up by Chuck's death).

I found BCS to be the better show of the two by a fairly significant amount. BB had a slightly cartoonish element to it I found sometimes grating, not to mention their pacing for Seasons 1 and 2 being disrupted by the writer's strike and the bad guys in the final season being utterly uninteresting (whilst having just killed their best antagonist too early). Also, the plane crash was bollocks and the whole basis of the show - Mr. Chips becomes Scarface - was kind of thrown out the window by having Walter straight up kill a dude in Episode 1 (and another one two episodes later) and not really give a shit about it. Walter never really changed as such, his change in circumstances and the loss of any fear of repercussions due to his cancer simply allowed the person he'd always been to emerge. Breaking Bad was still very good, but a Top 50 of all time show, maybe a Top 20 at its very best (and you can't fault those last few episodes: "He made his mind up ten minutes ago," is and forever will be a totally heartbreaking killer line).

BCS is better simply because it evens out its pacing over six seasons (though only one episode more than BB) much better, each season has a stronger through-line and the show know the value of a slow-burn and focusing on setup before execution. All the pieces matter, for real. Breaking Bad seemed to think it needed to have some kind of major event, shoot-out, explosion or craziness every few episodes, sometimes when it was a bit random, but BCS was happier to be a much quieter show: Chuck showing Jimmy how much contempt he held him in in the Season 1 finale and Kim firing off the finger guns, showing she's now willingly crossed to the dark side, are as momentous to this show as Walter letting Jesse's girlfriend die or Gus being blown to pieces by Hector.

There were moments when the pace slackened and it did sometimes take odd turns, but the only egregious problem for me was the degree to which it let Nacho fall by the wayside. In Season 1 it felt like the show was about four characters: Nacho, Mike, Saul and Kim. But Nacho just vanished for long periods of time and ended up getting less screen-time than Gus, which felt wrong (and only a bit more than Chuck, despite Chuck being killed off before the show's halfway point). Also, as others have said, giving Gus way more screen time is great from the POV that Giancarlo Esposito is a great actor, but it revealed very little new information about Gus. The cartel storyline was great, but it was weird that our original POV character into that world, Nacho, was given such little to do in it until near the very end, when he promptly became one of the best things in the show (Michael Mando has been amazing in a supporting role in multiple shows and video games now, and I would love to seem him as the lead in something).

The ending was brutal. Jimmy in prison forever and Kim effectively being condemned to live in a terrible life in Florida with the most boring human being alive. There was that hint she might be getting back into the law at the end with her volunteer role, but I doubt she'll ever be able to practice law again professionally after her confession.

I also wonder if the writers had another motive for putting Jimmy in prison for 84 years: if he'd taken and done the 7 years, he'd be out by "now" (in the BB/BCS timeline) and I think fans would start arguing for another movie or something to catch up with Jimmy, Jesse, Skyler, Kim, Walt Jr. and everyone else who survived the Waltocalypse, and the writers wanted to remove that temptation from themselves (Gilligan has noted his next project will be outside the BBverse and he wants to avoid doing anything in it ever again, at least until he's broke and penniless and has no choice).

BB had the better ending, of that I have no doubt.  I found it deeply unsatisfying.

[sifth]

BCS is one of the few shows to keep me sane during lockdown. I’ll always be thankful for it, if only for that alone. 

[The Sunland Lord]

That wasn't a great ending to a show. 

Why would he manage do reduce his sentence to 7 years, and then raise it to 86? 

[Paxter]

BB has the advantage of being a much more focused, plot-driven story. BCS is by design a slower, more "world-based" romp. Personally, I think BCS was at its best when it took a leaf from BB's book and focused on Jimmy, Chuck, Kim and Howard, and the associated legal and con-man adventures. 

As much as I love Mike and Gus, I really felt like the plot hook wasn't there as we all know the outcomes and overall journey for those characters. Nacho was fairly wasted. 

Having said that, I loved Lalo and he saved the show after we lost Chuck.  

[dbunting]

4 hours ago, Paxter said:

BB has the advantage of being a much more focused, plot-driven story. BCS is by design a slower, more "world-based" romp. Personally, I think BCS was at its best when it took a leaf from BB's book and focused on Jimmy, Chuck, Kim and Howard, and the associated legal and con-man adventures. 

As much as I love Mike and Gus, I really felt like the plot hook wasn't there as we all know the outcomes and overall journey for those characters. Nacho was fairly wasted. 

Having said that, I loved Lalo and he saved the show after we lost Chuck.  

Tend to agree with this. Take away most of their screen time and give it to the others and I think the  already really good show improves some.

[Nictarion]

Not a single Emmy win for BCS. I do think Succession was deserving of its wins, but Zendaya over Rhea Seehorn?

And I like Euphoria to be clear, but Rhea Seehorn gave an all time great performance over the years as Kim, and to walk away without a single Emmy is crazy to me. 

[Dragon in the North]

45 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

And I like Euphoria to be clear, but Rhea Seehorn gave an all time great performance over the years as Kim, and to walk away without a single Emmy is crazy to me. 

Seehorn lost to Julia Garner, not Zendaya.

[Mark Antony]

1 minute ago, Dragon in the North said:

Seehorn lost to Julia Garner, not Zendaya.

Plus this wasn’t for the final season or whatever. So the scene of her crying in the bus for example wouldn’t have been submitted. 

[Nictarion]

9 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Seehorn lost to Julia Garner, not Zendaya.

 

7 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Plus this wasn’t for the final season or whatever. So the scene of her crying in the bus for example wouldn’t have been submitted. 

Ah ok. Maybe she still gets one then. 

[Mark Antony]

Honestly I doubt it. Not that she isn’t deserving but it will be a year from now. BCS will be out of peoples minds. Also Hotd and successions new season will probably be up against her