Lord Varys Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Robert was dutiful toward his brothers, and no doubt loved them in a way... but he didn't necessarily like them. His relations with Stannis were always prickly. Renly was the baby of the family, and spent little time in Robert's company until he was old enough to come to court. And we know he fucking hated the Lannisters from his canon speech. I didn't say Robert liked his brothers very much. I said that he was more than dutiful insofar as royal favors for his brothers were concerned. Robert didn't love his brothers but he showered them with favors. No king but Renly made both his brothers great lords and appointed them to his council. 2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Sure the estermonts. That makes sense. He actually knew and liked them canon. His sister in law, whose marriage bed he defiled, who was the second daughter of a cadet branch of a middling Reach family makes no sense to promote unless he loves them and or they are competent. We see negative evidence of this. It makes no sense He didn't so they weren't You have me there. I have no idea why they were married into the royal family. It might have made sense *after* robert fucked delena, but not before. Since Selyse was married to Stannis there has to be a connection between her family and House Baratheon. A reason why she was chosen for this match. This has to be case regardless who arranged the match. 4 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said: A bit off topic, but I have always been surprised that there is not a single historical Florent mentioned by name in the books (not counting Aladore and Jon who are only mentioned in the Hedge Knight comic adaptation). I think that's unique among the more prominently featuring Reach houses. Yes, that is noteworthy, as is the fact that the Florents seem to be erased from the series from ACoK/ASoS on. Originally, most of Stannis' men on Dragonstone after the Blackwater are Florents ... but in ADwD the only Florent mentioned is Axell. Technically, most of the lords and knights in Stannis' army we meet in ADwD should either be men sworn to Brightwater or freeriders/hedge knights which originally signed up with Lord Alester. Instead we get only Stormlanders and Crownlanders. 1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said: The impression that I get is the Florents were a powerful family preConquest, but were decimated post, and their enmity with the Tyrells have kept them from regaining their prior glory. The Florents may have been more powerful before the Conquest but we don't even hear anything about their power/wealth being reduced after the Conquest. Unlike, say, with the Peakes or Osgreys. 1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said: What appears to keep them in the game is that their bloodline may still be held in high regard in the Reach. We only know that they think they have a better claim to Highgarden than the Tyrells. But that doesn't mean they were once particularly powerful or noble. All it tells us is that the blood ties between Florents and Gardeners are closer than those between the Tyrells and the Gardeners. This could mean that a sister or daughter of Mern X was married to the Lord of Brightwater at the time of the Conquest ... but it doesn't have to mean this. It could also just mean that Harlan Tyrell was a tenth of fifteenth cousin of Mern X whereas the Lord of Brightwater was a third or fourth cousin of Mern X. But even if it did then this doesn't really mean that the Florents were particularly noble or powerful. It only means that this hypothetical Florent guy was lucky enough to marry a Gardener princess. 1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said: And what may bolster your argument about them being a fairly “weak” house comes from a “semi” canon (so take it with a grain of salt) source: What's the source for this? The description of the Florents not having all that much land is consistent with the position of the castle on the map. As I already wrote, they are surrounded by territory which should be controlled by the Hightowers and their bannermen, the Lords of the Shield Islands, and the Tyrells and whatever petty lords and landed knights are sworn directly to Highgarden. Keep in mind that thanks to FaB we now do know that the Tullys are unique among the great lords in the sense that they can raise fewer men than their most powerful bannermen. This means that all the other great lords do control more men directly than their most powerful bannermen - which means they must control more territory. With that in mind we should assume that at least part of the territory the Tyrells control directly extends along the Mander down to the Shield Islands. The lands east of Brightwater should be controlled by the Blackbars, considering that Bandallon is isn't that far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 8 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: I do question why Selyse Florent would be chosen by anyone as a bride for anyone, for a variety of reasons, but since I can't ask GRRM myself, I can only shrug. Wise man. 8 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Great lord' is used in all kind of combinations in those books. At that point it is used to stress how much Garlan's status has changed after he was made Lord of Brightwater. Prior to that he was just a landless knight. Great Lord is only used to refer to powerful highlords. 8 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Actually, we do have reason to assume that, because there are houses like the Rowans and Oakhearts and Tarlys and Peakes (at least back in the 130s) who fielded pretty large armies in the past. More importantly, we also have reason to assume that more houses than the one you mentioned originally can field more than 2,000 men at maximum. The Tullys should be able to field more, as should those Riverlords who can field more houses than the Tullys on their own. Most of the big Northern houses also can field more men than just 2,000. Kevan Lannister alone can field more than 2,000 men considering he claims he can feed 200-400 knights. - None of them fielded 2k armies alone nor we have a reason to believe they did. 2k men is considered a pretty large army anyway. - The Tullys are a Great House and I was explicitly not mentioning them because it's obvious they can field more men. The talk is about non Great Houses. - There is no reason to believe that there Riverlords more powerful than the Tullys now. - Only the Boltons and Manderlys can field more men that we're aware of. - Kevan can field 400-800 knights. I don't know how that translates to 2k men overall. 8 hours ago, Lord Varys said: If you look at the map then Brightwater is also not likely to control many lands. To the south is Oldtown, meaning many of the lands along the Honeywine should be controlled by the Hightowers and their bannermen and vassals. To the north is the mouth of the Mander and the Shield Islands, meaning those lands are controlled by lords and landed knights sworn directly to the Tyrells as well as the Lords of the Shield Islands. To the east is Highgarden and to the west the sea. Not much place for them to contral vast reaches of land. All this is pure conjecture so, there's no point in argue it. 8 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The Seaworths are also listed as principal bannermen of House Baratheon in the appendix of AGoT. Doesn't mean they have to be powerful. The Westerlings are also principal bannermen of House Lannister without having much to offer, the same with with Cerwyns in the North, or the Baelishs in the Vale. The Seaworth are listed as principal bannerman of House Baratheon of Dragonstone. The point of it being that Dragonstone have shitty vassals. This is not true for Highgarden. The Westerlings declined to power, which we're told, the same cannot be said about the Florents. The Baelishs are a good point however. 8 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Nobody equated that. We just pointed out that your interpretation is less likely in light of established facts. But it's not true?? Robert had a personal reason for arranging his betrothal with Lyanna, just as he had a personal reason for arranging Sansa's betrothal. That reason simply don't exist in Stannis's case. And Robert himself allowed Jon Arryn to arrange him a wedding after Lyanna passed. This is a trend with Robert, unless he is personally invested Robert has always let the people he trusts run things for him. He has no interest in Stannis so... 8 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Steffon could also have arranged a betrothal for little Renly ... but this doesn't mean he did it. Most precedents we have imply that lords make matches for their elder children before turning to their younger children. There are exceptions, of course, but those are exceptions, not the rule. So... This too can be an exception?? 8 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Nobody else could have because nobody but Robert could actually command Stannis to do anything. Jon Arryn could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 11 hours ago, frenin said: Wise man. Great Lord is only used to refer to powerful highlords. No, it isn't. Quote - None of them fielded 2k armies alone nor we have a reason to believe they did. 2k men is considered a pretty large army anyway. Stannis dismisses the Florents because they can only raise 2,000 men. Quote - The Tullys are a Great House and I was explicitly not mentioning them because it's obvious they can field more men. The talk is about non Great Houses. - There is no reason to believe that there Riverlords more powerful than the Tullys now. There is no reason to believe the status quo of the Tullys changed. They are a great house which is weaker than quite a few of their own bannermen. Quote - Kevan can field 400-800 knights. I don't know how that translates to 2k men overall. Kevan says he can field such a high number of knights. This means he could feed a much larger number of non-knights, considering the coin that goes into maintaining a knight and his equipment is well beyond anything he would need to just feed a humble man-at-arms. Quote All this is pure conjecture so, there's no point in argue it. You don't have to argue it, you can just accept that the Florents are neither a very prestigious nor powerful house. Quote The Seaworth are listed as principal bannerman of House Baratheon of Dragonstone. Which is actually wrong since Davos' tower is on Cape Wrath which is actually sworn to Storm's End, not Dragonstone. Quote The point of it being that Dragonstone have shitty vassals. This is not true for Highgarden. The Westerlings declined to power, which we're told, the same cannot be said about the Florents. The point is that houses mentioned in the appendix of AGoT do not translate to them being powerful or wealthy. They are not even principal bannermen despite the fact that they are mentioned as quite a few examples to the contrary confirm. Quote Robert had a personal reason for arranging his betrothal with Lyanna, just as he had a personal reason for arranging Sansa's betrothal. That reason simply don't exist in Stannis's case. We are not talking reasons here, we are talking the time line and that it is less likely that Steffon arranged Stannis' marriage than that Robert did this, because Robert arranged his own betrothal. Quote And Robert himself allowed Jon Arryn to arrange him a wedding after Lyanna passed. This is a trend with Robert, unless he is personally invested Robert has always let the people he trusts run things for him. He has no interest in Stannis so... Jon didn't arrange Robert's marriage, he convinced him to marry Cersei. Which is different. Robert was a king ruling in his own right. He arranged his own marriage, and nobody else. All Jon did was convincing Robert that he should marry Cersei. Quote So... This too can be an exception?? It technically could. It is just not very likely. It is actually pretty stupid to assume that Stannis would have gone through with a Florent match arranged before the Rebellion when the Florents actually fought against him and Robert during the war. Quote Jon Arryn could. LOL, no. Jon was neither Stannis' elder brother nor his king. He may have offered his own advice if Robert and Stannis cared to involve him when they were looking for a bride for Stannis. But Jon had no authority to force Stannis to do anything. And as I already said - if Stannis had Jon to thank for Selyse he would have likely loathed him as much or more as Cersei ... and he wouldn't have worked closely with him while they were on the council nor would he have turned to Jon to tell him about the twincest. Nor would he have agreed to foster Jon's son at his castle. It also makes no sense to assume that Jon of all people would even suggest Selyse as a potential bride for Stannis. There are dozens of women that should come before such an obscure woman from his point of view, most notably women from prominent/loyal Vale houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 There's always a chance that Mace sent her into SE to parlay with Stannis knowing there was a 50/50 chance he'd leave the castle to avoid her. But then when it didn't work she just stuck around and Stannis was too awkward to ask her to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 23 hours ago, Lord Varys said: No, it isn't. The burden of proof is on you. Do you have examples where Great Lord is not used as synonym for prominent/powerful highlord?? 23 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Stannis dismisses the Florents because they can only raise 2,000 men. Indeed. How that ties with the Tarlys, Rowans et co being able to field more men?? 23 hours ago, Lord Varys said: There is no reason to believe the status quo of the Tullys changed. They are a great house which is weaker than quite a few of their own bannermen. There is every reason to believe it changed. Both because when Glydayn was talking about the coming of the Tully brothers as an herald of new times and because up until the War of the 5 Kings the Tullys were on the victorious side of every war of succession Westeros fought. That and the fact that nowhere in the current books the weaknesses of the Tullys are ever addressed. 23 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Kevan says he can field such a high number of knights. This means he could feed a much larger number of non-knights, considering the coin that goes into maintaining a knight and his equipment is well beyond anything he would need to just feed a humble man-at-arms. He needs lands in order to find humble men at arms. 23 hours ago, Lord Varys said: You don't have to argue it, you can just accept that the Florents are neither a very prestigious nor powerful house. Why would I?? You offer nothing more than your word for it. 23 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Which is actually wrong since Davos' tower is on Cape Wrath which is actually sworn to Storm's End, not Dragonstone. Don't even know what to tell you. You're the one who brought them up. They are listed as vassals of Dragonstone not Storm's End. 23 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The point is that houses mentioned in the appendix of AGoT do not translate to them being powerful or wealthy. They are not even principal bannermen despite the fact that they are mentioned as quite a few examples to the contrary confirm. Fair enough, yet I've never heard of anyone calling them highlords. Not the same with the Florents. On 6/11/2021 at 4:27 PM, Lord Varys said: We are not talking reasons here, we are talking the time line and that it is less likely that Steffon arranged Stannis' marriage than that Robert did this, because Robert arranged his own betrothal. Yes we do. Since you're using Robert arranging his own marriage as proof that he must've arranged Stannis's. As I said, there are several candidates for the position On 6/11/2021 at 4:27 PM, Lord Varys said: Jon didn't arrange Robert's marriage, he convinced him to marry Cersei. Which is different. Robert was a king ruling in his own right. He arranged his own marriage, and nobody else. All Jon did was convincing Robert that he should marry Cersei. So, he indeed arranged Robert's marriage. He talked to Tywin, he got his blessing and then got Robert's or vice versa. Ofc Arryn cannot order Robert to marry, he can convince him to do so. On 6/11/2021 at 4:27 PM, Lord Varys said: It technically could. It is just not very likely. It is actually pretty stupid to assume that Stannis would have gone through with a Florent match arranged before the Rebellion when the Florents actually fought against him and Robert during the war. If they found themselves bound by the agreement is natural that they did. On 6/11/2021 at 4:27 PM, Lord Varys said: LOL, no. Jon was neither Stannis' elder brother nor his king. He may have offered his own advice if Robert and Stannis cared to involve him when they were looking for a bride for Stannis. But Jon had no authority to force Stannis to do anything. And as I already said - if Stannis had Jon to thank for Selyse he would have likely loathed him as much or more as Cersei ... and he wouldn't have worked closely with him while they were on the council nor would he have turned to Jon to tell him about the twincest. Nor would he have agreed to foster Jon's son at his castle. It also makes no sense to assume that Jon of all people would even suggest Selyse as a potential bride for Stannis. There are dozens of women that should come before such an obscure woman from his point of view, most notably women from prominent/loyal Vale houses. - Jon was Hand of the King and spoke with the King's voice. He very much could ordered Stannis to do so. Hands arrange marriages all the time. - Yet another conjuncture. - A marriage with the most prominent rebel region makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 53 minutes ago, frenin said: The burden of proof is on you. Do you have examples where Great Lord is not used as synonym for prominent/powerful highlord?? It is on you, since you made the baseless claim that 'great lord' is only used in the limited meaning you think it is. But you didn't prove that, did you? 53 minutes ago, frenin said: There is every reason to believe it changed. Both because when Glydayn was talking about the coming of the Tully brothers as an herald of new times and because up until the War of the 5 Kings the Tullys were on the victorious side of every war of succession Westeros fought. That and the fact that nowhere in the current books the weaknesses of the Tullys are ever addressed. LOL, that's not necessary. Gyldayn is a historian writing more than a century after the Dance. His description of the Tullys is a general description and it fits very well with their status in the novels. They do not have the same hold over their bannermen the other great houses have. It wasn't clear prior to FaB that they were so weak in the military department but it fits well with everything we know. Only in the Riverlands are there so many other houses who rival or surpass the ruling house in that and other departments ... and that shows when the Iron Throne favors or relies on the Lords of Harrenhal, the Darrys, or other Riverlords rather than the Tullys. 53 minutes ago, frenin said: He needs lands in order to find humble men at arms. LOL, what a nonsense. All he needs is the coin he has to pay sellswords and freeriders. And he clearly has that money. 53 minutes ago, frenin said: Why would I?? You offer nothing more than your word for it. Because it is pretty obvious that the Florents are a joke. 53 minutes ago, frenin said: Don't even know what to tell you. You're the one who brought them up. They are listed as vassals of Dragonstone not Storm's End. You brought up the appendencies, not I. And citing them as authority when they are riddled with mistakes doesn't really help your case. 53 minutes ago, frenin said: Yes we do. Since you're using Robert arranging his own marriage as proof that he must've arranged Stannis's. As I said, there are several candidates for the position Robert is the only authority who could have forced his brother to go through with that marriage. And both Selyse's low birth, her looks, and her character all imply that Stannis would have *never* entered into that marriage of his own free will. If he had been given a choice he would have likely never married at all ... or a woman of higher birth and better looks. 53 minutes ago, frenin said: So, he indeed arranged Robert's marriage. He talked to Tywin, he got his blessing and then got Robert's or vice versa. Ofc Arryn cannot order Robert to marry, he can convince him to do so. There is no indication that Jon 'talked to Tywin'. Jon talked to Robert, that we know. He told him he should marry Cersei and he gave him some reasons. But he didn't arrange the match. That is what Robert himself did. You cannot arrange a marriage for a king who rules in his own right. An arranged marriage is an a marriage that is arranged for you by authorities that rule your life ... or that you allow to rule you. And that's nothing Robert ever did. Robert himself decided to not marry for love but to marry a woman his fatherly friend suggested he marry. That is very different from an arranged marriage. 53 minutes ago, frenin said: If they found themselves bound by the agreement is natural that they did. There is no indication that there was such a betrothal nor does it make any sense there would be ... after the Lords of the Reach besieged Stannis at Storm's End. 53 minutes ago, frenin said: - Jon was Hand of the King and spoke with the King's voice. He very much could ordered Stannis to do so. Hands arrange marriages all the time. LOL, Stannis is the king's brother. He can talk to the king directly, you know. And he would if the Hand presumed to tell him who to marry. This is just nonsense. 53 minutes ago, frenin said: - A marriage with the most prominent rebel region makes sense. Nothing about that marriage makes sense. Selyse Florent is the daughter of the second brother of the Lord of Brightwater, who himself is just a minor lord. It may, perhaps, make sense that Stannis marry Alester's own daughter. But his obscure niece is pretty much beneath the brother of the king who is also a great lord in his own right. Bottom line is - the Florent match doesn't really make much sense regardless how you spin it. Trying to make sense of it by imagining the Florents as powerful or their imagined claims to Highgarden be of political importance doesn't really help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 On 6/11/2021 at 5:07 AM, frenin said: - None of them fielded 2k armies alone nor we have a reason to believe they did. 2k men is considered a pretty large army anyway. - The Tullys are a Great House and I was explicitly not mentioning them because it's obvious they can field more men. The talk is about non Great Houses. - There is no reason to believe that there Riverlords more powerful than the Tullys now. - Only the Boltons and Manderlys can field more men that we're aware of. The Karstarks are confirmed to have more men than the Florents as well. From the Vale, all six of the Lords Declarant have more men than the Florents (albeit in unclear individual figures), and there are other Vale houses presumably around that same level (Corbray, Grafton, Lynderly, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 15 hours ago, Lord Varys said: It is on you, since you made the baseless claim that 'great lord' is only used in the limited meaning you think it is. But you didn't prove that, did you? Yup, I'm out. 3 hours ago, Colonel Green said: The Karstarks are confirmed to have more men than the Florents as well. From the Vale, all six of the Lords Declarant have more men than the Florents (albeit in unclear individual figures), and there are other Vale houses presumably around that same level (Corbray, Grafton, Lynderly, etc.). And they are all high profile highlords. It isn't a particularly large pool now is it?? I did forgot about the Karstarks tho. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 11 hours ago, Colonel Green said: The Karstarks are confirmed to have more men than the Florents as well. From the Vale, all six of the Lords Declarant have more men than the Florents (albeit in unclear individual figures), and there are other Vale houses presumably around that same level (Corbray, Grafton, Lynderly, etc.). We can also expect that all the lords who control towns can raise more than 2,000 men, i.e. especially the Mootons, Darklyns/Rykkers, Caswells, Footlys, etc., and whoever controls Stoney Sept and Fairmarket these days. Prior to TWoIaF and FaB I argued that Stannis may have downplayed the strength of the Florents somewhat, speaking merely about professional men-at-arms rather than their full military potential (although that was always kind of silly considering that as a Florent in-law he should have inside knowledge about their strength) but with us now knowing the Florents effectively play no role at all in the history of Westeros from the Conquest to the Regency of Aegon III (and also not in later events according to TWoIaF) this idea seems to be pretty much dead. Apparently all the Florents did during the Targaryen reign was to complain that they should have gotten Highgarden. Which is the same as doing nothing, especially since we don't even know how strong their alleged claim to Highgarden actually was. If you look at the history of Westeros then the Florents could have ridden with Septon Moon, could have sided with the Blacks in the Reach against the Hightowers (or joined them in their march), could offered their women as brides to various royals, could have sat on the council of this or that king, could have sided with Maegor or Aegon the Uncrowned or Jaehaerys I in the 40s, etc. They could have done something. But they did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 On 6/10/2021 at 11:49 PM, Lord Varys said: What's the source for this? The description of the Florents not having all that much land is consistent with the position of the castle on the map. It's from a role playing sourcebook, Green Ronin A Song of Ice and Fire Campaign Guide. So like I said above, take it with a grain of salt. As for the rest, it's just my feeling that House Florent used to be a much more powerful House. The fact that it is placed in the number one adverserial position to House Tyrell akin to House Yronwood and House Martell, House Frey and House Tully; and House Bolton and House Stark, makes me think that it is still a significant House. And the fact that there is such dislike between House Florent and House Tyrell makes me think that House Florent's fall was precipitous after House Tyrell took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direpupy Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 21 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: It's from a role playing sourcebook, Green Ronin A Song of Ice and Fire Campaign Guide. So like I said above, take it with a grain of salt. Green Ronin is not even semi-canon, it just got a seal of approval as good enough for a game from George whit out him checking the details and he did not provide any additional information to them beyond the (then published) books, because of this we do not even use this as a source for the wiki unless backed up by an other source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 47 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: It's from a role playing sourcebook, Green Ronin A Song of Ice and Fire Campaign Guide. So like I said above, take it with a grain of salt. As for the rest, it's just my feeling that House Florent used to be a much more powerful House. The fact that it is placed in the number one adverserial position to House Tyrell akin to House Yronwood and House Martell, House Frey and House Tully; and House Bolton and House Stark, makes me think that it is still a significant House. And the fact that there is such dislike between House Florent and House Tyrell makes me think that House Florent's fall was precipitous after House Tyrell took over. We barely even see any mention of the Florents in the worldbook and none in the targ stories. The D&E stories more or less put them on par with the typical run of reach houses like the Swanns Tarbecks and Blackwoods. I don't suspect they lost much if any influence after the Tyrells came to power, if only because they were never that powerful in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said: It's from a role playing sourcebook, Green Ronin A Song of Ice and Fire Campaign Guide. So like I said above, take it with a grain of salt. Oh, yes, I own that thing and I remembered to have read the paragraph you cited somewhere, but I couldn't pin it down. 1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said: As for the rest, it's just my feeling that House Florent used to be a much more powerful House. The fact that it is placed in the number one adverserial position to House Tyrell akin to House Yronwood and House Martell, House Frey and House Tully; and House Bolton and House Stark, makes me think that it is still a significant House. And the fact that there is such dislike between House Florent and House Tyrell makes me think that House Florent's fall was precipitous after House Tyrell took over. The Florents thinking they should have gotten doesn't seem to have to do anything with their strength and power but rather with the blood ties they had to House Gardener. They think Aegon the Conqueror should have given Highgarden to them and not the Tyrells. In that sense they are more akin to the Volmarks - a rather minor Ironborn house whose Lord Qhorin Volmark was descended from a sister of Harwyn Hardhand and thus thought he should be King of the Iron Islands after the destruction of Harrenhal - than they are of the major houses of the Reach. Their strength is based on their own power not talk about blood ties to an extinguished royal bloodline. 51 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said: We barely even see any mention of the Florents in the worldbook and none in the targ stories. The D&E stories more or less put them on par with the typical run of reach houses like the Swanns Tarbecks and Blackwoods. I don't suspect they lost much if any influence after the Tyrells came to power, if only because they were never that powerful in the first place. Yes, if they had been powerful then they should have played a similar role as the Peakes did in the history of Westeros. For them we see a steady decline in power and prominence since the Conquest. And it is not that the Tyrells could really take away something from the Florents without permission of the Crown ... nor is it the case that the Tyrells were particularly powerful in the first century after the Conquest. Lord Manfryd Redwyne speaks badly about them in the Small Council and only after Lord Martyn Tyrell and his wife joined the council can we expect them to have played a larger role in the Realm. But during the reign of Viserys I the Hightowers ran the show in the Reach with their ties to the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 On 6/12/2021 at 5:51 PM, Lord Varys said: His description of the Tullys is a general description and it fits very well with their status in the novels. They do not have the same hold over their bannermen the other great houses have. It wasn't clear prior to FaB that they were so weak in the military department but it fits well with everything we know. OTOH, speaking of the Tullys, didn't Targaryen loyalists in the Riverlands, such as Whents, Darrys and Goodbrooks lose much of their land after Robert was victorious? Shouldn't the Tullys have been the ones to profit from it? And yes, given that they usually were on the winning side or neutral during various preceding conflicts, they should have gotten significantly stronger than they were at the time of the Conquest. For that matter, do we know what happened to Harroways lands? Regarding Stannis's Florent marriage - not only would he have whined about it if Robert had forced him into it, Cersei would have spitefully crowed about it as well, just like she did about Dragonstone allegedly being meant as a snub (according to GRRM it wasn't). But could it be that no other Reach house of note wanted a marriage tie to the Baratheons at the time? I mean, it made political sense for the Baratheons to forge such a match with an implicit threat to the Tyrells, but maybe everybody else in the Reach expected the new regime to crash and burn and the Florents were the only ones prepared to gamble on it? Or Stannis was personally so hated and feared there ditto? As to Lord Alester's daughters, Sam's mother was already married with children, and maybe his aunt was as well? When lord's daughter isn't available, a niece from the next-oldest branch makes sense, particularly with a good dowry. Another person who may have arranged the marriage - as in convinced Stannis, not forced him, may have been maester Cressen. Of course, some of the proposed matches in ASoIaF just don't make any sense - like Ser Daven Lannister having been in negotiations for lord Redwyne's daughter when Tywin arranged a Frey marriage for him. Like, why? Why would lord Redwyne have ever considered an obscure landless Lannister a viable match for his daughter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 6 minutes ago, Maia said: OTOH, speaking of the Tullys, didn't Targaryen loyalists in the Riverlands, such as Whents, Darrys and Goodbrooks lose much of their land after Robert was victorious? Shouldn't the Tullys have been the ones to profit from it? And yes, given that they usually were on the winning side or neutral during various preceding conflicts, they should have gotten significantly stronger than they were at the time of the Conquest. Technically, yes, but Harrenhal and Darry are not exactly in the neighborhood of Riverrun, meaning lands in that region should have gone to other houses than the Tullys. And while we know that the Darrys lost much after the Rebellion, we don't know that the Whents lost that much. Harrenhal is still a great seat when Littlefinger is named Lord of Harrenhal. The Goodbrooks may have lost lands to the Tullys directly, I guess, if they are close to Riverrun. 6 minutes ago, Maia said: For that matter, do we know what happened to Harroways lands? The Harroway lands were split up by Maegor. Lord Harroway's Town passed to Alton Butterwell and the rest of the Harroway lands to Darnold Darry. The holdings of Harrenhal were reduced overtime, too, but one has to assume that Harren made the lands sworn directly to his monstrous castle - which were supposed to support him and his heirs - the largest holdings in the Riverlands. And they might still be the largest in the third century, although no longer large enough to make their lord rich while he also maintains Harrenhal in good shape. 6 minutes ago, Maia said: Regarding Stannis's Florent marriage - not only would he have whined about it if Robert had forced him into it, Cersei would have spitefully crowed about it as well, just like she did about Dragonstone allegedly being meant as a snub (according to GRRM it wasn't). Stannis doesn't seem to talk much about Selyse, and considering his general view of women he may have even more uncomfortable with a beautiful wife than a woman he had a reasonably good pretext to avoid. 6 minutes ago, Maia said: But could it be that no other Reach house of note wanted a marriage tie to the Baratheons at the time? I mean, it made political sense for the Baratheons to forge such a match with an implicit threat to the Tyrells, but maybe everybody else in the Reach expected the new regime to crash and burn and the Florents were the only ones prepared to gamble on it? Or Stannis was personally so hated and feared there ditto? As to Lord Alester's daughters, Sam's mother was already married with children, and maybe his aunt was as well? When lord's daughter isn't available, a niece from the next-oldest branch makes sense, particularly with a good dowry. I'd be surprised if Rhea Florent was already married to Lord Leyton Hightower at that time. She is Leyton's fourth wife, after all. The Baratheons had little reason to marry the king's brother and presumptive heir to a Florent in the first place. If they wanted a Reach match for Stannis - and there is little reason why they would want that in the first place, and not honor one of their loyal followers with such a marriage - then they should have targeted a more prestigious house. Even if they thought that Robert had no future ... such a royal match would have still been profitable. 6 minutes ago, Maia said: Another person who may have arranged the marriage - as in convinced Stannis, not forced him, may have been maester Cressen. Robert may have asked Cressen to talk to Stannis if he resisted the match ... but Stannis was a man grown at the time, possibly already the Lord of Dragonstone. He would have either chosen his own bride or Robert would have done it for him. Nobody else could have told him what to do. 6 minutes ago, Maia said: Of course, some of the proposed matches in ASoIaF just don't make any sense - like Ser Daven Lannister having been in negotiations for lord Redwyne's daughter when Tywin arranged a Frey marriage for him. Like, why? Why would lord Redwyne have ever considered an obscure landless Lannister a viable match for his daughter? The Lannisters are the Lannisters. They are rich as hell even if they are technically landless. And we actually don't know that Stafford's heir is landless as such. He was Joanna's brother, so Tywin could have granted him some lands, just as Tytos could have granted his brother Jason some lands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 46 minutes ago, Maia said: Regarding Stannis's Florent marriage - not only would he have whined about it if Robert had forced him into it, Cersei would have spitefully crowed about it as well, just like she did about Dragonstone allegedly being meant as a snub (according to GRRM it wasn't). But could it be that no other Reach house of note wanted a marriage tie to the Baratheons at the time? I mean, it made political sense for the Baratheons to forge such a match with an implicit threat to the Tyrells, but maybe everybody else in the Reach expected the new regime to crash and burn and the Florents were the only ones prepared to gamble on it? Or Stannis was personally so hated and feared there ditto? As to Lord Alester's daughters, Sam's mother was already married with children, and maybe his aunt was as well? When lord's daughter isn't available, a niece from the next-oldest branch makes sense, particularly with a good dowry. People really, really go overboard to find fault with the Selyse marriage Selyse is from House Florent, she may have been a Granddaughter of the current Lord Florent when the marriage took place. House Florent are highly prestigious, and it may well be that her mother's side of the family was also high in pedigree. This is a bigger factor in medieval noble marriage than how attractive she was And lets be fair, Selyse may have been more attractive in her youth. Seeing what she looks like after 10 years of marriage, a loveless, joyless and sexless marriage no less, may have put a dent in both her personality and her presentation skills. 46 minutes ago, Maia said: Of course, some of the proposed matches in ASoIaF just don't make any sense - like Ser Daven Lannister having been in negotiations for lord Redwyne's daughter when Tywin arranged a Frey marriage for him. Like, why? Why would lord Redwyne have ever considered an obscure landless Lannister a viable match for his daughter? It makes sense. Plenty of noble marriages involved people who were not going to be Lords. Simply not enough Lords to go around. Sometimes marriages were about diplomacy and marrying into a powerful House creates a bond. And, like Selyse it is about pedigree and Daven's pedigree is just as good as his cousin's Jaime. Daven is a Lannister of the Rock, but with great connections to other Westerland Houses Being a favoured nephew of the most powerful Lord in the realm and presumably close to the current Queen (close enough that he is made Warden) is a great political alliance for House Redwyne. Some lords would probably prefer short term gains than a grandson becoming a Lord at some point in the distant future Daven is a respected figure, we see this in how the Blackfish talks of him, in contrast to Stafford, or how Jaime talks to him, in contrast to his cousin Cleos. He was likely guaranteed a great career in the Westerlands with some military position or another So to be clear, Desmera may have been able to find better matches, but to claim the marriage itself makes no sense is just needlessly hyperbolic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 On 6/11/2021 at 3:22 AM, Universal Sword Donor said: And we know he fucking hated the Lannisters from his canon speech. No we don't. We know he loathed his wife, but 'fucking hated the Lannisters' is just a leap. He defends both Jaime and Tywin to Ned. Makes Jaime his Warden of the East. Talks of how great an honour it would be for Robin to be fostered with Tywin. We hear from Stannis how he and Robert as children were in awe of the 'King' they saw in Kings Landing. People seem to see Robert laughing at Jaime in the tourney as evidence of hate, but the entire commons were laughing. It was a funny spectacle, had it been some other knight who did the same thing Robert would still be laughing. Him making fun of his squires seems to be knightly behaviour 101 (and anyone who has been a youth player in a football team will have experienced something similar to those squires from the senior players) in GRRM's world. To be clear I'm not making some claim that he felt as close to them as he did the Starks, Arryns or Baratheons. But hated just does not ring true to what we have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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