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Who was on the Kingsguard before Arys Oakheart?


Angel Eyes

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In a similar vein to the Who was Master of Laws before Renly thread, who was on the Kingsguard before Arys Oakheart?

  • From AFFC, the readers know that Oakheart became a Kingsguard in roughly 290 AC (the last time he'd touched a woman).
  • After Robert's Rebellion, five Kingsguard needed to be found since Lewyn Martell and Jonothor Darry were KIA at the Battle of the Trident and Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, and Oswell Whent were slain at the Tower of Joy.
  • Two Kingsguard are holdovers from the reign of Aerys II: Barristan Selmy (promoted to Lord Commander) and Jaime Lannister.
  • The four other slots other than Arys that are filled by 298 AC (when AGOT starts) are Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, Mandon Moore, and Preston Greenfield.

So who had the other spot, some bloke who was KIA in Greyjoy's Rebellion or died shortly afterward?

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41 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

In a similar vein to the Who was Master of Laws before Renly thread, who was on the Kingsguard before Arys Oakheart?

  • From AFFC, the readers know that Oakheart became a Kingsguard in roughly 290 AC (the last time he'd touched a woman).
  • After Robert's Rebellion, five Kingsguard needed to be found since Lewyn Martell and Jonothor Darry were KIA at the Battle of the Trident and Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, and Oswell Whent were slain at the Tower of Joy.
  • Two Kingsguard are holdovers from the reign of Aerys II: Barristan Selmy (promoted to Lord Commander) and Jaime Lannister.
  • The four other slots other than Arys that are filled by 298 AC (when AGOT starts) are Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, Mandon Moore, and Preston Greenfield.

So who had the other spot, some bloke who was KIA in Greyjoy's Rebellion or died shortly afterward?

Dunno if anyone can help you.

AFAIK, neither Meryn Trant, nor Boris Blount, nor Mandon Moore, nor Preston Greenfield, are ever confirmed to have served for all 15 years since Robert's Rebellion.  We may be missing other names besides the man Arys Oakheart replaced.  

You may be expecting too much if you expect to know the name of every man who ever served on the KG during every single year of King Robert's reign.

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24 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Dunno if anyone can help you.

AFAIK, neither Meryn Trant, nor Boris Blount, nor Mandon Moore, nor Preston Greenfield, are ever confirmed to have served for all 15 years since Robert's Rebellion.  We may be missing other names besides the man Arys Oakheart replaced.  

You may be expecting too much if you expect to know the name of every man who ever served on the KG during every single year of King Robert's reign.

Well, Trant and Blount are implied to be old knights past their prime. We can only assume that they've been in the Kingsguard for a long time.

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3 hours ago, James Steller said:

Well, Trant and Blount are implied to be old knights past their prime. We can only assume that they've been in the Kingsguard for a long time.

Past what prime?  I don't think we can assume that at all.  And even if we could it would still leave the other 2.

These 4 knights are lacking in all kinds of virtues.  The implication of this is not that they have been on the KG for a long time, but rather that they were chosen because of a criterion other than merit -- namely, loyalty to the Lannisters.   That is not just true in AGOT, it was also presumably true when they were appointed, whenever that was -- whether 5, 10 or 15 years ago.

Boris Blount is fat, bald and grey.  But he made a respectable showing in a tournament as little as 9 years earlier.   If he is fat, bald and grey now, he may have been slightly less fat, bald and grey when appointed.

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An idea I tossed around in the other thread is that Silveraxe Fell could have become a KG following his friendship with Robert. He isn't described as the heir to Felwood and him being a great warrior could have resulted in him joining the KG.

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Past what prime?  I don't think we can assume that at all.  And even if we could it would still leave the other 2.

These 4 knights are lacking in all kinds of virtues.  The implication of this is not that they have been on the KG for a long time, but rather that they were chosen because of a criterion other than merit -- namely, loyalty to the Lannisters.   That is not just true in AGOT, it was also presumably true when they were appointed, whenever that was -- whether 5, 10 or 15 years ago.

Boris Blount is fat, bald and grey.  But he made a respectable showing in a tournament as little as 9 years earlier.   If he is fat, bald and grey now, he may have been slightly less fat, bald and grey when appointed.

Neither House Trant nor House Blount are from the West. Cersei turned Meryn and Boros into her creatures, they did not start out that way.

The Westerman in Robert's KG was Preston Greenfield and he is never mentioned as being Cersei's pet.

Chances are pretty good that some of the KG died during Robert's reign, considering they would have also fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion. It seems rather obvious that Arys Oakheart replaced a KG who died in that war.

One would also imagine that Richard Horpe was passed over in 290 AC. Back in 283 AC Cersei wouldn't have had the standing to advise her husband on who would make a good or bad KG.

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We can only speculate regarding the identity of Arys Oakhart' antecessor, but given that he was replaced around 290, it would fit nicely that he was a casualty of the Greyjoy's rebellion.

Robert had to choose five knights for his original kingsguard. Besides Blount, who was from the King's Landing area, all of them were from regions that had supported him in the war: there was a Trant (Stormlamds), a Moore (Vale), and a Greenfield (West). As there are very few knights in the North, it would fit that it was a knight from the Riverlands. Again, it would make sense that a knight from the Riverlands would be in the front lines during the assault at Pyke or the defenese of Seagard. At least that's what I like to think. :)

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One would also imagine that Richard Horpe was passed over in 290 AC. Back in 283 AC Cersei wouldn't have had the standing to advise her husband on who would make a good or bad KG.

If so, then my guess is that Cersei may have wanted Arys over Horpe because Arys looked the part.  I can't imagine that Cersei really cared that much about Horpe's reputation of being too fond of killing.  If the Kingsguard already had Boros Blount and Meryn Trant, the kingsguard probably lacked a lot of the dashing looks that the stories undoubtably played up.

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1 minute ago, The hairy bear said:

We can only speculate regarding the identity of Arys Oakhart' antecessor, but given that he was replaced around 290, it would fit nicely that he was a casualty of the Greyjoy's rebellion.

Robert had to choose five knights for his original kingsguard. Besides Blount, who was from the King's Landing area, all of them were from regions that had supported him in the war: there was a Trant (Stormlamds), a Moore (Vale), and a Greenfield (West). As there are very few knights in the North, it would fit that it was a knight from the Riverlands. Again, it would make sense that a knight from the Riverlands would be in the front lines during the assault at Pyke or the defenese of Seagard. At least that's what I like to think. :)

I'm not so sure that Robert cared that much about equal representation.  After the war was won, he probably would have turned to knightly families he knew from the Stormlands or from the Vale.  So my guess is it would probably be someone from one of those regions.  

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20 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not so sure that Robert cared that much about equal representation.

My hypothesis would be that it was Jon Arryn who suggested the first lineup of the KG, for political reasons. After all, we've told that it was Jon who brought Mandon Moore to the capital. I never got the feeling that Robert treated anhy of the KG as buddies, or had any kind of knightly camaraderie with them.

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5 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

My hypothesis would be that it was Jon Arryn who suggested the first lineup of the KG, for political reasons. After all, we've told that it was Jon who brought Mandon Moore to the capital. I never got the feeling that Robert treated anhy of the KG as buddies, or had any kind of knightly camaraderie with them.

I don't think the issue is camaraderie, I think it's simply that Robert would have turned to knightly houses that were familiar and friendly, or at least loyal. to the Baratheons.  Which perhaps explains why Trant and Blount are Kingsguards despite the fact that they don't appear to be exceptional knights.  

So either they were probably from a House in the Stormlands who Robert was familiar with or trusted, or from the Vale for either the same reason, or because Arryn could vouch for them.

I don't think the primary motivation for Kingsguards was to win political favors.  I think they were trying to get people that they could trust around Robert.  Which was probably a bit tricky since a bunch of the Houses out there probably resented the fact that Robert overthrew the Targaryens.

The Riverlands had mixed allegiences so they might be a bit too risky, especially since Robert really didn't have anyone from the Riverlands he was that close to.

Since Robert was indebted to the Lannisters, Greenfield's inclusion early on might have been a favor to Tywin, or Greenfield too may have been a later addition which occurred after Robert was more secure in his position.  (I'm not sure whether or not it was established when Greenfield became a Kingsguard).  Also the fact that the Westerlands stayed out of the war up until the Sack might have made it easier to have granted a spot to one of their knights.

I think early on Dorne and the Reach would have been disqualified because of their questionable loyalty.  

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50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Neither House Trant nor House Blount are from the West. Cersei turned Meryn and Boros into her creatures, they did not start out that way.

Well, presumably they started out as babies, as we all do.  

Nothing about your remark indicates they joined the Kingsguard first, and became Cersei's creatures second, as opposed to the other way around.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Westerman in Robert's KG was Preston Greenfield and he is never mentioned as being Cersei's pet.

I'm also aware of nothing suggesting he is above 30 or even 25 years of age.

No information is no information.  Odds are that at least one of these guys was appointed immediately following Robert's Rebellion.  But we can't say who.  Maybe Blount gets bonus points on account of being visibly aged.

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Following the thread of he died at the rebellion, he was likely to die after Seagard and Lannisport were attacked, perhaps supporting Selmy on Old Wyk or with Stannis. Or he was with Robert at Pyke. It’s not gonna be a Redwyne. All I can think of of those that died on the crown’s side that we know of is the dad of Podrick Payne. But if he was a KG you’d think we’d know. 
I guess it could be any knight from the Stormlands, Vale, Riverlands and Westerlands. 
 

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2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If so, then my guess is that Cersei may have wanted Arys over Horpe because Arys looked the part.  I can't imagine that Cersei really cared that much about Horpe's reputation of being too fond of killing.  If the Kingsguard already had Boros Blount and Meryn Trant, the kingsguard probably lacked a lot of the dashing looks that the stories undoubtably played up.

Could be, but even Cersei is not all that unlikely to have a good day. But then, Horpe is a Stormlander so she may not have wanted another of those on the KG, especially if Horpe had already distinguished himself in Robert's service during Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not so sure that Robert cared that much about equal representation.  After the war was won, he probably would have turned to knightly families he knew from the Stormlands or from the Vale.  So my guess is it would probably be someone from one of those regions.  

I don't think that kind of thing figured into that at all. Mandon Moore wasn't the kind of man Jon Arryn would suggest for the KG, so my guess is that Robert's original five spots were filled in a tourney or melee. That would have been the way for Mandon to prove his worth. And I'd also expect that the pool from which the candidates were chosen was pretty small, possibly only including the knights who had fought for Robert who were at KL after the Sack.

Robert was a tourney freak, after all, so this seems to be the obvious solution to this mess. Even more so considering the greatest Targaryen king also did that.

If they had gone by prominent names from crucial regions then there would have been fewer no-name houses in Robert's KG. Aerys II's KG had lots of big names, and that grew naturally. If there are five empty spots to be filled one or two of the chosen knights would have very prominent names, perhaps even more.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

My hypothesis would be that it was Jon Arryn who suggested the first lineup of the KG, for political reasons. After all, we've told that it was Jon who brought Mandon Moore to the capital. I never got the feeling that Robert treated anhy of the KG as buddies, or had any kind of knightly camaraderie with them.

That doesn't sit really with there being Trants and Blounts and Moores in the KG. Those are all completely irrelevant houses. Jon would have suggested one or two names from the Reach to bind certain houses there closer to Robert, and he would have houses who had distinguished themselves in the war or sacrificed much for Robert.

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nothing about your remark indicates they joined the Kingsguard first, and became Cersei's creatures second, as opposed to the other way around.

Common sense suggests as much. Blount and Trant aren't houses of the West, and Cersei wasn't even twenty when she married Robert. She had neither time nor opportunity to groom her own men. In fact, neither Gregor nor Sandor are her men later ... they are Tywin's men who he lends Cersei. Like Roose lends men to Ramsay.

The idea is that Blount and Trant ended up becoming Cersei's creatures because she favored them while Robert did not. Assuming they even are her creatures which is nothing that's actually confirmed - at least not while Robert is still alive. And afterwards Cersei is the one in charge, anyway. How loyal Blount is can be seen during the War of the Five Kings.

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55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Common sense suggests as much. Blount and Trant aren't houses of the West, and Cersei wasn't even twenty when she married Robert.

Is this some kind of circular argument?  I never assumed that Blount and Trant were appointed when Cersei married Robert.  I'm questioning that assumption.  And Kettleback is not a House of the West either.

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She had neither time nor opportunity to groom her own men. In fact, neither Gregor nor Sandor are her men later ... they are Tywin's men who he lends Cersei. Like Roose lends men to Ramsay.

I made no assumption that anyone was Cersei's man as distinct from Tywin's man.  In fact, I'd rather not assume that anyone is a Lannister man at all.  All I am saying is that we don't know when they were appointed.

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea is that Blount and Trant ended up becoming Cersei's creatures because she favored them while Robert did not.

Assuming that is the case, it could be either before or after their appointment to the Kingsguard.  Which happened we have no idea when.

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Maybe Jon Arryn knew Moore better and thought it was a fine choice. Better him than Lyn Corbray, an excellent warrior of ill reputation. 

Blount sounds like a guy who Robert might have liked during their youth. So maybe?

and Trant? Maybe there wasn't any other stormlander available.

But, yeah, Moore, Trant and Blount are oddities in terms of the political calculations made by Jon Arryn at the start.  So, it might well be Robert's choices.

There is of course no way to know who was in the KG before Arys, but the idea he died during the Greyjoy's rebellions sounds plausible.

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15 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Is this some kind of circular argument?  I never assumed that Blount and Trant were appointed when Cersei married Robert.  I'm questioning that assumption.  And Kettleback is not a House of the West either.

You may not assume that, but it is the general assumption considering the fact that Trant is described as a guy getting old in AFfC ... and Blount cannot be very young, either, considering he must have had some talent at some point or else he would have never joined the KG. In that sense Blount and Trant are our main suspects for KG who were named when Robert filled the five empty spots.

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Blount sounds like a guy who Robert might have liked during their youth. So maybe?

Some people think the Blount knight whose squires mocked Howland at Harrenhal was young Boros. I think that could work.

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

But, yeah, Moore, Trant and Blount are oddities in terms of the political calculations made by Jon Arryn at the start.  So, it might well be Robert's choices.

I think that's why we should rather assume there was a tourney or melee or something along those lines to fill the empty spots after the Rebellion rather than a careful deliberation. Because if that was done then basically neither of the five choices makes sense, not even Arys Oakheart - who may be from a prestigious Reach house but one who fought against Robert, so there would no good reason to favor them.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You may not assume that, ...

I don't.

If we were betting men playing the odds, then I suppose we could consider such factors as Trant's age or Bount's age.  But we don't really know.  However compelling you think the evidence is of Trant's age or Blount's age (and I only recall Blount being visibly aged, though I could be wrong), it can hardly be precise enough to prove that a man was appointed exactly 15 years ago as distinct from, say, 10 years ago.

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11 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I don't.

If we were betting men playing the odds, then I suppose we could consider such factors as Trant's age or Bount's age.  But we don't really know.  However compelling you think the evidence is of Trant's age or Blount's age (and I only recall Blount being visibly aged, though I could be wrong), it can hardly be precise enough to prove that a man was appointed exactly 15 years ago as distinct from, say, 10 years ago.

For the KG, I don't think a man past thirty would be considered under normal circumstances. It is a job for men in their prime, not an honor you bestow on men who are beyond their prime. Trant is dismissed as an old men when the prospect of him defending Margaery's honor comes up in AFfC.

And we have no reason to assume that any KG but Arys Oakheart joined the order at a later date. The four others are rather likely to have been chosen shortly after Robert took the throne.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For the KG, I don't think a man past thirty would be considered under normal circumstances. It is a job for men in their prime, not an honor you bestow on men who are beyond their prime. Trant is dismissed as an old men when the prospect of him defending Margaery's honor comes up in AFfC.

And we have no reason to assume that any KG but Arys Oakheart joined the order at a later date. The four others are rather likely to have been chosen shortly after Robert took the throne.

I'm not assuming anything.  That's you, not me.  I am the one refusing to make assumptions.  I'm refusing to rule out anything, including that all 4 were appointed in 283.

It was very clever of your to conclude, based on a teenaged girl calling Trant "old", that Trant is exactly 47, and not a year less.    It was also very clever of you to conclude that he was appointed at exactly age 30 and not a year more, because of your very clever assessment of exactly what is normal for the Kingsguard.

But it might just be little more clever if you were humble enough to admit that we don't actually know when Trant and Blount were appointed, or exactly how old they are, or whether or not the circumstance of their appointment were "normal".

My thinking is not as precise as yours.  To me, if it is plausible that a teenaged girl could call a 47 year old "old", it is also plausible that she might call a 42 year old "old".  And if it is plausible that a warrior could be appointed to the KG at age 30, I find it hard to entirely rule out the possibility that he might be appointed at age 35.

ETA:  And how old was Duncan the Tall when he first joined the KG?

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2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

 

It was very clever of your to conclude, based on a teenaged girl calling Trant "old", that Trant is exactly 47, and not a year less.    It was also very clever of you to conclude that he was appointed at exactly age 30 and not a year more, because of your very clever assessment of exactly what is normal for the Kingsguard.

But it might just be little more clever if you were humble enough to admit that we don't actually know when Trant and Blount were appointed, or exactly how old they are, or whether or not the circumstance of their appointment were "normal".

My thinking is not as precise as yours.  To me, if it is plausible that a teenaged girl could call a 47 year old "old", it is also plausible that she might call a 42 year old "old".  And if it is plausible that a warrior could be appointed to the KG at age 30, I find it hard to entirely rule out the possibility that he might be appointed at age 35.

 

You do know that Jaime also said that Boros was growing old, right? And I'm not talking about the Jaime before ASOS, I'm talking about the one-handed and humbled Jaime who's rethinking his life. He looks at Boros Blount and sees a "craven" who is "fat, aging, and never more than ordinary" yet he is also someone still capable of beating Jaime in a sword fight. I point all that out to try and establish that Jaime has no reason to be biased in his own favour in that moment, it's a depressing thought that Boros Blount of all people could kill him without much trouble.

So no, it wasn't just the word of a teenaged girl that we need to rely on.

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