The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Fowl Dilemma

[Luzifer's right hand]

11 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

You might forget that the vegetable things that we eat are by no means guaranteed to be unharmful. Find things that don’t have pesticides for real.  I liked The Good Place because they postulate that nobody gets into heaven after a certain time. I have tried being Vegan/vegetarian many times and I can’t stay healthy. Try being decent, and you have background noise with lots of it being complete ultra critical garbage. Puritans. I have my mocking abilities on low.

I hate to say this, but if you want organic gardening, look to Prince Charles. 

 

 

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism but the line that all consumption is equally unethical is just a lie people tell themselves to feel better about themselves. 

 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I believe that Vat grown meat when viable as for mass production will also be safer than Farmed / wild meat.

Vat grown can be done in much more sterile conditions which should also cut down or eliminate the need to add antibiotics.  Most of our food scares happen because of the way we farm, they conditions the animals are kept in and what they are fed.

Vat Grown is also much less likely to catch diseases since the vats shouldn't be accessible to other wildlife or even humans (not in PPE).

 

 

[Darzin]

I suspect after a century of vat grown meat society will look at slaughtering animals as barbaric. That said I'm not a vegetarian or vegan personally. I find the disconnect in modern society from where our food comes from troubling. In boy scouts I had to butcher a rabbit at the age of eleven and I think it was a good lesson. Our food has a price and it's important to know that. 

[HoodedCrow]

I would eat insect products or vat grown meat. When I’ve been vegan, I got drawn and sick, and lost hair, so I need quality protein from somewhere. I try to buy cage free eggs, etc., and must eat animal products often to survive. Less is more. You name it, I could critique it.

[IheartIheartTesla]

11 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Wuhan again. Covid now. What next. Zoonotic transmission. Blame Zedong. 

Insects arent mammals (edit: or poultry or birds), so the risks of some disease making the jump is different and probably much smaller.

[HoodedCrow]

Insects are easy to breed. I had to breed fruit flies for genetics. I know their gender from a short distance. It’s not a very useful skill, but I substantially remember the genetics. I would eat them rather than starve and many cultures do. Could there be vector issues. Yes! I bring you, the mosquito, and the flea.

[IFR]

6 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Insects arent mammals (edit: or poultry or birds), so the risks of some disease making the jump is different and probably much smaller.

Insect consumption is an interesting approach. From my understanding there's not much data on how insects experience pain (as Starkess observed, that is a potential consideration for simpler organisms). I think from that perspective the cultured meat is a more conservative approach to humane sustenance.

And the propagation of that form of consumption would pose a challenge. It's largely associated as a disgusting food, and people would be reluctant to try to alter that mentality.

[Impmk2]

13 hours ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

I believe that Vat grown meat when viable as for mass production will also be safer than Farmed / wild meat.

Vat grown can be done in much more sterile conditions which should also cut down or eliminate the need to add antibiotics.  Most of our food scares happen because of the way we farm, they conditions the animals are kept in and what they are fed.

Vat Grown is also much less likely to catch diseases since the vats shouldn't be accessible to other wildlife or even humans (not in PPE).

 

 

Yeah I kinda struggle with this. Having done a decent amount of lab cell culture work I know how much of a pain they are to keep pathogen free. Cells grown in a lab don't have an immune system. They're hyper suspetible to bacteria / viruses / parasites, and if anything at all gets in it'll just grow unchecked. I know the labs currently growing lab meat say that aren't / won't be using antibiotics, but on an industrial scale the temptation to throw some antimicrobial agents in as a layer of protection against throwing away large quantities of product out will be quite strong imo.

Having said that I 100% agree that we need to move away from industrial scale animal consumption for environmental reasons if nothing else. Lab grown meat has the potential fill that gap, would be very interested to try some. My wife is 100% vegetarian (I eat vegetarian about 4-5 days a week mostly just for convenience in food prep these days), and has said she'd be onboard with trying some too, first 'animal' meat she would've intentionally eaten in a decade.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, IFR said:

Insect consumption is an interesting approach. From my understanding there's not much data on how insects experience pain (as Starkess observed, that is a potential consideration for simpler organisms). I think from that perspective the cultured meat is a more conservative approach to humane sustenance.

And the propagation of that form of consumption would pose a challenge. It's largely associated as a disgusting food, and people would be reluctant to try to alter that mentality.

Maybe for a generation, and only in some cultures.  I'm sure there have been other foods that were once considered disgusting by some and then became extremely popular / common.

 

[IFR]

11 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Maybe for a generation, and only in some cultures.  I'm sure there have been other foods that were once considered disgusting by some and then became extremely popular / common.

 

Yes, like cultured meat I think changing attitudes with regards to even insect consumption is possible. A single generation is probably optimistic, but over several decades it is something that could occur - and may occur.

However, at that point the number of animals who have been subjected to a barbaric life and death will likely reach the trillions, which is mind boggling. In addition to extinction events due to environmental damage, from a non-anthropocentric point of view, that would put our interval of time as the single most tragic period of all of Earth's history.

[S John]

13 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Maybe for a generation, and only in some cultures.  I'm sure there have been other foods that were once considered disgusting by some and then became extremely popular / common.

 

I also think that the disconnect most people already have from their food sources is an advantage in this case.  For pretty much every Westerner not in the food or agriculture industries meat is something you get out of a package at the store or shows up on your plate at a restaurant. If the cultured ribeye looks like a ‘normal’ ribeye I’m not sure it is a huge leap. I think it’s really a question of terminology and marketing. Come up with something that sounds enticing and responsible like ‘sustainably grown’. If there’s a big orange sticker on the package that says ‘VAT MEAT’ it’ll be a harder road.

[HoodedCrow]

When I was in France I ate the local, which was a big dish of lightly steamed snails in the shell. You were given a pin implement. In China, my DH was given a big bowl of dead  mealy worms, and he ate them. It’s mind over matter.

[kairparavel]

I think you have to axe lab meat. First, because it's not meat, and second you're still normalizing the consumption of 'meat'. If you truly want to end meat consumption you have to end meat.

[TheLastWolf]

11 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Insects arent mammals (edit: or poultry or birds), so the risks of some disease making the jump is different and probably much smaller.

Yet the probability exists. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

6 hours ago, kairparavel said:

I think you have to axe lab meat. First, because it's not meat, and second you're still normalizing the consumption of 'meat'. If you truly want to end meat consumption you have to end meat.

I still believe with will become the mainstream version of meat because it will allow a small number of giant corporations to control the market. 

I would prefer not meat consumption at all but perfection is the enemy of good

[Starkess]

On 6/9/2021 at 7:14 PM, IFR said:

We agree in some respect. I personally have no problem eating hunted meat, or partaking of eggs from people who I know raise their chickens to my arbitrary standards of good welfare. The wild is a terrible place, and "natural" deaths are often very brutal.

Yes, exactly.

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I'm not compelled by the argument of nature though. What is natural? Genetic engineering isn't natural. We do it anyway, and it has become an essential part of food production.

I have a much broader definition of natural, I suppose. I mean, humans are animals. Basically anything that humans do is natural. But my point is that not eating meat requires some sort of advancement above and beyond the typical diet of homo sapiens. If there were a global apocalypse tomorrow, veganism wouldn't be a viable option. Again, this isn't an argument against veganism. I mean I love me a good bag of Doritos and that ain't natural either. But I think it is an argument in favor of an omnivorous diet.

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It's even to the point where habits such as veganism are often derided. In what other circumstance is the effort to reduce the massive blatant torture of others considered absurdity?

The derision of veganism is often directly tied to the high-horse moral superiority of vegans. Most people really dislike evangelism.

[Mentat]

I personally really enjoy eating meat (and fish, seafood and dairy). I've never tried going vegetarian.

 

I acknowledge that both animal welfare and sustainability have to become part of the equation of farming (though not only farming, most industries affect these in some degree). I would vote for a politician demanding farm animals are treated well during their lives (up until they're butchered) and that meat production be done in a sustainable way, even if this might up my personal food bill noticeably. A politician (or anyone barring my doctor, really) telling me what I must or mustn't eat would not find a sympathetic audience, though.

 

Though I personally may be able to afford more expensive meat and may be willing to pay more for sustainable, ethical farming, the whole fast food/processed food industry relies on cheap meat to operate. There are lots of people (many of them with low income) who enjoy these places and make a living working for them who might be unappreciative.

 

There's also the issue that farm animals are farm animals. They will not survive out of farms. Exploiting them may appear cruel, but the moment we don't have a use for them, we'll just get rid of them. There's no ecological niche waiting for them to come and fill outside of farms.

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 hours ago, Mentat said:

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There's also the issue that farm animals are farm animals. They will not survive out of farms. Exploiting them may appear cruel, but the moment we don't have a use for them, we'll just get rid of them. There's no ecological niche waiting for them to come and fill outside of farms.

While mostly true*, not sure why this matters.  If you're raising something just to kill it and eat it what's the problem if its population is drastically reduced?  I don't understand why this is an issue.

eta: domesticated pigs and goats can become feral pretty easily, some dogs and cats as well.  cattle less so, and chickens probably not much at all.  

[ithanos]

On 6/11/2021 at 12:32 PM, kairparavel said:

I think you have to axe lab meat. First, because it's not meat, and second you're still normalizing the consumption of 'meat'. If you truly want to end meat consumption you have to end meat.

I agree with not calling it meat but I don't think it should be axed.

I'd be onboard with lab cultured tissue of animal proteins and fats for human consumption if it can be developed to deliver the nutritional, satiety and enjoyment (texture/taste) equivalent of animal meat. I think we are decades away from recreating true cultured tissue to replace animal grown tissue, but I hope I'm around to see it and then perhaps we'll see the end of industrial scale animal husbandry for consumption.      

But what about the food we feed our pets? The pet food market (aquarium fish feed, dog food, cat food etc) is expected to head north of $100 billion in the coming years. A lot of that is animal by-products.

As a last thought, I fear the day of the Triffids. Once we've weaned off animal grown meat, if we truly wish to transcend as a species we need to figure out how to assemble basic molecules from nutrients instead of killing plants.

 

[Darzin]

On 6/11/2021 at 10:32 AM, kairparavel said:

I think you have to axe lab meat. First, because it's not meat, and second you're still normalizing the consumption of 'meat'. If you truly want to end meat consumption you have to end meat.

Why though? Doesn't lab meat get rid of most of the objections to meat consumption? Without the enviromental and ethical issues why should we abstain from lab meat?