LØkI, a TVA/Disney+ series [SPOILERS]

[Corvinus85]

Great first episode. I don't really have many theories, but I enjoyed the ride.

[RumHam]

Pillboy from The Good Place!

Everyone thought WandaVision was setting up the upcoming multiverse stuff but it seems like this show will instead. 

They had an opportunity to comment on Agents of Shield's status when Coulson's death came up. Seems like if they wanted to establish it was really part of the MCU a throw away line there could have done it. 

[Corvinus85]

6 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Pillboy from The Good Place!

Everyone thought WandaVision was setting up the upcoming multiverse stuff but it seems like this show will instead. 

They had an opportunity to comment on Agents of Shield's status when Coulson's death came up. Seems like if they wanted to establish it was really part of the MCU a throw away line there could have done it. 

Yes, I was annoyed by that.

[Macklunkey]

I really enjoyed that. You can tell them TH has a great time playing Loki. This has all the makings of a great show. Looking forward to seeing where it goes.

[sifth]

I really liked this show as well, so far it's off to a much better start compared to the other two shows, IMO

 

[Werthead]

Interesting. So there isn't a multiverse. The TVA simply snip off the errant branches if they get out of control (so they didn't step in during Endgame because they already knew Cap was going to fix everything, apart from the Loki stuff, and even say as much). But multiverses were possible in the past and maybe again in the future.

Unless the TVA are full of shit, of course, and just presenting themselves as all-seeing and all-powerful when they are very much not.

[sifth]

15 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Interesting. So there isn't a multiverse. The TVA simply snip off the errant branches if they get out of control (so they didn't step in during Endgame because they already knew Cap was going to fix everything, apart from the Loki stuff, and even say as much). But multiverses were possible in the past and maybe again in the future.

Unless the TVA are full of shit, of course, and just presenting themselves as all-seeing and all-powerful when they are very much not.

Yea, but this causes other plot holes when you think of the other Gamora out there. Though every time travel story has paradoxes, plot holes and things that simply don't make sense, so I just don't think about it most of the time.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, but this causes other plot holes when you think of the other Gamora out there. Though every time travel story has paradoxes, plot holes and things that simply don't make sense, so I just don't think about it most of the time.

Does Gamora’s existence post-Blip create a new time line?  Or is that more of a break in time and jumping back into an existing timeline?  Loki exists outside of the mobieus loop the Avengers create with the “time Heist” and Roger’s returning the stones.  

Everyone else is inside that loop.

I’m curious about the drawer full of infinity stones...

[sifth]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Does Gamora’s existence post-Blip create a new time line?  Or is that more of a break in time and jumping back into an existing timeline?  Loki exists outside of the mobieus loop the Avengers create with the “time Heist” and Roger’s returning the stones.  

I’m curious about the drawer full of infinity stones...

I mean Thanos coming into the future and getting defeated by the Avengers seems like it would cause some massive changes to the time line if you ask me. How exactly do these guys fix something big like that, lol

[Werthead]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean Thanos coming into the future and getting defeated by the Avengers seems like it would cause some massive changes to the time line if you ask me. How exactly do these guys fix something big like that, lol

They didn't need to. The Avengers did it for them.

Gamora is a good point though. The difference is presumably that an errant Loki on the loose with the Tesseract would cause a complete shitstorm to the timeline (as indeed he may already have done, if the "other Loki" is another version of him where the TVA didn't get a handle on him fast) whilst Gamora being alive again is much less likely to cause that kind of problem. It looks like they have a variance tolerance (the red line) which they allow to exist before they step in.

[sifth]

Just now, Werthead said:

They didn't need to. The Avengers did it for them.

Gamora is a good point though. The difference is presumably that an errant Loki on the loose with the Tesseract would cause a complete shitstorm to the timeline (as indeed he may already have done, if the "other Loki" is another version of him where the TVA didn't get a handle on him fast) whilst Gamora being alive again is much less likely to cause that kind of problem. It looks like they have a variance tolerance (the red line) which they allow to exist before they step in.

So how do you fix the fact that there is now a timeline where Thanos vanishes from 2014? Because that's what I was talking about and the Avengers did not fix that, lol

[RumHam]

Yeah Gamora should be another variant. 

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean Thanos coming into the future and getting defeated by the Avengers seems like it would cause some massive changes to the time line if you ask me. How exactly do these guys fix something big like that, lol

I think this doesn't matter because for whatever reason, that was all supposed to happen according to the time keepers. 

[sifth]

Just now, RumHam said:

Yeah Gamora should be another variant. 

I think this doesn't matter because for whatever reason, that was all supposed to happen according to the time keepers. 

Like I said in my first post, this is a problem all time travel stories run into, so you really just have to kind of let it go.

[Werthead]

6 minutes ago, sifth said:

So how do you fix the fact that there is now a timeline where Thanos vanishes from 2014? Because that's what I was talking about and the Avengers did not fix that, lol

Yes, they did. Cap returned the stone to Morag a second after War Machine and Nebula removed it, which collapsed that timeline.

I'm assuming if he hadn't, the TVA could have done so themselves by targeting the moment of variance, not the consequences (i.e. they don't have to fight Thanos's entire army, they just need to identify where the split happened and intervened to "unhappen" it).

[sifth]

11 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Yes, they did. Cap returned the stone to Morag a second after War Machine and Nebula removed it, which collapsed that timeline.

I'm assuming if he hadn't, the TVA could have done so themselves by targeting the moment of variance, not the consequences (i.e. they don't have to fight Thanos's entire army, they just need to identify where the split happened and intervened to "unhappen" it).

He returned the stone to that timeline, but Thanos from that timeline/reality still goes into the future to fight the Avengers, along with Gamora and Nebula, so all those characters should not exist in that timeline/reality anymore. Cap returning the stone doesn't fix that.

[RumHam]

12 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Yes, they did. Cap returned the stone to Morag a second after War Machine and Nebula removed it, which collapsed that timeline.

I'm assuming if he hadn't, the TVA could have done so themselves by targeting the moment of variance, not the consequences (i.e. they don't have to fight Thanos's entire army, they just need to identify where the split happened and intervened to "unhappen" it).

I think even if he returns the stone a second later the TVA would still want to set off one of their reset bombs. He just shouldn't be there. Even if no one notices it's still a a divergence that he's there for a second. It's also still a divergence that Rhodey and Nebula were there and punched Quill. 

As we've discussed before the idea that cap could fix things by returning the stones never made any sense to me. So now I can assume the TVA cleaned up after him. 

By the way the draw full of infinity stones and them being used as paper weights should also put to rest the idea that only fucking with the stones creates a branching timeline. The TVA don't seem concerned with them at all. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

Looking good so far. 

I lost interest in Falcon/Winter Soldier and did not finish it(Daniel Brühl was great though) but this looks promising again. Back to WandaVision form. 

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Interesting. So there isn't a multiverse. The TVA simply snip off the errant branches if they get out of control (so they didn't step in during Endgame because they already knew Cap was going to fix everything, apart from the Loki stuff, and even say as much). But multiverses were possible in the past and maybe again in the future.

Unless the TVA are full of shit, of course, and just presenting themselves as all-seeing and all-powerful when they are very much not.

The way I understood was that there are still many parallel universes, with the time flow going in the same direction for all. So there is still a multiverse caused by realities, rather than timelines.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

The way I understood was that there are still many parallel universes, with the time flow going in the same direction for all. So there is still a multiverse caused by realities, rather than timelines.

They say there is definitively one glorious timeline and none others, and they stop alternate timelines from propagating. They distinctly say there is no multiverse, and they are dedicated to stopping the multiverse from coming into existence (assuming the Dr. Strange 2 title and the Spider-Man: No Way Home leaks aren't massive foilers, we can assume they ultimately fail).

[john]

Very enjoyable. That was a much more adept way of making Loki a good guy than anything the comics managed, while still having the cool villainous Loki in the background. Which does make me wonder why the TVA is so casual with Loki when the other one has possibly already escaped their control and is in any case killing their agents with ease. Their failsafes don’t seem very safe since they’re dependent on getting to a device before he does, and naturally he turns the tables twice. It’s only because he had a moment of sincere reflection that he was got under control in the end.

Otherwise, it was clever enough, good performances, the jokes landed. I was absorbed enough that I refrained from checking my phone to see where the hell I knew Unit B-15 from until the end (Wunmi Mosaku from Lovecraft Country of course, I somehow knew she was British).

I don’t think there was any plot holes emerging. They’re clear that the sacred timeline (timeline works in mysterious ways) means that as long as stuff happened that’s supposed to happen it’s fine. Presumably second Gamora is part of the intended timeline.