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Corvinus85

LØkI, a TVA/Disney+ series [SPOILERS]

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Posted (edited)

All I know is, that Crocodile better talk next week, lol

 

I can't help, but think of someone describing this show to me and saying "alright, now this is the part where things start to get weird", after the ending we just got, lol

Edited by sifth

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Kal Corp said:

Variants aren't a problem. Variants that jeopardize the sacred timeline are. Most of the time these multiversal timelines don't matter in the least - billions of Lokis doing their own thing, dying in spectacularly stupid ways, and that timeline doesn't interfere.

But sometimes, a timeline does interfere with the Sacred one - someone invents time travel, or some other way of manipulating other universes, or something like that - and sometimes IN THOSE cases they might do something that screws with the Sacred timeline. 

Thanks for the clarification, though, I have a hard time believing that a lot of the TVA agents that we've seen so far as having been a real danger to the Sacred Timeline. It seems arbitrary to me.

(Which may be part of the reason whyvthe TVA are the bad guys).

 

Edited by Knight of Ashes

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Mobius noooo! Well, he’s probably fine I guess if he’s in some pruning reality with all his variants. I really thought he’d bought it but really wasn’t convinced that would be how Hiddleston went out of the MCU. If every manifestation of different variants from different timelines is just imprisoned somewhere then it’s easy to see how that can be exploded to give you a multiverse.

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

I just don’t see how her life can mean nothing to any timeline, if she existed as a child and so did Loki, then there must have been two timelines for as many years as she was old. That doesn’t sound like something the TVA can let slide for so long, surely that would red line way before the scene we saw?

I mean, surely the end scene proves that nothing we know about how the TVA deal with different timelines is accurate. I know a Loki is a shapeshifter but Richard E Grant has surely been a Loki for even longer than young Sylvie or our Loki. And the other Loki’s all presumably running at the same time.

How they’re dealing with the gender fluidity thing bothers me. We know Loki is gender fluid on the sacred timeline but all we get to see is one male version and one different female version? Neither of them change at any point? That’s not exactly making the most of that concept. It was cool that he fell in love with himself though.

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8 hours ago, sifth said:

Yea, but how does that fix Thanos, Gamora and Nebula no longer existing in his timeline, since they all travel into the future to battle The Avengers, lol

The timeline which Thanos vanishes from is "damaged" (or now a variant) because of his disappearance, the Stone being removed from Morag etc. That timeline is repaired when Cap returns the Stone to Morag. The ripples to that timeline vanish and it becomes, effectively, the same as the "main" timeline. Thanos and his entire army become variants, but since the Avengers wipe out Thanos's entire army and since this was "supposed to happen" - i.e. it's a key part of the Sacred Timeline - the TVA does not need to get involved. If the Avengers had failed, maybe the TVA would have intervened.

The only loose end is Gamora, but she has so far not had any impact on the timeline big enough to cause a rogue timeline and trigger an intervention by the TVA, and if Loki ends with the TVA destroyed, then that never becomes an issue.

Presumably the 2012 variant timeline - caused by Loki's escape - was eliminated by the TVA in Episode 1 through their purging-bomb thingy, which halted degradation of the timeline and reset it so Loki never escaped with the Tesseract. 

The Sceptre is a good point, first in that returning it would be weird - although Cap presumably can just return it to SHIELD for storage with a nod and a wink (and since the timelines are re-merging back into one, the HYDRA agents' memory of Cap apparently being a HYDRA agent would fade after a brief period) - but also Cap might have not bothered if they'd assumed the entire 2012 timeline was fucked up due to Loki doing a runner with the Tesseract (since they don't know the TVA exists to fix these things). However, it appears that the producers confirmed that Cap did return all the Stones to their correct time period, leaving only Loki's Tesseract as a rogue element (one now fixed by the TVA).

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

3 Loki's? Is the black guy a Thor then?

Oh my mistake I wasn't counting the alligator for some reason. 

  

2 hours ago, john MCG said:

How they’re dealing with the gender fluidity thing bothers me. We know Loki is gender fluid on the sacred timeline but all we get to see is one male version and one different female version? Neither of them change at any point? That’s not exactly making the most of that concept. It was cool that he fell in love with himself though.

I think this complaint is a bit premature. There's still two episodes for him to hook up with the old man in tights or the alligator. 

Edit: as for Mobius he pretty much has to be on that post-apocolyptic earth with Loki. With two episodes left I just don't think the show has time for him to be off doing his own thing. I wonder if that's an earth where Loki did win in Avengers and later came to regret it when he couldn't defend the earth from something else. (Not Ultron though, since he'd would never have existed... Probably not Thanos because he didn't really trash cities.)

Edited by RumHam

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6 hours ago, Denvek said:

So is Ravenna one of the actual Timekeepers? She clearly knows the full truth and believes in the TVA's mission anyway.

Ravenna is the girlfriend of Immortus in the comics at one point.  We won't see Kang, unless it's some sort of Thanos-at-the-end-of-the-first-Avengers type of stinger cameo.

I never was on board with the "Timekeeper looks like Kang" train. Didn't seem like it to me.  I still think we might get Immortus though.  He's much more involved with the Time Keepers.  Kang is one who tries to take them down.

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

The timeline which Thanos vanishes from is "damaged" (or now a variant) because of his disappearance, the Stone being removed from Morag etc. That timeline is repaired when Cap returns the Stone to Morag. The ripples to that timeline vanish and it becomes, effectively, the same as the "main" timeline. Thanos and his entire army become variants, but since the Avengers wipe out Thanos's entire army and since this was "supposed to happen" - i.e. it's a key part of the Sacred Timeline - the TVA does not need to get involved. If the Avengers had failed, maybe the TVA would have intervened.

The only loose end is Gamora, but she has so far not had any impact on the timeline big enough to cause a rogue timeline and trigger an intervention by the TVA, and if Loki ends with the TVA destroyed, then that never becomes an issue.

 

Yea, nothing you said made any sense. Power Stone or no Power Stone, Thanos is still picking up that signal from Nebula and going into the future to battle the Avengers. Cap would need to jam that signal or something to prevent that from happening. Quill might still get the Power Stone, but the entire timeline wont happen until the TVA fixes it or something.

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4 hours ago, sifth said:

All I know is, that Crocodile better talk next week, lol

 

I can't help, but think of someone describing this show to me and saying "alright, now this is the part where things start to get weird", after the ending we just got, lol

After the the mid credit scene showing the 4 Lokis, they listed 4 additional guests stars, starting with Richard Grant, so I assume CrocoLoki will speak. 

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9 hours ago, Kal Corp said:

Variants aren't a problem. Variants that jeopardize the sacred timeline are. Most of the time these multiversal timelines don't matter in the least - billions of Lokis doing their own thing, dying in spectacularly stupid ways, and that timeline doesn't interfere.

But sometimes, a timeline does interfere with the Sacred one - someone invents time travel, or some other way of manipulating other universes, or something like that - and sometimes IN THOSE cases they might do something that screws with the Sacred timeline. 

I don’t think the show has explicitly said this, although this explanation does solve a lot of problems. With this view, Sylvie was in her own timeline as a child and then for some reason, she made a decision that would’ve eventually lead to her interfering with the sacred timeline. So the timekeepers (or whoever is actually engineering this) only need one of the timelines to turn out how they want. It also means that the Ancient One was right to express concern about her own reality missing an infinity stone, because it would keep existing otherwise (I don’t like the idea of the TVA arriving just after Cap fixes things and wiping everyone out, rendering his whole mission pointless).

The other option that occurred to me (borrowing a plot twist from a Doctor Who episode), when you’re dealing with people whose memories have been wiped, the TVA could’ve only existed for a week and we wouldn’t know any different. They’re presented with jobs under the guise that they need to preserve the sacred timeline, when actually what they’re doing is creating it, whittling down all the other ones gradually. So all these instances of ‘why didn’t the TVA do x y or z’ are because they only just started doing the job and have a long way to go.

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6 hours ago, sifth said:

Cap would need to jam that signal or something to prevent that from happening.

I don’t see a problem with that, he has as many do-overs as he wants. 

10 hours ago, john MCG said:

How they’re dealing with the gender fluidity thing bothers me. We know Loki is gender fluid on the sacred timeline but all we get to see is one male version and one different female version? Neither of them change at any point?

Everyone got a bit carried away with the fluidity, it makes sense for an internal TVA document to list him as fluid because you might encounter a Loki of either sex. But other than that one document, we’ve seen a male Loki who appears to have born male and have no inclination to change, and a female Sylvie who appears to have been born female and have no inclination to change.

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Folks, surely if we've learned one thing by now, it is that the TVA is not what it seems, that it is built on lies, and so we can reasonably answer all quibbles about why the TVA don't prune all variants immediately and so on by simply noting that the Sacred Timeline stuff is all bullshit?

8 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Ravenna is the girlfriend of Immortus in the comics at one point.  We won't see Kang, unless it's some sort of Thanos-at-the-end-of-the-first-Avengers type of stinger cameo.

I never was on board with the "Timekeeper looks like Kang" train. Didn't seem like it to me.  I still think we might get Immortus though.  He's much more involved with the Time Keepers.  Kang is one who tries to take them down.

Since Immortus basically is Kang, this seems like an unnecessary additional step to me. Kang being behind the fake Timekeepers still sounds the most likely, though I do think that's likely to be a last-episode reveal or end-of-penultimate-episode cliffhanger. 

 

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35 minutes ago, mormont said:

Folks, surely if we've learned one thing by now, it is that the TVA is not what it seems, that it is built on lies, and so we can reasonably answer all quibbles about why the TVA don't prune all variants immediately and so on by simply noting that the Sacred Timeline stuff is all bullshit?

The motivations are clearly bullshit, but they still appear to be shooting for one timeline and trimming others. So I think it’s still legitimate to question why the TVA would or wouldn’t do something.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, sifth said:

Yea, nothing you said made any sense. Power Stone or no Power Stone, Thanos is still picking up that signal from Nebula and going into the future to battle the Avengers. Cap would need to jam that signal or something to prevent that from happening. Quill might still get the Power Stone, but the entire timeline wont happen until the TVA fixes it or something.

As the film said, complete with a PowerPoint presentation, returning the Stones to their point of origin undoes the formation of the branch timeline, or "unhappens" it. Obviously it did form and the fallout of that was real in the MCU and consequences took place (hence Iron Man is still dead, Gamora 2.0 is still roaming around and Avengers HQ was destroyed) but it's no longer an issue because the consequences were eliminated. The errant timeline created by the Stone being taken from Morag no longer exists, it collapsed back into the main timeline; the errant timeline created by the Tesseract being taken from New York in 2012 was collapsed by the TVA; the errant timelines created by the Tesseract being taken (again) from the SHIELD base in 1970 and the Aether from Asgard in 2013 and the Sceptre from New York in 2012 have all been collapsed by Cap as well.

Whilst I agree the TVA are full of shit, its also clear they are very much focused on preserving the single timeline, and I suspect this show will end with their elimination and the formation of multiple timelines (possibly setting up Spider-Man: No Way Home and Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness and Ant-Man & the Wasp: Quantumania), possibly with the "pruned" being returned to existence. And if that happens, the writers of Red Dwarf's Inquisitor should perhaps consider legal action :) 

Edited by Werthead

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4 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

The other option that occurred to me (borrowing a plot twist from a Doctor Who episode), when you’re dealing with people whose memories have been wiped, the TVA could’ve only existed for a week and we wouldn’t know any different. They’re presented with jobs under the guise that they need to preserve the sacred timeline, when actually what they’re doing is creating it, whittling down all the other ones gradually. So all these instances of ‘why didn’t the TVA do x y or z’ are because they only just started doing the job and have a long way to go.

I don't think this works after the last episode. We saw Ravenna as a hunter when Sylvie was a child. 

Another random thing I meant to mention, Mobius mentioned Vampire Variants! I wonder if he knows Morbius. Or a version of Wesley Snipes who paid his taxes. 

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That episode was fun and all but still fundamentally marred by the glaring stupidity of why they aren't just killing both Lokis.  I suppose this will perhaps be addressed in the future, but I'm not optimistic nor inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Phase 4 seems to be rapidly embodying that infamous quote from certain showrunners about narratively making sense because they want it to.

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12 minutes ago, DMC said:

That episode was fun and all but still fundamentally marred by the glaring stupidity of why they aren't just killing both Lokis.  I suppose this will perhaps be addressed in the future, but I'm not optimistic nor inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Phase 4 seems to be rapidly embodying that infamous quote from certain showrunners about narratively making sense because they want it to.

To be fair, the old trope of the villain wanting to kill the heroes in style and gloat a little was applied here.

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Just now, Corvinus85 said:

To be fair, the old trope of the villain wanting to kill the heroes in style and gloat a little was applied here.

Why do robots need to gloat?!?

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Why do robots need to gloat?!?

I find your question offensive towards the organically challenged. 

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I think there must be more to that scene, because it was obviously staged for the two Lokis. Ravenna didn’t seem shocked that they were robots, so why go to all that trouble? Why are they trying to convince Lokis that the timekeepers are real?

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