The future of Catholicism

[Zorral]

7 minutes ago, Week said:

....Catholic Church's MO since it's founding.

For curiosity's sake, what date would you pick as to the Roman Catholic Church's foundation?

I tend to hard date the foundation with it becoming the state religion, ten years after the 313 Edict of Constantine, which then, almost immediately, both state and Church instituted officially the policy of no dissent and complete intolerance.  This attitude spilled over quickly to the Eastern Church, as we see even before Justinian's official campaign for a Unity Church ruling over all Christians, which was a primary driver of his western military campaigns.  But the split had been made quite some time ago and wasn't to be plastered over.  But both Churches did terrible things to the Christians who had other ways of believing in Christ.  O lordessa, did they ever.

The Official Office of the Inquisition per se though, wasn't established  until the 15th C. The earliest, largest, and best-known of these was the Spanish Inquisition, established by Pope Sixtus IV in a papal bull of Nov. 1, 1478. This being Spain and the Reconquista, it was aimed at that time primarily against Conversos, Jews who had converted to Christianity. Whereas, as mentioned above, the earlier organized persecutions by the Church were aimed at European non-Catholic Christians -- already in the 12th century, continuing their hunt for heretics well into the 14th century -- when presumably the Black Death put an end to it -- for a while.

[DMC]

25 minutes ago, Week said:

In truth, everyone should expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Obligatory....

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Fillyjonk Eilhart said:

You obviously didn't grow up in a country where everyone else is catholic. It's really really hard to fit in if you're not. Children will make fun of you and adults will talk behind your back (not my personal experience but I've seen plenty). 

Yeah, I can’t relate to that at all being Jewish and growing up in quasi anti-Semitic Christian America.   

[Filippa Eilhart]

well there you go then, there’s your answer. That’s why people don’t leave.

[Week]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

I hate to tell you this, but if you donate money to any organization you’ve likely contributed to an organization that covered up sexual abuse. It’s in the nature of men to protect their empires. Support the Boy Scouts? They denied sexual abuse. Go to any school where you paid tuition? Sexual abuse, discrimination based on any and every category. Served in the military? Holy shit, you bloody criminal. Let’s not even talk about where your taxes at every level went to.

Human beings suck.

Boy scouts? Hell, no.

Public college? Probably yes, though without the scale of world-wide ongoing abuse with payments in a tens of billions.

Military? Hell, no.

Taxes? I addressed as these are compulsory.

Is there another non-government organization worldwide that has directly lead to as much abuse and suffering as the Catholic Church? Perhaps criminal syndicates. At least their raison d'etre is crime.

[Ormond]

5 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

The percentage is irrelevant. The Catholic church has spent billions covering up how its leaders have sexually abused children while actively enabling its predators. 

No, the percentage is not irrelevant. I don't know how much the RC church in various places has spent to cover up abuse, but I am sure that it is a small percentage of of the total amount of money it's spent on all of its activities during the last decade, and therefore to me it is perfectly reasonable for a devout Roman Catholic to continue to give money to the church, no matter how much they disagree with that particular activity.

 

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Obligatory....

 

I expected somebody would post the other video.

 

[Ormond]

39 minutes ago, Week said:

Is there another non-government organization worldwide that has directly lead to as much abuse and suffering as the Catholic Church? Perhaps criminal syndicates. At least their raison d'etre is crime.

I think there are many other religious organizations (Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses, to name two) that have been much more abusive and caused more suffering in relation to their size and the percentage of their members they have seriously harmed than the Roman Catholic church has. 

[lacuna]

One wonders what would happen to, say, McDonalds, if it were discovered that for decades, a non-trivial minority among the staff had been habitually (at least in some cases) raping children, and were being protected from prosecution by store managers, franchise owners, regional managers and chief executives.

Call me dramatic, but I'd certainly never set foot in a McDonalds again*, except perhaps to light the fuses.

*Not that I do anyway, it's vile.

[Prue]

I think it's very convenient for many religions / organisations that the press and public attention only seems to focus on the Roman Catholic church as if it was the only place where abuse happened. As you can see from the 'me too' debate and occasional reports on Boy Scouts / evangelicals / other religions / sports coaches.... , pedocriminals always try to get access to potential victims. It's a good idea to be aware of this risk in any organisation where such criminals might get access to children, and think of how to protect children and about how to deal with the perpetrators.  

[Week]

37 minutes ago, Ormond said:

I think there are many other religious organizations (Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses, to name two) that have been much more abusive and caused more suffering in relation to their size and the percentage of their members they have seriously harmed than the Roman Catholic church has. 

As a thoroughly anti-religion* atheist ...

"You're makin' my point!"

Are we really calling Scientology a religion at this point? What does it say about the Catholic Church that one has to invoke Scientology as a "well at least it isn't that bad"!?

I'm close with folks in the Congregational Church community (UCC) which, while far from perfect, feels positively futuristic compared to the anachronistic Catholic Church. Voting on a pastor? Welcoming LGBTQ+? Meaningful drive for change in a local community?

[Week]

3 minutes ago, Prue said:

It's a good idea to be aware of this risk in any organisation where such criminals might get access to children, and think of how to protect children and about how to deal with the perpetrators.  

It's power structure, global influence, and opacity to outsiders is fundamental to it's abuse of children (and avoidance of accountability) and thus wholly different from your other examples. Though some certainly have similarities on a smaller scale. Transparency and accountability structures to self audit are absolutely critical.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Ormond said:

No, the percentage is not irrelevant. I don't know how much the RC church in various places has spent to cover up abuse, but I am sure that it is a small percentage of of the total amount of money it's spent on all of its activities during the last decade, and therefore to me it is perfectly reasonable for a devout Roman Catholic to continue to give money to the church, no matter how much they disagree with that particular activity.

 

 

Strongly disagree. The percentage is irrelevant because of how engrained the practice of covering abuses up is in the structure and hierarchy of the Church. It's a systemic problem, not just a few one off events.

I also agree with Week. Pointing out that other religions are more abusive is not a good defense of the RCC. 

[IFR]

I don't find it convincing that the Catholic religion is uniquely harmful. It's a structure that developed around a system of beliefs that is open to abuse by those who govern it. It was historically brutal, but it's easy enough to identify societies totally independent of Catholic thinking that were comparably brutal.

Other religions pose similar problems in corruption or destructive manifestations (Muslim and Jewish religions, for instance). One can try to argue magnitude of destructiveness, but to consider that one also has consider the extent of power the religion accumulated to be destructive.

Secular ideologies are also prone to abuses. There are the obvious ones of capitalism and communism, but anything from racial egalitarianism to feminism is susceptible to abuse. Should these ideologies develop their own institutions that are as massive and have as long a history as the Catholic Church, I think it's fair to speculate that there's a decent chance that the magnitude of their abuses would measure up to that of the Catholic Church.

I don't think you can even argue that the retrograde effect of the Catholic religion on scientific understanding is especially pernicious. There are many examples of secularist societies frequently obstructing science (Stalinism is a particularly egregious example).

The problems of the Catholic Church is simply a manifestation of people being people. End the Catholic church and I suspect the net suffering imposed by human beings will not be even slightly affected.

[Week]

19 minutes ago, IFR said:

I don't find it convincing that the Catholic religion is uniquely harmful. It's a structure that developed around a system of beliefs that is open to abuse by those who govern it. It was historically brutal, but it's easy enough to identify societies totally independent of Catholic thinking that were comparably brutal.

The structure of the Roman Catholic Church - to be clear. Catholicism has its issues - as all religions do, particularly with fundamentalists, however that is separate. From the Pope down - the opacity, control by bishops and above (all men), and, yes, human nature but in a uniquely unaccountable structure.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/08/23/the-real-reason-the-catholic-church-remains-plagued-by-abuse-scandals/

 

[Knight Of Winter]

Covering up pedophiles is absurdly disgusting and has cost them some believers, for sure, but it's not Catholic's church fundamental problem. Their most pressing issue is (and has been for last decades, of not century and more) that it's losing its purpose, at least in the West. That's not unique to them, rather to all forms of organized religion - but since they're ones who, along with Protestantism, had the highest number of believers, naturally they're the ones who are hit the most.

Long time ago, Catholic faith meant something. It provided answers to its adherents. It provided meaning. It provided comfort and sense and community. It connected thousands and millions of strangers and gave them a common cause to believe in. It inspired many outstanding works of art - be it cathedrals, paintings, books or statues. Heck, go far enough into European past and you'll find that, at some point, they were the main source of charity and education,

That was the situation some time ago, and while this sentiment is not completely gone today, it's becoming less and less true for ever-growing number of people. Catholic faith (together with organized religion in general) is steadily losing ground in the West - and I suspect they'll start to lose grounds elsewhere once other areas reach western standards. Simply put, it's not keeping up with current times. It has no answers to problems that ail people of the 21st century. They're too dogmatic and too inflexible. And if something like to e.g. accepting homosexuality still represents an issue for them, how the hell are they going to cope with all the ethical challenges near future will bring - artificial intelligence, cloning, transhumanism etc. It won't - and it will slowly become even less relevant than it is today.

[IFR]

11 minutes ago, Week said:

The structure of the Roman Catholic Church - to be clear. Catholicism has its issues - as all religions do, particularly with fundamentalists, however that is separate. From the Pope down - the opacity, control by bishops and above (all men), and, yes, human nature but in a uniquely unaccountable structure.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/08/23/the-real-reason-the-catholic-church-remains-plagued-by-abuse-scandals/

 

Good article!

I am aware of the structure of the religion that promotes abuse. Allow me to observe that currently China is committing genocide and it has nothing to do with Catholicism. While it's hard to compare atrocities, as bad as the situation with the Catholic church, many would consider the situation in China worse.

The point being that while the Catholic church is a source of abuse, it is not the reason for abuse to occur, and the church's absence would not remove abuses committed by people in any way. The abuses would just be expressed in another form.

This isn't a hard assertion that can be proven, of course. But I think observing social structures and human behaviors substantiates the claim.

[Week]

27 minutes ago, IFR said:

Good article!

I am aware of the structure of the religion that promotes abuse. Allow me to observe that currently China is committing genocide and it has nothing to do with Catholicism. While it's hard to compare atrocities, as bad as the situation with the Catholic church, many would consider the situation in China worse.

The point being that while the Catholic church is a source of abuse, it is not the reason for abuse to occur, and the church's absence would not remove abuses committed by people in any way. The abuses would just be expressed in another form.

This isn't a hard assertion that can be proven, of course. But I think observing social structures and human behaviors substantiates the claim.

Another example where - hey! - the Catholic Church ain't so bad compared to this other organization committing atrocities. To which, sure - yeah - there are some groups that are worse. Particularly authoritarian governments. Their goals and purpose are far different than a religious institution that, purportedly, seeks to spread its message and do at least some good.

Although this is certainly out of my area of expertise, I'd argue that the authoritarian regime in China has a lot of similarities to the regime of the Catholic Church which enables for the atrocities of both. An unaccountable, secret and concentrated power structure at the top that wields enormous influence ...

Also, I'm finding it VERY shocking that anyone would argue that the widespread and ongoing abuse of minors and cover up is somehow expected (therefore excusable??) due to "human nature".

We haven't even broached the enormous, obscene wealth that the church has - land money, artifacts, etc. 

[S John]

Raised Catholic and have come to realize that my primary problem with the Church is really that I’m best classified as agnostic and I don’t believe in any of it anymore. I think as a kid the consequences of not believing scared me into genuinely trying but I’m honestly not sure that I ever really believed it. I’m not going to debate theology with my parents/ grandparents, I’m not going to poison my son against religion, and I’m content to go through the ritual motions when form requires it - but I ain’t getting up early on Sundays anymore unless it’s to go fishing.

personally I think that for most people raised in the church who have left it is not because of the sex scandals but because they have gradually secularized their lives.  Clearly there are victims and families of victims who obviously and rightfully left the church due to these issues and that kind of bad publicity doesn’t do much for finding new converts, but I think for the typical lapsed Catholic it has more to do with the evolving beliefs of each individual than the church.

I think for most Catholics the child sex scandals feel a bit abstract. I’ve been a part of many parishes and really haven’t experienced or even heard of anything untoward happening outside of the news. It’s a bit like US mass shootings in that regard. Like we all know this happens and is terrible and happens WAY to much, but most of us have never experienced it or know anyone who has.

[IFR]

21 minutes ago, Week said:

 

21 minutes ago, Week said:

An unaccountable, secret and concentrated power structure at the top that wields enormous influence ...

Yes, there are quite a few institutes such as this. It seems to be a habit of organized communities.

21 minutes ago, Week said:

Also, I'm finding it VERY shocking that anyone would argue that the widespread and ongoing abuse of minors and cover up is somehow expected (therefore excusable??) due to "human nature".

Sexual abuse is one manifestation of an abuse of power. I do believe that if you have enough powerful individuals, some will assuredly abuse that power and use the established structure to their advantage. I do think that has been a pattern of human behavior.

I'm a little puzzled why you think I'm suggesting that one should excuse the Catholic church? It's perfectly understandable why one would be outraged by the church and want to hold it accountable. I've never suggested otherwise.