The future of Catholicism

[Zorral]

One thing to think about as to the role of women in pre-Islamic Arabia -- Muhammed's first wife was his boss's daughter; she was instrumental in managing in the trading the business in which he was employed.

Generally in nomadic societies women are in charge of the commercial activities of the family, clan and tribe, in everything from manufacture, to overseeing the markets, doing the actual buying and selling.  This was the case on the Eurasian steppes including the various Hordic groups, the Turks, including those out of whom the Ottoman dynasty arose.  And even after converting to Islam, those Hordic groups who converted (others became Christians, some even Jewish) to Islam, women remained in charge of the commercial side of their lives.  The Byzantines's upper class women though, were generally very much kept out of public life by the later days -- unless empresses and the like, which is true everywhere and time.  

There are also notable female warriors among these tribes before and after Islam.

If I'm recalling correctly -- it was the groups who conquered Egypt in the 7th century, which evolved eventually into the  - Mamluk dynasties, then the Janissary dynasties, where women tended to be kept at home.

But it was astonishing how much business could be and was transacted by women behind harem walls, as long as they had the capital to get started. Even there money made huge distinctions as what one could or could not do, just as in monasteries and convents.

 

 

 

[Week]

Classy. Really working to stay relevant to the younger generations.

 

 

[Fragile Bird]

I’ve repeatedly said conservative Catholics in the US are in a class of crazy all of their own.

[SeanF]

22 hours ago, Zorral said:

One thing to think about as to the role of women in pre-Islamic Arabia -- Muhammed's first wife was his boss's daughter; she was instrumental in managing in the trading the business in which he was employed.

Generally in nomadic societies women are in charge of the commercial activities of the family, clan and tribe, in everything from manufacture, to overseeing the markets, doing the actual buying and selling.  This was the case on the Eurasian steppes including the various Hordic groups, the Turks, including those out of whom the Ottoman dynasty arose.  And even after converting to Islam, those Hordic groups who converted (others became Christians, some even Jewish) to Islam, women remained in charge of the commercial side of their lives.  The Byzantines's upper class women though, were generally very much kept out of public life by the later days -- unless empresses and the like, which is true everywhere and time.  

There are also notable female warriors among these tribes before and after Islam.

If I'm recalling correctly -- it was the groups who conquered Egypt in the 7th century, which evolved eventually into the  - Mamluk dynasties, then the Janissary dynasties, where women tended to be kept at home.

But it was astonishing how much business could be and was transacted by women behind harem walls, as long as they had the capital to get started. Even there money made huge distinctions as what one could or could not do, just as in monasteries and convents.

 

 

 

I think one might see women doing a lot of work, in violent societies, that would be done by men in more peaceful societies.  Where violent death amongst men is very common, it makes sense for women to have important roles as property owners and merchants. Sparta was one such, which almost uniquely among Grek city states allowed women to own land.  That made sense in a society where the role of male citizens was to be full time soldiers

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I think one might see women doing a lot of work, in violent societies, that would be done by men in more peaceful societies.  Where violent death amongst men is very common, it makes sense for women to have important roles as property owners and merchants. Sparta was one such, which almost uniquely among Grek city states allowed women to own land.  That made sense in a society where the role of male citizens was to be full time soldiers

In most African cultures, particularly those of West Africa -- long before either the Muslims or the "Christians" arrived, women ran the markets and oversaw the market places.  The presiding deities to whom the markets are sacred, are gendered female -- and are to this day.  To this day, particularly in cultures of Nigeria, Ghana, Benin, etc., women are still in charge of these matters. These cultures were no more non-peaceable or peaceable than any other.

Many African cultures are, to our eyes these days, extremely gendered as to who or what.  But a lot of that is changing throughout the countries there now, like much else.  And not all of it for the better, particularly the Christian evangelical drive that women are supposed to stay home and out of business -- just like their drive that gay people must be driven out of communities and /or killed.  Or those afflicted with albinoism are witches and must be killed, and so on and so forth.

 

 

[Darzin]

I do wonder how long the Western Left will. continue to pull their punches with the Church? There is a kind of detente right now with people like AOC being nominally Catholic and liberal bishops giving mealy mouthed statements on LGBT issues. But I don't know how long the truce will last. In 50 years I could easily see the church being named a hate group in Western countries and the children of zoomers viewing it like the KKK.

[TheLastWolf]

This pissed me off big time 

[argonak]

On 7/28/2021 at 11:59 PM, Darzin said:

I do wonder how long the Western Left will. continue to pull their punches with the Church? There is a kind of detente right now with people like AOC being nominally Catholic and liberal bishops giving mealy mouthed statements on LGBT issues. But I don't know how long the truce will last. In 50 years I could easily see the church being named a hate group in Western countries and the children of zoomers viewing it like the KKK.

I think the problem is that the church is in a bad spot.  It's got the deer in a headlights feeling of seeing mass-atheisms and general apathy heading towards it like a freight train.  So its having to choose between evolving to stay relevant and losing the hardcore religious nerds of Ya'al'Queda, or watching an entire generation just ditch it completely.   

I think humanity is overall harmed by religion having any power over our institutions or culture.  But there seems to be a large number of people who cannot make it through life without it as a core belief to center themselves on.   Without an organized religion, that segment of the population just falls into any cult or personality worship they run into.  Humanity really needs to figure this out, but we don't seem any closer to it.

[Zorral]

More to the point, globally, the evangelicals are literally eating the Roman Church's lunch, breakfast and dinner -- i.e. growing so fast and getting all the donations, tithes, legacies, etc.

[argonak]

24 minutes ago, Zorral said:

More to the point, globally, the evangelicals are literally eating the Roman Church's lunch, breakfast and dinner -- i.e. growing so fast and getting all the donations, tithes, legacies, etc.

As an atheist, evangelicals are scarier than Catholics because they don't have some larger organization that can be used to negotiate or push back against.  They just spread and then force everyone to live to their rules by taking control of local school districts and city governments.

[Zorral]

48 minutes ago, argonak said:

As an atheist, evangelicals are scarier than Catholics because they don't have some larger organization that can be used to negotiate or push back against.  They just spread and then force everyone to live to their rules by taking control of local school districts and city governments.

There are various sections within the Church's administrative and doctrinal hierarchy that are authentically intelligent, intellectual and rational, even about faith -- though, of course there are many that are venal, corrupt and criminal too.

However, the evangelicals have none of italicized and massive amounts of the bolded.

Nor is it the Church calling out for the literal burning of witches in regions of Africa, but the evangelicals.

[Which Tyler]

 

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 7/29/2021 at 6:59 PM, Darzin said:

I do wonder how long the Western Left will. continue to pull their punches with the Church? There is a kind of detente right now with people like AOC being nominally Catholic and liberal bishops giving mealy mouthed statements on LGBT issues. But I don't know how long the truce will last. In 50 years I could easily see the church being named a hate group in Western countries and the children of zoomers viewing it like the KKK.

There are plenty of people - many on the Left - who identify as cultural/non-practising/Easter and Christmas Catholics, while rolling one's eyes at certain Church stances (especially on contraception) is a time-honoured tradition. It will never be seen as a hate group for that very reason.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Evangelicals are the Church as it existed in its earliest incarnation in the first and second centuries, driven by personal belief in God and a passionate commitment to the cause of spreading the Faith above all else. Before the religion became institutionalised under the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church.

It is a return to Christianity’s roots. That’s why it is the fastest (perhaps the only) growing sector of the Christian community.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Spreading more than actually practicing what it preaches, that's for sure.

[Fragile Bird]

7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Evangelicals are the Church as it existed in its earliest incarnation in the first and second centuries, driven by personal belief in God and a passionate commitment to the cause of spreading the Faith above all else. 

Like, are you nuts or what?

[Fragile Bird]

And in other breaking news, someone analyzed cell phone traffic and is suggesting priests in the US at all levels of the church hierarchy have been using Grindr. 
 

Better than altar boys.

[TheLastWolf]

9 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Evangelicals are the Church as it existed in its earliest incarnation in the first and second centuries, driven by personal belief in God and a passionate commitment to the cause of spreading the Faith above all else. Before the religion became institutionalised under the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church.

It is a return to Christianity’s roots. That’s why it is the fastest (perhaps the only) growing sector of the Christian community.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Spreading more than actually practicing what it preaches, that's for sure.

You mean super-spreading.

Either way. When this is going back to origins of Christianity, I'd like to know three things.

1. Where's Waldo, or Jesus? Nah, I am sure I meant Jesus.
2. Where are the Roman legions.
3. That 30 pieces of silver, is that amount fixed or does it get adjusted to cover the inflation of two thousand years.

I am just asking for a friend.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

You mean super-spreading.

Either way. When this is going back to origins of Christianity, I'd like to know three things.

1. Where's Waldo, or Jesus? Nah, I am sure I meant Jesus.
2. Where are the Roman legions.
3. That 30 pieces of silver, is that amount fixed or does it get adjusted to cover the inflation of two thousand years.

I am just asking for a friend.

If we’re just asking questions here, did that Jesus fella have a birth certificate, or was the 25^th day of December arbitrarily picked long after he supposedly died? I’m sure it has nothing to do with preexisting pagan celebrations of the winter solstice…